Size of the Imperial Fleet

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-23 09:05pm

Need to know how many ISD's were in the Empire during its height. Please provide a link or reference with any statement for support. Thank you.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-09-24 12:11am

25,000 according to Palleaon in Specter of the Past.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-24 12:36am

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:25,000 according to Palleaon in Specter of the Past.

Well, if that's true, and nobody wishes to offer proof otherwise, then I'm off to eat crow...

AL · Post by AL » 2002-09-24 12:54am

that off a WEG source used by Tim Zahn to write his books, I would say the number may be more than 25,000 but i have no proof. The only thing I can even come up with is at least 1000 sectors in the galaxy under imperial control. 24 ISDs make up a sector group, now we have at least 24,000 one for each sector and then several ISDs in reserve or guarding important economic worlds. Not to mention some of those sector group might have Executor class command ships but I cant say for sure on the number.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-09-24 01:11am

Hey, maybe the ImpStar was a low production design, and the Empire concentrated on building bigger and meaner ships after a modest production run of 25000 ships.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-09-24 01:25am

consequences wrote:Hey, maybe the ImpStar was a low production design, and the Empire concentrated on building bigger and meaner ships after a modest production run of 25000 ships.

Dark Empire certainly indicates that larger cruisers are fairly common

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2002-09-24 02:07am

Yup. Also, it should be noted that this is probably the *only* portrayal of a serious Imperial fleet. Most of the other EU sources show Imperial factions that are extremely small and ill-equipped when it came to ships. In the Thrawn trilogy, for example, 5 or 6 ISDs were considered a big deal, and in one scene Thrawn actually asked Talon Karrde if he would sell him some spare warships.

i]The Courtship of Princess Leia[/i] is a better portrayal of Imperial naval power. Unlike Thrawn, Warlord Zsinj had lots of big ships but lacked the ability to properly maintain them. He was in command of multiple SSDs, and in one scene in he casually calls in 40 ISDs to reinforce his blockade on Dathomir. The Hapan fleet that traveled to Coruscant also consisted of dozens of ISDs, further proof of their commonplace status.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-09-24 03:31am

Jim Raynor wrote:Yup. Also, it should be noted that this is probably the *only* portrayal of a serious Imperial fleet. Most of the other EU sources show Imperial factions that are extremely small and ill-equipped when it came to ships. In the Thrawn trilogy, for example, 5 or 6 ISDs were considered a big deal, and in one scene Thrawn actually asked Talon Karrde if he would sell him some spare warships.

Thawn was asking every rouge military group in the galaxy. Even if each one sold only one ship that could easily add up to thousands, and the balance of power was close to even at the time.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-24 07:53am

But still 25k ISDS built in 4 years says somthing(From 1 year before ANH to ROTJ at the height of thier power)

Or to put it another way they are capable of building 25,000/1460(Days in year times 4)= 17 ISDs a day

Remeber the Empire only HAD ten years to get itself built and functing and frankly thats not enough time to do much, The fact they where churning out 17 ISDs a day says somthing

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-09-24 09:18am

Star Destroyers were one year old at the time of ANH? What's the source?

Don't get me wrong I don't dispute Imperial fleet size (we have the canon radio drama saying that the fleet at Endor was the SECTOR fleet) and from the size of the SW galaxy and the the practicalities of policing that space we easily get tens of thousands of ISDs.

I just think ISDs are older than the EU says- I assume its an EU source that says that the Devastator was only 1 year old.

They didn't have ten years- they had more than that- the Empire had a 20 year reign- Anakin will be at the most 23 in Episode III and in Episode VI, according to George Lucas, he was in his mid-forties. The Empire is born in Episode III (definitely). Hopefully we'll see some predecessor Star Destroyers (probably along with Acclamators) in Episode III (Acclamators doing battle with Tradefed battleships wouldn't be very impressive).

What I do take issue with:

Dreadnought: oh bullshit. Fucken EU.
Lancer Frigate: oh bullshit. Fucken EU.
Strike Cruiser: oh bullshit. Fucken EU.
Every other ship thought up by WEG: Oh bullshit. Fucken EU.

They turn the Imperial starfleet into a rag tag bunch of peasants. Curtis Saxton's take on this issue is the correct one. I *HATE*EU ships unless they're dagger shaped. Dark Empire had the right idea. All those shit looking EU ships, especially that old fuck Dreadnought, are NOT ships of the line.

Frankly the only EU ships I like are the SFS Immobilizer-418 Interdictor and the KDY Dominator-class Interdictor

On that topic, did anyone notice the cool thing Curtis Saxton did in the ICS:

Acclamator-class Troopship
Mandator-class Star Dreadnought (mentioned)
Procurator-class Star Battlecruiser (mentioned)

Why is this important?

Executor-class Command Ship
Imperator-class Star Destroyer

See what I mean? Possible ship class names for Episode III:

Praetor-class
Dictator-class

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-24 09:26am

ISDs would be more likely to be around 10 years old, although they could be much younger or older (building could've started right after the foundation of the Empire).

The VSD is also mentioned in the ICS, which gives me hope since I like the ship and the idea of a light destroyer
And could you please provide me with the exact quotes from the ICS about the Procurator class and that?

Sounds interesting.....

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-24 09:40am

Star Destroyers were one year old at the time of ANH? What's the source?

No SD where around before then HOWEVER

SD MK II the Model the Imperal Navy Refers to was only DESIGNED a year before ANH

IE SD MK I can not be modifyed into MK IIs thefore you must build them, The Navy only used MK IIs so all the MK IIs(All 25k of them) had to be built in the Four year period between when they where put into production and ROTJ

Roughly a four year period

The number of MK I's and Vic's remains unknow

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-09-24 05:12pm

Keep in mind that ISDs aren't the only, or the largest, ships in the Imperial Navy.

See Saxton's fleet size estimation chart

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/warships.html#construction

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-09-24 05:15pm

consequences wrote:Hey, maybe the ImpStar was a low production design, and the Empire concentrated on building bigger and meaner ships after a modest production run of 25000 ships.

Yes the ImpStar was a low-production ship, but not because the imps built larger and meaner ships, but because they built smaller and more ships.

You see the ISD is a jack of all trades ship, it is also the largest ship and most powerfull ship, but even so, the 1250m Republic Destroyer can almost match it in firepower, and thats because that ship is a dedicated battleship.

In conclusion, they made a few ISD's and mostly focused on smaller dedicated warships.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-09-24 05:17pm

I was going to say it was the largest, most powerfull ship in those numbers.
I don't believe any of the bigger ships where manufactured in any real quantities, the Empire never had a real chance to begin doing that.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2002-09-24 05:50pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Star Destroyers were one year old at the time of ANH? What's the source?
No SD where around before then HOWEVER

SD MK II the Model the Imperal Navy Refers to was only DESIGNED a year before ANH

IE SD MK I can not be modifyed into MK IIs thefore you must build them, The Navy only used MK IIs so all the MK IIs(All 25k of them) had to be built in the Four year period between when they where put into production and ROTJ

Roughly a four year period

The number of MK I's and Vic's remains unknow

What source claims that the 25k number is only for MK IIs? If that's true, it would destroy all this Trekkie bullshit about the Imperial fleet only having 25k SDs.

AL · Post by AL » 2002-09-24 11:20pm

I don't want to be a cock, but this is all speculation. Forget about anything writen after ROTJ for a moment, WEG shit and the EU stories. What if in EPIII we see ISD's and the Executor. This being the first sector fleet built by the empire. Its just a theory and I really think we will see this fleet in Episode III. If this happens this will indeed, throw everything out of wack.

The numbers for ISD's the VSD question and the number of command ships roaming the galaxy, and the very size of the Imperial fleet itself. I think before any of us firmly state anything about the Imperial Fleet we should wait for EPIII. Don't get me wrong its fun to speculate but if this theory comes to pass, everything we have ever said is up in the air.

In alot of ways I agree with Vympel's post about EU ships. I dont think any of them existed. In TPM it is implied that the New Republic has no fighting Navy at all and EPII confirms that otherwise why build a grand army to defend the Republic? We see the Republics first Warship. Its not a VSD but an unknown to anyone one of us an Acclamator class assault ship. Now it may just be me but an ISD is over twice the size of this warship and carries less troops, I'm not so sure about that either. I know everyone on here will argue with me about this and this is not my intention. I want you to unlearn what you have learned from these half assed source books and poorly written EU books that are seven ways from sunday. We all must be patient and wait for EPIII. Once this movie is out then we can firmly say this and that. Also EPI and EPII contradict alot of the EU stuff but thats a different post.

AL · Post by AL » 2002-09-24 11:35pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
consequences wrote:Hey, maybe the ImpStar was a low production design, and the Empire concentrated on building bigger and meaner ships after a modest production run of 25000 ships.
Yes the ImpStar was a low-production ship, but not because the imps built larger and meaner ships, but because they built smaller and more ships.

You see the ISD is a jack of all trades ship, it is also the largest ship and most powerfull ship, but even so, the 1250m Republic Destroyer can almost match it in firepower, and thats because that ship is a dedicated battleship.

In conclusion, they made a few ISD's and mostly focused on smaller dedicated warships.

I would have to disagree with this assumption. For one we dont have an accurate portrayal of the RSD, and the weapons on an ISD may be highr that previously thought. Reviwing the model of the Avenger on Saxton's page one can see numerous structures that look like medium to large tl turrets. I would say the ISD either model is far superior to a scaled down version like the RSD. Perhaps if we had an accurate model of the RSD such a comparison could be made, and we could speculate forever on this topic alone.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-24 11:51pm

Yes, I would like to see the proof that it is 25,000 MK-2s. I seem to recall the Timoth Zhan comment merely stating 25,000 Star Destroyers and I have seen both Zhan and Stackpole refer to VICs as Star Destroyers. (yes, I know the WEG statement of 25,000 ISDs, but I am also pointing out that the novel sources do not strictly speaking say the same thing)

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-09-24 11:52pm

Personally I'm hoping to see an Imperial Star Destroyer. I don't think the Executor should be shown. However, ISDs and maybe even VSDs would be good to see as well. Having VSDs around, and then the ISD make an entrance much like the SSD did in ESB would be great. (lots of Ds in this one.).

On a side note also, we should see a framework of the Death Star. The novelisation even mentions the Death Star being a few years in production and construction. They have to work out all of the kinks ya know. Which still wouldn't hurt the manufacturing scale of the Empire, seeing how they still managed to produce ISDs in obviously the thousands, numerous SSDs, and in six months time maybe more built a 900km battlestation.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-24 11:56pm

Alyeska wrote:Yes, I would like to see the proof that it is 25,000 MK-2s. I seem to recall the Timoth Zhan comment merely stating 25,000 Star Destroyers and I have seen both Zhan and Stackpole refer to VICs as Star Destroyers. (yes, I know the WEG statement of 25,000 ISDs, but I am also pointing out that the novel sources do not strictly speaking say the same thing)

Okay, you have independent proof of the same statistic from two different EU sources. You didn't believe them. What can we do to prove it to you, seeing as how the movies will never include a statistic like that?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-25 12:34am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Yes, I would like to see the proof that it is 25,000 MK-2s. I seem to recall the Timoth Zhan comment merely stating 25,000 Star Destroyers and I have seen both Zhan and Stackpole refer to VICs as Star Destroyers. (yes, I know the WEG statement of 25,000 ISDs, but I am also pointing out that the novel sources do not strictly speaking say the same thing)
Okay, you have independent proof of the same statistic from two different EU sources. You didn't believe them. What can we do to prove it to you, seeing as how the movies will never include a statistic like that?

Actually, I do believe the 25K ISD number. What I am noting is that some sources simply refer to them as Star Destroyers AND those same sources have called VICs as Star Destroyers (which they are, VICTORY Star Destroyers). What I was primarily asking was what proof do you have that it is 25K ISD-MKIIs (that I don't believe).

AL · Post by AL » 2002-09-25 12:38am

Alyeska wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Yes, I would like to see the proof that it is 25,000 MK-2s. I seem to recall the Timoth Zhan comment merely stating 25,000 Star Destroyers and I have seen both Zhan and Stackpole refer to VICs as Star Destroyers. (yes, I know the WEG statement of 25,000 ISDs, but I am also pointing out that the novel sources do not strictly speaking say the same thing)
Okay, you have independent proof of the same statistic from two different EU sources. You didn't believe them. What can we do to prove it to you, seeing as how the movies will never include a statistic like that?
Actually, I do believe the 25K ISD number. What I am noting is that some sources simply refer to them as Star Destroyers AND those same sources have called VICs as Star Destroyers (which they are, VICTORY Star Destroyers). What I was primarily asking was what proof do you have that it is 25K ISD-MKIIs (that I don't believe).

can we even be sure that vsds even exist or will exist?

AL · Post by AL » 2002-09-25 12:52am

I think it can be said that a vast majority of WEG warships dont exist. The only ones that do thus far are the isd and their subclassed, The command ships the escort frigate the corellian corvette, med transports, and the cal cruisers, the liberty class winged type, the wingless type and the Home One class. The Acclamator, the Neimodian battleships and the Banking clan warships or tech union ships whoever those other ships in EPII belong to. The communications ship a larger isd and the isd in rotj that seems to be a dedicated warship.

The movie evidence eliminates all the rest thus far.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-09-25 01:05am

It doesn't eliminate them. It doesn't preclude their existance. It merely doesn't confirm it.