StarDestroyer.Net BBS

We all saw the awesome battle between Obi-Wan and Boba Fett.

Now, Wong came to some different conclusions than I did, albeit a matter of interpretation than actualy disagreement. basically, on his site, he notes that an exceptional human with great equipement doesn't stand up to a Jedi.

My viewpoint is different. I think the battle basically proves that the Jedi are great, but not truly "above" the best of their species. Its a difference of degree, not kind. After all, Jango was underequipped - he effectively had two hand blasters and a flamethrower and the whipcord.

Obiwan had the lightsaber, which, while limited in range is arguably more dangerous. Those bloody things could slice right through Jango's armor, and present an iron defense against blasters. So Jango tried his best to keep Obi-Wan from using it, and largely succeeded. The battle as ultimately a draw as Jango just needed to get to Dooku/Tyrannus.

Later, of course, Jango fell victim to Mace Windu (after coolly capping at least one Jedi and one huge beasty). His mistake? He should never have goten so close, surprise or no. The error is understandable, however. Jango probably did not know that part of the Jedi's legendary speed is because they are reacting before the event.

So, my interpretation of events is that some piddling technology and elite skills (which of course the Jedi have, too) evens out the differences between Jedi and non-Force Sensitive to degree where its not really important. And after all, some descriptions of force-sensitivity imply that simply developing one's abilities to those levels is a sort of low-level force sensitivity.

Personally, i'd say that the powers of the more skilled Jedi or Sith make personal weaponry much less effective against them. For example, even Jango Fett's training wouldn't have protected him against Vader's ability to force-choke him, or his ability to stop blaster bolts.

Apparently, you didn't notice the fact that the Jedi were weak in AOTC or the fact that Obi-Wan was trying to capture rather than kill. Are you trying to be deliberately dense?

Despite all his gadgets Jango was losing at Kamino against Obi-Wan.

He even tells so his son in the novel.

And to enter the arena-battle was a stupid thing to do, if you ask me. One has to wonder, if Jango was really as smart as always claimed. Why didn´t he lean back and enjoy the show? Could it be, that Dooku was influencing his mind?

Besides that i haven´t noticed huge differences in Jedi-performance between TPM and AotC.

Did the Jedi being weakened refer to the entire spectrum of their force-powers or just their foresight?

FTeik wrote:Besides that i haven´t noticed huge differences in Jedi-performance between TPM and AotC.

Yoda seemed to think they were there. He wanted to keep their loss of Force use a secret, because he feared that their enemies would gang up and destroy them if it got out.

Personally, I think that Jango's death was caused by the failure of his equipment. After his death you can see his rocket pack throwing out sparks. So, I think he tried to jump away, but his rocket pack somehow damaged during the beast accident.
I also think that the 'loss of Force' only applies to the large scale clear- and foresight, not to their personal abilities. They were able to stop many blasts. It was not possible without the Force, since they did not have extraordinery reflexes (it was demonstrated by Kenobi on Kamino (novelisation of AotC) when he lost the focus and was hit several times by Jango), 'only' Force precog.
(In the Thrawn triology Luke, who got a more combat oriented training, was unable to do this without the Force. He was able to deflect two blasts, but knew he could not do it for any period of time.)

FTeik wrote:Despite all his gadgets Jango was losing at Kamino against Obi-Wan.

He even tells so his son in the novel.

And to enter the arena-battle was a stupid thing to do, if you ask me. One has to wonder, if Jango was really as smart as always claimed. Why didn´t he lean back and enjoy the show? Could it be, that Dooku was influencing his mind?

Besides that i haven´t noticed huge differences in Jedi-performance between TPM and AotC.

Did the Jedi being weakened refer to the entire spectrum of their force-powers or just their foresight?

I thought the differences were pretty large. In TPM Qui-Gon and Obiwan were blocking rapid fire blaster bolts from a bunch of different attackers, sending them whereever they chose, while in AotC, the Jedi (who weren't outnumbered nearly as much as Obiwan and Qui-Gon) got slaughtered, and the one who tried to take the fight to the balcony couldn't even block pistol shots from Jango. I also doubt highly that Dooku would have been a match for Yoda at full strength.

There were a lot more droids (and especially super-battledroids and droideka, that are superior to the droids seen in TPM) in the arena.

And the Jedi killed by Jango on the balcony was probabely contentrating on Dooku instead on Jango.

Yes, Jango´s jetpack was damaged by the Reek, but that changes nothing, that he shouldn´t have joinded the battle in the first place.

And it should be clear, that Dooku would have been a better match for Yoda (not to forget, that re-inforcements were on their way), if he hadn´t had to fight Obi-Wan and Anakin first.

FTeik wrote:Yes, Jango´s jetpack was damaged by the Reek, but that changes nothing, that he shouldn´t have joinded the battle in the first place.

Agree.
Well, I do not know, maybe he wanted to prevent Kenobi and Windu from joining again (according to the novelisation, the droids were no match to their pair), or tried to kill Windu for the moral effect (to force the jedis to surrend).

FTeik wrote:And the Jedi killed by Jango on the balcony was probabely contentrating on Dooku instead on Jango.

If I remember well he arrived to the bar of the balcon which is not a stable position for any fighting. I think he needed time to regain stability and concentration. (Needless to say that the end of a jump allways causes physical stress which confuses or even breaks concentration.)

FTeik wrote:There were a lot more droids (and especially super-battledroids and droideka, that are superior to the droids seen in TPM) in the arena.

There were proportionally less droids, a lot less.

And the Jedi killed by Jango on the balcony was probabely contentrating on Dooku instead on Jango.

In TPM they blocked shots they didn't even see fired.

FTeik wrote:*snip*
And it should be clear, that Dooku would have been a better match for Yoda (not to forget, that re-inforcements were on their way), if he hadn´t had to fight Obi-Wan and Anakin first.

Doesn't change that Yoda should have whooped his ass had he been at full strength. We're comparing someone who's the strongest natural force user known and has been training for centuries to someone who isn't even a Master.

Darth Wong wrote:

FTeik wrote:Besides that i haven´t noticed huge differences in Jedi-performance between TPM and AotC.

Yoda seemed to think they were there. He wanted to keep their loss of Force use a secret, because he feared that their enemies would gang up and destroy them if it got out.

But he never said that the loss of Force-powers occured between TPM and AOTC. They could have occured prior to episode 1 and were just not mentioned until Clones.

As for the Jedi on the balcony, well there was a Dark Lord of the Sith nearby. If Jango was alone, even if the Jedi was concentrating on something else, things might have gone a fair bit differently.

Maybe if Boba and Jango Fett didn't suffer from lethal amounts of stupidity they would be a match for a Jedi. I never got the whole "Jango and Boba badass thing." I guess you have to read EU to really get into that. I just see two characters who die because they made the most tactically insane decisions. And these guys are "the best" of the Bounty Hunter community?

I don't think any normal person is a match for a ready Jedi. Jango Fett with all his toys was losing in unarmed combat to an unarmed and unarmored Jedi.

Kenobi had a rocket fired at him, ship-scale blasters hitting the ground mere feet from him, and a helmet smashed into his face and he showed no signs of outward injury. Isn't Jango's armor supposed to have strength enhancements too (I don't know on this, but I've heard people rant about it). So we see a Jedi beating back all off Jango's attacks except for the head but with a helmet, and he falls down but immediately recovers.

Exactly what kind of person is able to win against an opponent who can leap more than 40 feet, run over 60 mph, and move objects/people with hand gestures?

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:

FTeik wrote:There were a lot more droids (and especially super-battledroids and droideka, that are superior to the droids seen in TPM) in the arena.

There were proportionally less droids, a lot less.

Is there a AotC-version out i´m not aware of?

The Jedi are first spread over the entire ranks and then come together at the centre of the arena, which allows the droids to enter by the hundreds (not to forget the Geonosians and their big and small sound-cannons).

And what were Kenobi and Jinn fighting in TPM?

A squad of the ordinary droids in front of the door to the conference-room, two droidekas, that sent them running as soon as they discovered the new-arrivals had shields, one droid on his platform, another squad when they freed the queen and the few guards inside the hangar.

In every case they had the moment of surpise or didn´t stay long enough for more droids to arrive.

And coming back to the arena-battle, if fifty droids concentrate fire on five out of hundred Jedi, how do you expect the other ninty-five Jedi to deflect the incoming bolts?

And the Jedi killed by Jango on the balcony was probabely contentrating on Dooku instead on Jango.

In TPM they blocked shots they didn't even see fired.

Bolts they were able to concentrate on. And they hadn´t to regain balance.

Jinn and Kenobi were perhaps better than the Jedi killed by Jango.

Dooku was limiting the abilities of the Jedi.

Take one of them.

FTeik wrote:*snip*
And it should be clear, that Dooku would have been a better match for Yoda (not to forget, that re-inforcements were on their way), if he hadn´t had to fight Obi-Wan and Anakin first.

Doesn't change that Yoda should have whooped his ass had he been at full strength. We're comparing someone who's the strongest natural force user known and has been training for centuries to someone who isn't even a Master.

Why?

Because he is almost nine-hundred years old?

Because the Jedi never had to fight other force-users in a serious fight for over thousand years?

And Anakin is stronger in the force than Yoda and he loses.

And Dooku was a Jedi-Master (Master to Qui-Gonn). And as Yoda´s former Padawan he should know better, than anybody else, what his former Master is capable of.

Smiling Bandit wrote:We all saw the awesome battle between Obi-Wan and Boba Fett.

Now, Wong came to some different conclusions than I did, albeit a matter of interpretation than actualy disagreement. basically, on his site, he notes that an exceptional human with great equipement doesn't stand up to a Jedi.

My viewpoint is different. I think the battle basically proves that the Jedi are great, but not truly "above" the best of their species. Its a difference of degree, not kind. After all, Jango was underequipped - he effectively had two hand blasters and a flamethrower and the whipcord.

Obiwan had the lightsaber, which, while limited in range is arguably more dangerous. Those bloody things could slice right through Jango's armor, and present an iron defense against blasters. So Jango tried his best to keep Obi-Wan from using it, and largely succeeded. The battle as ultimately a draw as Jango just needed to get to Dooku/Tyrannus.

Jango had a vast equipment advantage (he had ranged weapons, explosives, a fucking ship, and he could fly) and still he was unable to defeat Obi-wan.

TheFeniX wrote:Maybe if Boba and Jango Fett didn't suffer from lethal amounts of stupidity they would be a match for a Jedi. I never got the whole "Jango and Boba badass thing." I guess you have to read EU to really get into that. I just see two characters who die because they made the most tactically insane decisions. And these guys are "the best" of the Bounty Hunter community?

I agree. I made a thread some time ago deatailing Jango's mistakes at Kamino and Geonosis. The underlying theme is: Stay as far from the Jedi as possible! In the movie we see Jango not once but twice fly with ARMS REACH of a Jedi to battle him, when he's got his blasters right there.

Boba, OTOH, doesn't seem to suffer from this problem.

I don't think any normal person is a match for a ready Jedi. Jango Fett with all his toys was losing in unarmed combat to an unarmed and unarmored Jedi.

The only weapon he didn't use on Kamino was his flamethrower. I wonder if Jedi have any defense agaisnt that. Seeing as Mace was caught by surprise at Geonosis when Jango used his I don't think we can just write off them having no defense, but perhaps one that can't be used quite as quickly?

Kenobi had a rocket fired at him, ship-scale blasters hitting the ground mere feet from him, and a helmet smashed into his face and he showed no signs of outward injury.

Actually Obi-Wan should've been killed by both of those (he barely escaped them as it was) but according to the Inside the Worlds of EpII the platforms they were fighting on had shielding right under the surface (Why? To prevent lightning strikes? Taking off ships engines from burning a whole in them?) so the explosions created by Jango's heavy artillery was greatly dimished. Had these shields not been in place, Obi-Wan would've most certaintly been killed.

Isn't Jango's armor supposed to have strength enhancements too (I don't know on this, but I've heard people rant about it).

No. In fact, in the AOTC novelization Obi-Wan uses Jango's heavy armor againt him in an extended bit of the brawl we see from the movie.

Exactly what kind of person is able to win against an opponent who can leap more than 40 feet, run over 60 mph, and move objects/people with hand gestures?

Agreed. Look at TPM: 30+ armed Naboo police took "the long way around" to avoid fighting Darth Maul. Why would they have done this? Because Maul would've slaughtered them.

Smiling Bandit does make one insey tiny point, however, it has more to do with some people attitude towards jedi than the jedi themselves. No amount of skill could allow an ordinary human to beat a jedi like Obi-Wan or Mace. However, ordinary bob the jedi, is not Obi-Wan or Mace, yet people seem to act like all jedi are of that power, when we know of much weaker jedi. It was somewhat tiring to see Jedi vs. blank threads, and have people using the most extreme examples when the thread starter stated that is was a "normal strenghted" (not well worded but..) jedi. Jedi are very powerful and very skilled, but there are individuals who could beat JoeSchmoe Jedi, and some people seem to take this as a personal insult.

Jango Fett= Trained Mandalorian warrior

He had alreadybeen trained to fight Jedi and other powerful opponents, he wasn't just a "really skilled human". Mandalorians are tough bastards.

Back up a second here; why is it always assumed that Obi-Wan is an unusually skilled Jedi? Major characters are automatically assumed to be the best there is?

"Obi-Wan, you disappoint me"- Count Dooku.

Mace Windu and Yoda are top-flight Jedi. There is not a shred of evidence, however, that Obi-Wan was an exceptional Jedi.

Well, he was clearly more skilled than most Jedi at Geonosis, as he survived while most died.

Whether this equates to general superiority over the entire Jedi Order I do not know.

Howedar wrote:Well, he was clearly more skilled than most Jedi at Geonosis, as he survived while most died.

Non sequitur. Were the survivors of the US Ranger mission into Mogadishu superior to the ones who died?

You could say the same thing about any of the Jedi survivors; it does not necessarily mean that they were superior to the ones that got killed. There was too much firepower in the arena, not to mention area-effect weapons; remember that big cannon the Geonosians were using on them?

I think killing Darth Maul proves he as better than average combat skills at least, but certainly not at the level of Yoda or Mace Windu.

Darth Wong wrote:

Howedar wrote:Well, he was clearly more skilled than most Jedi at Geonosis, as he survived while most died.

Non sequitur. Were the survivors of the US Ranger mission into Mogadishu superior to the ones who died?

You could say the same thing about any of the Jedi survivors; it does not necessarily mean that they were superior to the ones that got killed. There was too much firepower in the arena, not to mention area-effect weapons; remember that big cannon the Geonosians were using on them?

I do not mean to say that Obi-wan was superior to every Jedi that died, because that would be stupid. What I mean to say is that there were a great many Jedi in the arena that were clearly far less skilled than Obi-wan, dying to pissant little attacks that he demonstrated resilience to.


You're right though, there could very well be some Jedi as skilled as Yoda who just were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It depends no the human. I'd give someone like Hiko fair odds at doing so. But others disagree. I think it depends on who's backing which character.

ShinjiGohan wrote:It depends no the human. I'd give someone like Hiko fair odds at doing so. But others disagree. I think it depends on who's backing which character.

Let me ask you one thing.

WHAT IN THE NINE LAYERS OF HELL ARE YOU FUCKING TALKING ABOUT?

Nine layers? I thought there were 18... never mind.

Having main characters surviving impossible odds (especially for a prequel which require these characters to be alive.) is typical of movies, so, we can't judge whether Obi-Wan really is more powerful or just a normal, everyday Jedi.
Of course, main characters like Qui-Gon aren't (or was it 'isn't? Bad grammar...) so lucky.


A normal human, maybe an especially good one would still, IMO, be no match for a Jedi. Say both of them use hand-to-hand combat instead of weapons. Jedi have the Force as their ally, and would know whether someone is going to hit here or there, and they would sense any tricks before a person can pull it off. Not to mention the Force can help a Jedi do stunts an especially good black-belter could dream of.

What I'm curious is... if a Sith Lord and a Jedi Master were to fight hand to hand, but were free to use their Force powers, who would win?

EDCP