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I've just been wondering, but where did this come from? I know it's all over the EU, but was there anything in the Canon to support this?

The only thing I can possibly think of is that one officer in the detention block saying, "Where are taking that...thing?" Other than that, I can't think of any other refrences to it in the movies (though I haven't read all the novels).

And granted, I guess, one could infer from the lack of aliens on Imperial ships such a thing, but then how did the Rebellion become such a beacon of diversity? I don't remember any aliens on Yavin or Hoth, and the only aliens I saw were the Mon Calamari, the one Sullustan, and mention of the Bothans.

And the same thing for the anti-woman bias there was supposedly, too. In the movies, the only women I remember seeing in the Rebel side was Leia, Mon Mothma, and one female tech on Hoth. I didn't see any in the starfighters or on the bridge of the capital ships or in the trenches (IOW, front-line fighters).

So, looking at the movies, how did the concept of an Empire with a bias against aliens and women come about...and the Rebellion being such a beacon of diversity and equality? The only real diversity I saw among the Rebels was in the skin color of the pilots. And even the bridge crew seemed all Mon Calamari, while everyone else (with the exception of the Sullustan co-pilot of the Falcon) was human.

RogueIce wrote:I've just been wondering, but where did this come from? I know it's all over the EU, but was there anything in the Canon to support this?

The only thing I can possibly think of is that one officer in the detention block saying, "Where are taking that...thing?" Other than that, I can't think of any other refrences to it in the movies (though I haven't read all the novels).

They're like, fascists and stuff. Fascists are, like, intolerant and stuff.

And granted, I guess, one could infer from the lack of aliens on Imperial ships such a thing, but then how did the Rebellion become such a beacon of diversity? I don't remember any aliens on Yavin or Hoth, and the only aliens I saw were the Mon Calamari, the one Sullustan, and mention of the Bothans.

Still, the majority of the crew of the Rebel capships were Mon Calamari. Also, the Rebel Alliance had a Mon Calamari (Adm. Ackbar) among its leaders. In the movies, do we ever se any aliens among the Empire's tops?? Palpatine occassionally gets supported by weird-looking aliens (eg. the Hutts and their antithesis, the Kaminoans)

And the same thing for the anti-woman bias there was supposedly, too. In the movies, the only women I remember seeing in the Rebel side was Leia, Mon Mothma, and one female tech on Hoth.

All the women to gain high positions in The Empire are Ysanne Isard, Leonia Tavira and Adm. Daala who easily could have gotten there simply by virtue of their good looks. (heck, it's common knowledge that Daala only became Admiral because she was dating Grand Moff Tarkin!!)

I don't think any of this applies to Mon Mothma.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:They're like, fascists and stuff. Fascists are, like, intolerant and stuff.

Where'd you get that from the movies? Besides the whole "evil Empire" thing? IIRC, Saxton says one reason is because of standardization of equipment and so on for seperate human/alien units. Maybe we just never saw 'em.

Still, the majority of the crew of the Rebel capships were Mon Calamari. Also, the Rebel Alliance had a Mon Calamari (Adm. Ackbar) among its leaders. In the movies, do we ever se any aliens among the Empire's tops?? Palpatine occassionally gets supported by weird-looking aliens (eg. the Hutts and their antithesis, the Kaminoans)

Maybe that's because they're the only ones who can control them (if the EU is to be believed, but I'm talking canon here)? Besides, it seems segregated to me; Mon Calamari are the only ones on the bridge, yet with one exception on the MF, all the fighter pilots are human (as is the commando team). And I don't recall seeing any aliens at all on Yavin or Hoth.

All the women to gain high positions in The Empire are Ysanne Isard, Leonia Tavira and Adm. Daala who easily could have gotten there simply by virtue of their good looks. (heck, it's common knowledge that Daala only became Admiral because she was dating Grand Moff Tarkin!!)

I don't think any of this applies to Mon Mothma.

That's all EU though. I was asking for anything from the canon.

In canon...there is virtually no evidence to say either way.

So one either goes by EU, or we presume the Empire did use aliens.

And most of the EU onward was brought up mainly by Zahn and Thrawn

Ghost Rider wrote:And most of the EU onward was brought up mainly by Zahn and Thrawn

Yeah...speaking of Zahn. Thrawn was the leader. If there was an anti-alien bias in his fleet, it was hidden quite well. That and he used the Nghri. Pelleaon didn't like them much, but he had no problem with Thrawn, and I don't recall him ever thinking about how "odd" it was to have Imperial forces lead by an alien (though did anyone make the comment they were surprised how far Thrawn had risen despite his alien status in the Thrawn books, or was that other novels?).

So, if the canon (AFAIK) and Zahn (more or less the originator of the EU novels, excepting the Han and Lando books and Splinter) didn't do it...who did?

Zahn brought it up only in the upper eschelon(ther Emperor and his Moffs and what not)...which became a brain bug towards defining as the also to the rank and file of the Empire.

And Thrawn himself commented on his rank...many times

As I said no one in canon...and Zahn did start it.

Ghost Rider wrote:Zahn brought it up only in the upper eschelon(ther Emperor and his Moffs and what not)...which became a brain bug towards defining as the also to the rank and file of the Empire.

And Thrawn himself commented on his rank...many times

As I said no one in canon...and Zahn did start it.

Ah, whoops. Been awhile since I read it, obviously.

I also don't like how ost of the EU potrays everyone in the Empire has some sort of alien-hating evil bad guy ready to wipe out whole worlds without a thought. And how they're all outsmarted so easily and egnerally act pretty dumb.

I find it hard to believe the only decent/intelligent people in the Empire were going to jump over to the Rebel camp first chance they got.

Accept it, most of the EU, if it comes to descibing the Empire, is totally fucked up and simply unrealistic and wrong. It seems to suffer from a tic of the authors, to make the Empire as isdiotic as possible.
Boy, I'm glad I've never read though all of the EU....

In canon...there is virtually no evidence to say either way.

I disagree. The fact that no women, minorities, or aliens can be seen in the Imperial military is surely not a coincidence.

Durran Korr wrote:
I disagree. The fact that no women, minorities, or aliens can be seen in the Imperial military is surely not a coincidence.

It could just imply that there are segregated military units--which is not necessarily an indication of general oppression. Gender-segregated units might have some advantages over mixed-gender units (particularly ships on long patrols), and aliens on ships or in ground-combat units might have special food or even enviromental requirements that could require them to be grouped together, at worst led by human officers, like colonial units in the Raj were led by British regulars.

X-Wing: RogueSquadron speaks of a non-human-section of the imperial fleet.

Given the fact, that the majority of sentinent beings are humans, it would be safe to assume, that they are the ones, who set the standards.

RogueIce wrote:

Simon H.Johansen wrote:They're like, fascists and stuff. Fascists are, like, intolerant and stuff.

Where'd you get that from the movies? Besides the whole "evil Empire" thing? IIRC, Saxton says one reason is because of standardization of equipment and so on for seperate human/alien units. Maybe we just never saw 'em.

Well, aren't the Empire supposed to be fascist? Or at least totalitarian??

Maybe that's because they're the only ones who can control them (if the EU is to be believed, but I'm talking canon here)? Besides, it seems segregated to me; Mon Calamari are the only ones on the bridge, yet with one exception on the MF, all the fighter pilots are human (as is the commando team). And I don't recall seeing any aliens at all on Yavin or Hoth.

It could be segregated because the fighters' electrical displays are optimized for humans - after all, many aliens do not see light in the same visual spectra as humans.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:Well, aren't the Empire supposed to be fascist? Or at least totalitarian??

They're certainly fascist, but that alone does not neccessarily mean that 'white humans' should have been lifted so far above the rest of the Galactic races.

It could be segregated because the fighters' electrical displays are optimized for humans - after all, many aliens do not see light in the same visual spectra as humans.

Quite possibly. The Mon Calamari ships until the MC90 design line were almost exclusively crewed by Mon Calamari; their I/O were optimized for that species and the cost of refitting was considered too much for the Rebellion.

RogueIce wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Zahn brought it up only in the upper eschelon(ther Emperor and his Moffs and what not)...which became a brain bug towards defining as the also to the rank and file of the Empire.

And Thrawn himself commented on his rank...many times

As I said no one in canon...and Zahn did start it.

Ah, whoops. Been awhile since I read it, obviously.

I also don't like how ost of the EU potrays everyone in the Empire has some sort of alien-hating evil bad guy ready to wipe out whole worlds without a thought. And how they're all outsmarted so easily and egnerally act pretty dumb.

I find it hard to believe the only decent/intelligent people in the Empire were going to jump over to the Rebel camp first chance they got.

Well, there WAS the son of Jagged Fel in the NJO books...forget his name at the moment....

Badme wrote:Well, there WAS the son of Jagged Fel in the NJO books...forget his name at the moment....

You mean Soontir Fel. His son was Jagged Fel.

Badme wrote:Well, there WAS the son of Jagged Fel in the NJO books...forget his name at the moment....

IIRC, Jagged Fel was the son. Soontir Fel was the father.

And he's not technically with the Empire. He's with the Chiss (though I haven't read beyond SbS yet, but AFAIK the IR is still seperate from the GA).

Durran Korr wrote:

In canon...there is virtually no evidence to say either way.

I disagree. The fact that no women, minorities, or aliens can be seen in the Imperial military is surely not a coincidence.

Incorrect. The entire clone army is dark-skinned as of AOTC. As for women, we only see perhaps a few dozen Imperial officers in total during the original trilogy; not enough to form a hasty generalization about an officer corps which is surely vast beyond comprehension.

As for aliens, there is a perfectly good reasons to preferentially recruit and train one species: equipment standardization. Think about what a pain in the ass it would be to equip and supply a military which just increased the variety of equipment specifications by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE in order to accomodate multiple species. Similar concerns apply to medic training.

Darth Wong wrote:

Durran Korr wrote:

In canon...there is virtually no evidence to say either way.

I disagree. The fact that no women, minorities, or aliens can be seen in the Imperial military is surely not a coincidence.

Incorrect. The entire clone army is dark-skinned as of AOTC. As for women, we only see perhaps a few dozen Imperial officers in total during the original trilogy; not enough to form a hasty generalization about an officer corps which is surely vast beyond comprehension.

As for aliens, there is a perfectly good reasons to preferentially recruit and train one species: equipment standardization. Think about what a pain in the ass it would be to equip and supply a military which just increased the variety of equipment specifications by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE in order to accomodate multiple species. Similar concerns apply to medic training.

"No, Chewie, I don't think they had Wookies in mind when they designed it..."

Well, the fact that an Wookie was walking around in chains and "where are you taking that......thing" does suggest an inherent anti-alien bias in the Empire.

PainRack wrote:Well, the fact that an Wookie was walking around in chains and "where are you taking that......thing" does suggest an inherent anti-alien bias in the Empire.

Bah, such a leap in logic. One does not represent the whole.


Especially if the one is a lowly Detention Center guard.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:

PainRack wrote:Well, the fact that an Wookie was walking around in chains and "where are you taking that......thing" does suggest an inherent anti-alien bias in the Empire.

Bah, such a leap in logic. One does not represent the whole.


Especially if the one is a lowly Detention Center guard.

The EU made him out to be an officer. Can't remember whether he was a captain or a lieutant though.

I was making a joke anyway. A Lt. might make sense. Having a officer of some type in the DC would too. But a Captain? *shrugs*

Still, my point stands.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:I was making a joke anyway. A Lt. might make sense. Having a officer of some type in the DC would too. But a Captain? *shrugs*

Still, my point stands.

Yes, the point stands. But they are the only source of canon evidence for alien bias in the movies, and there isn't any source for an alien lovefest.{shrug}

As for a captain, that's not impossible. Improbable, but not impossible. He could have been the Base Duty Officer or even the OC of the detention guards and it just happened that he was present when Han popped in.

PainRack wrote:

Lord_Xerxes wrote:I was making a joke anyway. A Lt. might make sense. Having a officer of some type in the DC would too. But a Captain? *shrugs*

Still, my point stands.

Yes, the point stands. But they are the only source of canon evidence for alien bias in the movies, and there isn't any source for an alien lovefest.{shrug}

As for a captain, that's not impossible. Improbable, but not impossible. He could have been the Base Duty Officer or even the OC of the detention guards and it just happened that he was present when Han popped in.

I still think that what Mike said about making hasty generalizations about the Empire based on a few offball quotes and what the EU may or may not say (which may or may not be slander) is a sound point. His points about streamlining the efficiency of the Empire's military, equipment, etc are pretty sound too.

Painrack, there are racists in the US Army too, but that doesn't mean the US Army itself is racist.