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I was reading my EGWT tonight in between pressing refresh *hits F5* When I noticed something:

The Planet based TL takes 10 seconds between shots, and has a reactor of 50 meters. Now assuming that the 10 sec is cooling time (I don't even want to think if this is building uop the charge time) and assuming that targeting and positioning is minimal (it should be, positioning is gears, and targeting shouldn't take too much), this means that a single shoit from a Planet TL is:

180 TT.

Ouch.

Only problem I see there is shouldn't that royally fuck up the atmosphere in the area as it passes?

The good news is: Our ground-based anti-starship turbolasers are extremely effective against any enemy capital ship.

The bad news is: When we fire them it tends to blow out all the atmosphere within a 5 kilometer radius of the gun.

(Yes, I realize that figure is horribly inaccurate*

Ender wrote:I was reading my EGWT tonight in between pressing refresh *hits F5* When I noticed something:

The Planet based TL takes 10 seconds between shots, and has a reactor of 50 meters. Now assuming that the 10 sec is cooling time (I don't even want to think if this is building uop the charge time) and assuming that targeting and positioning is minimal (it should be, positioning is gears, and targeting shouldn't take too much), this means that a single shoit from a Planet TL is:

180 TT.

Ouch.

That's nothing. If the outputs are correct, it takes MULTIPLE shots from a planetary TL to penetrate the sh ields and armor of a Star Destroyer - and thats simply to destroy the reactor, not destroy the ship directly.
In comparison, the heavy TL turrets on the ISD-1 can in fact penetrate the most heavily protected starships in a single hit. That suggests that at a minimum, a HTL is about twice that of a planetary TL (although given the apparently smaller dimensions, its possible this is achieved through a much longer recharge rate, or its possible the planetary TL is more heavily armored.)

On top of that, consider the fact that planetary ion cannons are 1/4 the output of a planetary TL!

Only problem I see there is shouldn't that royally fuck up the atmosphere in the area as it passes?

Depends on how much energy in the TL interacts with the atmosphere. If the blast doesn't emit much energy, we might not see any real effects (Stuff like atmospheric ionization, etc.) We do know from other official sources that some blaster discharges do leave a scent of ozone in the air (which is due to ionization IIRC, but I could be wrong.)

Its also quite possible that they create ionized "channels" for the beam to pass through by using a more continuous, low-powered discharge (I believe similar tactics were suggested for extending the range of atmospheric beam weapons.)

Damn.

With planetary firepower like that, how big of a fleet do you need to invade a reasonably defended planet?

The Prime Necromancer wrote:With planetary firepower like that, how big of a fleet do you need to invade a reasonably defended planet?

Huge. That's why the DS was necessary.

Depends. If you don't have planetary shielding of any kind, invasions depend on the enemy's fleet presence and ground defenses. A relatively peaceful world (like Naboo pre-AOTC) would probably not require more than a single STar Destroyer.

With planetary shields, you can shrug off a Sector group, even if it has a Star Destroyer. You need either a Death Star, a torpedo sphere, or nearly 4 dozen starships (none smaller than a Victory class and at least 3 Executor-class being included in the mix.)

Master of Ossus wrote:

The Prime Necromancer wrote:With planetary firepower like that, how big of a fleet do you need to invade a reasonably defended planet?

Huge. That's why the DS was necessary.

Only if your world had planetary shields. (And presumably also ground-based batteries, fleets, and orbital stations and the like.)

IIRC, a single ISD is enough to pacify MOST Outer Rim colonies. Stuff like Torpedo Spheres and the Death Star seemed more useful to keep the core worlds in line (Which probably explains why Tarkin chose Alderaan, wouldn't you say?) - which were much greater potentail threats than most Outer Rim worlds.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:

The Prime Necromancer wrote:With planetary firepower like that, how big of a fleet do you need to invade a reasonably defended planet?

Huge. That's why the DS was necessary.

Only if your world had planetary shields. (And presumably also ground-based batteries, fleets, and orbital stations and the like.)

Well, he said "reasonably defended planet," so I figured that included a network of defense cannons and shields, seeing as how even the small settlement the NR set up on Dantooine was equipped with large theatre shields.

IIRC, a single ISD is enough to pacify MOST Outer Rim colonies. Stuff like Torpedo Spheres and the Death Star seemed more useful to keep the core worlds in line (Which probably explains why Tarkin chose Alderaan, wouldn't you say?) - which were much greater potentail threats than most Outer Rim worlds.

A single ISD is generally considered enough to pacify a small world, but a DS or a very large fleet would be required to force a powerful, well defended world to capitulate.

Master of Ossus wrote: Well, he said "reasonably defended planet," so I figured that included a network of defense cannons and shields, seeing as how even the small settlement the NR set up on Dantooine was equipped with large theatre shields.

Ah yes, I forgot that part. However, it appears that even enough Imperial warships can batter through the strongest defenses (otherwise how would the Empire have retaken Coruscant from the NR?) We know from "The Black Fleet Crisis" that around soem forty or so warships of Victrory/Imperator class and higher, plus 3 Executors, can overwhelm any planetary defense, including Coruscant. (which is odd, given Stackpole's dumb notion of the Lusankya punching through Coruscant's shields singlehandedly.)

BTW Dantooine had theatre shields? Are we referring to that dumb-ass colony set up by the NR for Gantoris's people?

Ehm, no, the quote from BTS refers to "a third of a typical sector-group", what gives us eight ISDs.

I somewhere read, that a planetary turbolaser from KDY (model 230 me thinks) was said to be able to destroy an ImpStar with a single shot.

Of course the quote doesn´t say, if said ISD is shielded or not.

Ehm, no, the quote from BTS refers to "a third of a typical sector-group", what gives us eight ISDs.

Keep in mind that there's far more than just ISD's in a "typical sector-group".

The exact quotes:

BTS, page 148:
The Empire's standard Sector Group strength was only twenty-four Star Destroyers. They were able to exercise control over an entire system with a single Imperial-class ship. They were able to overwhelm anything up to a Class Four planetary defense with one-third of a Sector Group."

About the planetary TL:
w-165 Planetary Turbolaser   
designed by Kuat Drive Yards, this ground-based turbolaser emplacement was used for planetary defense. This immense weapon had roughly four times the power of the v-150 Planetary Defender ion cannon, and was capable of destroying an Imperial-class Star Destroyer in orbit. The w-165 was a self-contained weapon, with power generation equipment in its base. The firing vector of the w-165 was limited, so a number of these tubrolasers had be used to fully cover the arc of sky they were protecting

If we assume 10^25 Watt as output for an ISD and that fourty percent of those go into shields a shot needed to overwhelm those shields would require a firepower of

952,381 Gigatons or 953.4 TTs.

FTeik wrote:Ehm, no, the quote from BTS refers to "a third of a typical sector-group", what gives us eight ISDs.

Right, and six ISD's plus the Executor couldn't breach the shields at Hoth.

Edit: Plus, I doubt they attacked Coruscant with only eight STar Destroyers when the Imperials retook it from the Rebellion. That was the number I believe Thrawn employed when he laid Siege to Coruscant, and he wasn't even able to overwhelm the planet.

Besides, thats completely irrelevant to what I was discussing.

FTeik wrote:The exact quotes:

BTS, page 148:
The Empire's standard Sector Group strength was only twenty-four Star Destroyers. They were able to exercise control over an entire system with a single Imperial-class ship. They were able to overwhelm anything up to a Class Four planetary defense with one-third of a Sector Group."

And do you care to quantify what a "Class Four planetary defense" consists of?

The quote I was referring to was on pages 137-138.

Before the Storm wrote: "According to Ayddar, the order of battle for Black Sword includes forty-four capital ships which we have not seen nor heard of since the fall of the Emperor. None smaller than a Victory-class STar Destroyer. Three are Super-class vessels."

Drayson whistled. "What do you think of his analysis?"

"I find it indisputable."

"You know thats more than enough firepower to overwhelm any planetary system in the New Republic," said Drayson. "Coruscant included."

Coruscant is known to be one of the most well defended planets in the galaxy (since its the seat of both the Republics and the Empire, it makes sense that it would be.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:

FTeik wrote:Ehm, no, the quote from BTS refers to "a third of a typical sector-group", what gives us eight ISDs.

Right, and six ISD's plus the Executor couldn't breach the shields at Hoth.

Five ISDs plus Executor.
A "clean" bombardement wasn´t possible (novel or radio-drama)
A single shield might lack the weak spots (in the overlapping areas) of full planetary shields, that are generated by multiple shield-generators and that are exploited by TorpedoSpheres.
Major industrialized worlds are attacked by groups of six ISDs (SW:ICS)

But basically i agree with you.

Edit: Plus, I doubt they attacked Coruscant with only eight STar Destroyers when the Imperials retook it from the Rebellion. That was the number I believe Thrawn employed when he laid Siege to Coruscant, and he wasn't even able to overwhelm the planet.

Besides, thats completely irrelevant to what I was discussing.

We know, that six fleet-commanders allied with the emperors ruling council, what gives us from six ISD up to six superiority-fleets (36 - 96 ISDs) plus other vessels ( i somehow doubt a single commander would have more ships). We don´t know, if they were using Torpedospheres or how long they bombed the planet. And Thrawn didn´t try to overwhelm Coruscant, he only wanted to take it out of the war.

Taking down the Hoth shields with orbital fire might have wiped out the base along valuble intelligence and possibly prisoners.

EDIT:
Might calcs using reactor size not be reliable because some reactors may be more efficient. For example the powerplant on a warship needs to be quite small because of the obvious volume and mass (mass may not be as the armour on a SW warship would be helluva heavy) considerations however a planetside reactor doesn't have these concerns.

Soulman wrote:Taking down the Hoth shields with orbital fire might have wiped out the base along valuble intelligence and possibly prisoners.

Luke is the keyword you're looking for there.

TL bombardment > Luke Skywalker

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Soulman wrote:Taking down the Hoth shields with orbital fire might have wiped out the base along valuble intelligence and possibly prisoners.

Luke is the keyword you're looking for there.

TL bombardment > Luke Skywalker

Even without Luke a ground attack would make sense.

FTeik wrote:Five ISDs plus Executor.
A "clean" bombardement wasn´t possible (novel or radio-drama)
A single shield might lack the weak spots (in the overlapping areas) of full planetary shields, that are generated by multiple shield-generators and that are exploited by TorpedoSpheres.

Canon made it explicit that the shield at Hoth could deflect any bombardment the starfleet delivered, and that was INCLUDING the Executor. And it wasn't even a full planetary shield.

And if Alderaan's shield is any indicator, we know why.

Major industrialized worlds are attacked by groups of six ISDs (SW:ICS)

But basically i agree with you.

The only way a "Major industrialized world" could be assaulted by six ISDs is if it lacked any sort of full planetary shield (they might be able to take down a partial shield by landing troops and vehicles.) If the ANH novelization is any indicator, most Core worlds have full planetary shields however.

We know, that six fleet-commanders allied with the emperors ruling council, what gives us from six ISD up to six superiority-fleets (36 - 96 ISDs) plus other vessels ( i somehow doubt a single commander would have more ships). We don´t know, if they were using Torpedospheres or how long they bombed the planet. And Thrawn didn´t try to overwhelm Coruscant, he only wanted to take it out of the war.

We actually do have some rough idea of how they bombarded the planet. One of the anthologies involved a story where Coruscant was under attack at that very timeframe, and it was less than a week (might not even have been a day, IIRC.) Again, I belive Wayne might know more.

Canon made it explicit that the shield at Hoth could deflect any bombardment the starfleet delivered, and that was INCLUDING the Executor. And it wasn't even a full planetary shield.

And if Alderaan's shield is any indicator, we know why.

My point was, that full planetary shields that are made up of lots of different individual shields (like the one at Hoth) are probabely weaker in the areas, where the shields met.

From the ISB on Torpedospheres:
The Torpedo Sphere is a miniature Death Star, covered with thousands of dedicated energy receptors (DERs) designed to analyze shield emissions. Planetary shields are never uniformly even. They experience power anomalies and energy fluctuations just like other mechanical devices. The Torpedo Sphere parks in orbit around a planet and trains its DERs upon the world to search for weak points in the shielding. These weak points rarely exceed more than a 20 percent power drop, but this is enough for the Torpedo Sphere to bring down the shields.

The only way a "Major industrialized world" could be assaulted by six ISDs is if it lacked any sort of full planetary shield (they might be able to take down a partial shield by landing troops and vehicles.) If the ANH novelization is any indicator, most Core worlds have full planetary shields however.

No, the ANH-novelisation makes clear, that Alderaans shields could compete with the best the empire had to offer. It nowhere makes a statement about the number of major worlds that have those shields.

Further TLC describes that a world with shields is usually conquered in two ways: either the landing of a large army and a full-scale ground war or the taking out of the shields by a commando-team. This implies, that even full shields can be passed in some way (yes, i know abou the problems connected with that).

If full planetary shields were as wide-spread as you claim, strategically and economically important worlds (like major industrialized worlds) would enjoy the protection of full planetary shields and the way of operating described in the ICS would be an exception to the rule, not the rule itself.

We actually do have some rough idea of how they bombarded the planet. One of the anthologies involved a story where Coruscant was under attack at that very timeframe, and it was less than a week (might not even have been a day, IIRC.) Again, I belive Wayne might know more.

I think "Tales from the empire" or one of the Adventure Journals describes the captain of a courier-ship being on Coruscant, while the planet was under attack. In this story Bel Iblis states, that the shield will fail the next day. So a bombardement for a Coruscant-like planet with an unknown number of ships would take less than two days.

The quote from ANH:
The defense systems on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should conclude that our demonstration was as impressive as it was thorough."

From TLC:
With planetary shields able to hold off all but the most massive turbolaser and proton torpedo bombardment, conventional wisdom held that the only way to subdue a modern world was to put a fast-moving ground force down at the edges and send them overland to destroy the shield generators. Between the fire laid down by the ground force and the subsequent orbital assault, the target world was always badly damaged by the time it was finally taken.



Sidenote:

My translated german version doesn´t talk about "put a fast-moving ground-force down at the edges", it only talks about "full bombardement" and "landing of an army". This is very confusing (sarcasm), because the
first sentence and the description of Ukio imply a full planetary shield without gaps or edges, while the end of the same sentence implies theater-shields.

FTeik wrote: My point was, that full planetary shields that are made up of lots of different individual shields (like the one at Hoth) are probabely weaker in the areas, where the shields met.

So what? When you have an entire planet protected by shields, IE Coruscant, you still have to bring them down first in order to do anything, whether its bombardment or landing troops. Doing so partially or totally does not matter. Nor does it nullify in any way the requirement of large amounts of firepower (or a large number of ships to deliver it) to actually overwhelm the shield.

From the ISB on Torpedospheres:
The Torpedo Sphere is a miniature Death Star, covered with thousands of dedicated energy receptors (DERs) designed to analyze shield emissions. Planetary shields are never uniformly even. They experience power anomalies and energy fluctuations just like other mechanical devices. The Torpedo Sphere parks in orbit around a planet and trains its DERs upon the world to search for weak points in the shielding. These weak points rarely exceed more than a 20 percent power drop, but this is enough for the Torpedo Sphere to bring down the shields.

You can do that without a Torpedo sphere apparently (AS referenced during the Coruscant assault session in Wedge's Gamble.) but this is irrelevant, since it still means bringing the shields DOWN before actually doing anything. It should be noted that such tactics tend to use bombardment rather than landings with such tactics, though.

And if anything, this only reinforces my argument. The difference in "power" between a weak point and a "normal" shield appears to be less than an order of magnitude in difference. It still requires a massive amount of firepower concentrated on a very small area in a very coordinated salvo (near-simultaneous impacts, it would seem.) And even then, the "gap" created is not permanant - it is in fact quite brief in duration (and failure to take advantage of it in fact requires the whole process to be started from the beginning.)

No, the ANH-novelisation makes clear, that Alderaans shields could compete with the best the empire had to offer. It nowhere makes a statement about the number of major worlds that have those shields.

I concede regarding the ANH quote. However, this still does not nullify the point that you can only assault a "major industrialized world" with Six Star Destroyers only if it has partial or no planetary shields. Six Star Destroyers (or eight, or even twenty four) would not be sufficient to overwhelm full planetary shielding (such as Coruscant.), which I indicated previously.

[quoted]
Further TLC describes that a world with shields is usually conquered in two ways: either the landing of a large army and a full-scale ground war or the taking out of the shields by a commando-team. This implies, that even full shields can be passed in some way (yes, i know abou the problems connected with that).
[/quote]

And Before the Storm and Wedge's Gamble both point out that its impossible to take a planet without taking out its shielding first. This is reinforced by the fact that you cannot BDZ or bombard a planet (or part of a planet) protected by shields until said shields are removed. IF they could simply "ignore" shields somehow without taking them out (either partially or totally), then they should easily be able to do so via bombardment (which is much easier to deliver than ground troops.), which is apparently not the case (otherwise taking the shields out would not require such exotic tactics like a torpedo sphere or finding "shield weaknesses.")

Moreover the Torpedo sphere reference only serves to intensify the difficulty of this - the "gap" the torpedo sphere supposedly opens is very brief and very small (six meters square, IIRC), and it lasts for at best a few seconds (and usually more like a few milliseconds or microseconds!). And the process of doing so requires both great complexity and high precision - and all this is for a vessel SPECIFICALLY designed for such a purpose (with weapons and sensors specially suited for the task.) Any conventional warship would have much greater difficulty.

If full planetary shields were as wide-spread as you claim, strategically and economically important worlds (like major industrialized worlds) would enjoy the protection of full planetary shields and the way of operating described in the ICS would be an exception to the rule, not the rule itself.

I acknowledged that with partial or no planetary shields six ISD's could assault a planet, but not a FULLY SHIELDED one (IE Coruscant.) This stands valid independent of my erroneous quotation of the ANH novelization.