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HOW TO THINK LIKE A JEDI-HATER

Step 1: assume that TK against inanimate objects is somehow a completely different ability than TK against living creatures. Not just easier, but actually requiring a whole different power. Sort of like thinking that punching a bag uses different muscles than punching a person.

Step 2: try to "prove" that the (presumably) distinct powers required for Force use against a living person must be related to the Dark Side, so Jedi cannot ordinarily use them.

Step 3: dismiss Luke's clear exception to this "rule" by simply babbling that he was teetering toward the Dark Side at the time, even though he was actually very calm and serene, not full of hate and anger.

Step 4: treat every incident of overconfidence or poor tactics as proof of your claims and your moronic assumption that Force TK somehow requires completely different powers when it's used against a human.

Wow. What brought this on?

Darth Yoshi wrote:Wow. What brought this on?

There's been numerous threads filled with such idiocy as trying to dispute Jedi TK.

Darth Yoshi wrote:Wow. What brought this on?

Namely, this one.

Darth Wong wrote:HOW TO THINK LIKE A JEDI-HATER

Step 1: assume that TK against inanimate objects is somehow a completely different ability than TK against living creatures. Not just easier, but actually requiring a whole different power. Sort of like thinking that punching a bag uses different muscles than punching a person.

Step 2: try to "prove" that the (presumably) distinct powers required for Force use against a living person must be related to the Dark Side, so Jedi cannot ordinarily use them.

Step 3: dismiss Luke's clear exception to this "rule" by simply babbling that he was teetering toward the Dark Side at the time, even though he was actually very calm and serene, not full of hate and anger.

Step 4: treat every incident of overconfidence or poor tactics as proof of your claims and your moronic assumption that Force TK somehow requires completely different powers when it's used against a human.

Number four, IMO, seems to be the linch pin in most arguments of these types. For the plot, the characters do not super uber their way out and thus detractors jump on that and diminish their powers. Were in most cases it can be explained by poor tactical judgment or being overwelmed with various situations happening at once.

While I agree that the jedi haters are pretty kooky, some of the Jedi wanking is just as bad. When someone claims that JoeSchmoe jedi can toast a planet, just cuz some sithlord with a sith artifact could, that oversteps a line.
With most of the Jedi haters VIed, it would seem that cutting down the Jedi wankers would be the next step.

Dark Hellion wrote:While I agree that the jedi haters are pretty kooky, some of the Jedi wanking is just as bad. When someone claims that JoeSchmoe jedi can toast a planet, just cuz some sithlord with a sith artifact could, that oversteps a line.
With most of the Jedi haters VIed, it would seem that cutting down the Jedi wankers would be the next step.

Er. what?

While I don't think that there is any impediment to Jedi choking or tossing others about, I doubt any light siders would really do it.

First of all, it generally involves taking life - something a Jedi will not do unless pressed and out of all other options. EDIT: In which case a lightsaber is generally more effective anyways. But there are exceptions, of course.

Secondly, this is more IMO but, in a duel or pitched battle its always struck me as something of a "low blow" for Jedi to do.

The idea that the Jedi will not use TK against living opponents comes from Yoda's speech on how the Force must be used for "Knowledge and defense. Never attack." In five movies we have never seen a non-Dark-leaning Jedi use the Force to attack a living opponent. We have seen:

- Anakin hurl Geonosians away from him. But he's already waaaay into the Dark Side by this point.

- Yoda throw Dooku's lightning back at him. But this is more of a counter-attack and falls under the umbrella of defense.

- Luke's use of the Force Choke on the Gamorreans. But this was really an intimidation tactic, not a true attack that threatened their lives.

So are the Jedi ethically allowed to TK living opponents? Though no movie examples exist, there are several instances in the EU of Vong being smashed by boulders and Darksiders being Force-thrown by Luke etc. In the movies the answer seems to be no, in the books and comics yes. IMO a good Jedi won't use the Force to directly kill a living opponent, but he will use it to gain an advantage and possibly disarm or incapacitate.

How is Anakin waaay into the dark side? He lost control for a few minutes. And he's good buddies with Palpatine. Thats all we've seen so far.

We've seen most Jedi lose control occasionally, and most of the Jedi Council is good buddies with Palpatine.

Eframepilot wrote:The idea that the Jedi will not use TK against living opponents comes from Yoda's speech on how the Force must be used for "Knowledge and defense. Never attack." In five movies we have never seen a non-Dark-leaning Jedi use the Force to attack a living opponent.

What is this "Dark-leaning Jedi" bullshit that's used to dismiss everything Luke ever did?

We have seen:

- Anakin hurl Geonosians away from him. But he's already waaaay into the Dark Side by this point.

More bullshit. He had an episode on Tatooine, but he's not going Sith on Geonosis.

Yoda throw Dooku's lightning back at him. But this is more of a counter-attack and falls under the umbrella of defense.

A "counter attack" is "defense" now? By that logic, a Jedi can use all the TK he wants, as long as the other guy attacks him first. Thank you for defeating yourself.

- Luke's use of the Force Choke on the Gamorreans. But this was really an intimidation tactic, not a true attack that threatened their lives.

The word "attack" is not limited to "murder attempt". He attacked them with the Force. You are twisting events to fit a preconceived conclusion. You have made one particular interpretation of the ramifications of a Yoda quote and you are mangling every incident you can find to fit that interpretation.

So are the Jedi ethically allowed to TK living opponents? Though no movie examples exist, there are several instances in the EU of Vong being smashed by boulders and Darksiders being Force-thrown by Luke etc. In the movies the answer seems to be no, in the books and comics yes.

They are ethically allowed to kill people, but not to use TK on them. Yeah, right, whatever you say

IMO a good Jedi won't use the Force to directly kill a living opponent, but he will use it to gain an advantage and possibly disarm or incapacitate.

So he can finish them off with his lightsabre. Luke killed a lot of people on Jabba's sail barge.

So are the Jedi ethically allowed to TK living opponents?

Sure. Most of the time, however, they don't really NEED to. I imagine the Jedi code of conduct is similar to a police officer's... "don't use excessive force" (no pun intended).

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Dark Hellion wrote:While I agree that the jedi haters are pretty kooky, some of the Jedi wanking is just as bad. When someone claims that JoeSchmoe jedi can toast a planet, just cuz some sithlord with a sith artifact could, that oversteps a line.
With most of the Jedi haters VIed, it would seem that cutting down the Jedi wankers would be the next step.

Er. what?

He's just blowing claims out of proportion.

Step 1: assume that TK against inanimate objects is somehow a completely different ability than TK against living creatures. Not just easier, but actually requiring a whole different power. Sort of like thinking that punching a bag uses different muscles than punching a person.

Step 2: try to "prove" that the (presumably) distinct powers required for Force use against a living person must be related to the Dark Side, so Jedi cannot ordinarily use them.

Step 3: dismiss Luke's clear exception to this "rule" by simply babbling that he was teetering toward the Dark Side at the time, even though he was actually very calm and serene, not full of hate and anger.

Step 4: treat every incident of overconfidence or poor tactics as proof of your claims and your moronic assumption that Force TK somehow requires completely different powers when it's used against a human.

In the movies, they rarely appeared to use it in a combat situation. Apparently the novels contradict that. I don't read any Star Wars literature that includes Jedi characters, though.

I'm not so convinced that Luke wasn't tasting a bit of the Dark Side, though. However, I first assumed he was actually using the mind trick on the Gamorrean when I was young.

Regardless, I'm not so sure of your assumption that the Jedi need to make sense in their actions. For all we know, the morality of the Force simply doesn't work in a fashion we could make sense of.

My personal opinion is that Jedi have a moral problem with using the Force to harm a living being. As Yoda said, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense... never for attack."

On Tatooine in ROTJ, Luke was arguably using the Force to defend himself against the Gamorreans, since he was otherwise unarmed. He wasn't angry or fearful, and there's no indication that he actually killed them, so I see no problem with it for a Jedi.

Anakin used telekinetic "shoves" against Geonosians in their factory, but they were armed with sonic weapons that his lightsabre couldn't deflect, so again it's a justifiable maneuver. We don't even know if they were seriously injured.

Yoda reflecting Dooku's lightning is obviously defensive. Notably, he never hurled any of the objects Dooku threw at him back. From what I saw, Yoda made a good-faith effort to kill Dooku with his lightsabre, but not with the Force itself.

To my knowledge, the only people we've actually seen use the Force on living beings with intent to kill are Sith.

It's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of doctrine.

Well, it's a fact that as often as not Jedi don't TK their opponents when they might have good reason to.

If they face an opponent that they can only defeat with the help of TK, they are as likely to lose as to win--and more likely to lose if the opponent doesn't look anything special and the Jedi doesn't know about his opponent's capabilities beforehand...

I imagine the Jedi code of conduct is similar to a police officer's... "don't use excessive force" (no pun intended).

Well here's a good analogy--a policeman, on facing a gun-toting criminal, would immediately whip out his own gun, but if it's some kind of policeman vs Bruce Lee like the vs's we imagine here, seeing that he has no gun, the policeman might just pull out his baton, and then gets his face punched in even though he could have just shot Bruce Lee if he knew.

A Jedi could well lose in a similar fashion against someone like Goku or Kenshin, who has neither blaster nor lightsabre. (seeing as they don't use TK even against some opponents who have both...)

(argh... but why would Goku need to rely on the Jedi underestimating him? )

Yet a Jedi in not policemen and while they follow a doctrine by no means are they going to slavish support it when fighting an opponent that means their demise.

And Jodo..either put up proof of Kenshin or shut the fuck up about it.

Ghost Rider wrote:Yet a Jedi in not policemen and while they follow a doctrine by no means are they going to slavish support it when fighting an opponent that means their demise.

And Jodo..either put up proof of Kenshin or shut the fuck up about it.

"We are not soldiers....."(Qui Gon, TPM)
"We are keepers of the peace, not warriors."(Mace Windu AOTC)

The EU also places the Jedi Knights as working in concert with the Judicals, which is a paramilitary organisation dedicated to law enforcement.

A policeman will pull out his weapon if he is threatened with loss of life/property or to prevent that threat to others. But he cannot use that weapon unless the opponent steps beyond certain boundaries, as exemplified by the Oppurtinity, Capability and Jeopardy MO.

So when in all these versus they are in an arena to the death they are to MEDIATE?!

Ghost Rider wrote:So when in all these versus they are in an arena to the death they are to MEDIATE?!

No. But to suggest that the Jedi will be the first to pull out a lightsabre, or to use TK on someone first is unlikely.

Come on, you know what will happen if some cop pulls out his piece in the middle of the street at a visibly unarmed suspect and fires?

I BEG you please, do not defile this thread further by pulling Dragonball Z shit in here. This is about the Jedi let's leave it there.

PainRack wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:So when in all these versus they are in an arena to the death they are to MEDIATE?!

No. But to suggest that the Jedi will be the first to pull out a lightsabre, or to use TK on someone first is unlikely.

Come on, you know what will happen if some cop pulls out his piece in the middle of the street at a visibly unarmed suspect and fires?

So a cop is not going to go for the kill when he KNOWS his life is on the line.

The point of these versus is not whether or not are they fighting to the death....the two parties already know this so answer the question.

The Jedi KNOWING that it's life is at stake is NOT going to go for the kill but mediate or try for a lesser method?

I personally would not accept any quotes from Pain Rack unless they can be verified as authentic by another party, as he has a history of misquoting and distorting context to suit his needs...

Wait Goku from Dragon ball Z is not a skill human.. He a from a race of Alien Supermen. Apparently his race has Power that are not normally associated with the common mortal, in a way he in the class of the Jedi a Paranormal.

A skill normal would be a great fencer, special forces or Martial artist. It doubt full that they could keep up with a Jedi with any standard weapon.

Bruce lee against Obi wan, Minus Obi wan Light saber, now that the what should be the standard. Can an Human like Bruce lee take on a jedi, Doubt it cause a Jedi can actually make those incredible jumps,withstand those massive blows and perform stunts that would come out of a Fictional Martial artist Bag of tricks. Arm now with a light saber, you need a small nuke to finish a jedi off.

Or to simply be better than a jedi.
No normal human will be, because frankly, jedi aren't normal humans.
But the prevailing attitude of nothing can beat our invincible jedi is a little annoying. No where near as annoying as the Jedi-Hater clan, but come on. Some of the Jedis feats were made under extreme duress, when adrenalin is flowing and normal people can do really fucked up shit as well.
Jedi are really damn good. But there are a lot of comic heros who can 1 on 1 with a jedi and win. It seems that some people on this board have a hard time accepting that their childhood heros can be beat by a comic character, its childish and shouldn't happen, but unfortunately does.