Democracy? In the SW universe

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-09-24 11:04pm

In ATOC a few of the main characters have some very interesting interpretations what democracy should be, for example:

Ref: ATOC - novelization p.148)

"Popular rule is not democracy, Anakin. It gives the people what they want but not what they need. And truthfully, I was relieved when my two terms were up." ~ Amidala

Your thought?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-24 11:11pm

It's true. Look at the US Congress. People just vote in whoever looks pretty.

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-09-24 11:12pm

IG-88E wrote:It's true. Look at the US Congress. People just vote in whoever looks pretty.

Have you even SEEN a CongressMAN?!?!?!?!

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-24 11:16pm

OK OK, true. talks pretty, then

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-09-24 11:24pm

Oh and when was the last time the people actually had any say in what they wanted in congress. Make no mistake special interests and corporate greed decide policy in America. Anything else ie: prayer in school, abortion, teen smoking, welfare, etc...etc...etc... Is a smoke screen, to distracted us all from the fact that we are pawns in the games of powerful men.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2002-09-24 11:28pm

Spartan wrote:Oh and when was the last time the people actually had any say in what they wanted in congress. Make no mistake special interests and corporate greed decide policy in America. Anything else ie: prayer in school, abortion, teen smoking, welfare, etc...etc...etc... Is a smoke screen, to distracted us all from the fact that we are pawns in the games of powerful men.

The thing is thats so very true.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-24 11:29pm

The problem with a democracy is that sometimes people don't know what they want.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-24 11:31pm

sometimes?

never.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-09-26 03:06pm

Spartan wrote:Oh and when was the last time the people actually had any say in what they wanted in congress. Make no mistake special interests and corporate greed decide policy in America. Anything else ie: prayer in school, abortion, teen smoking, welfare, etc...etc...etc... Is a smoke screen, to distracted us all from the fact that we are pawns in the games of powerful men.

Power is never taken, its given even if its just out of ingnorance. People let special interests and corporate greed decide policy in America AND other countries because they are too involved in their own lives to worry about others especialy ones they are too far away to see. Thats the way the system really works, in that in sporatic ways the people wake up, see the crap, and demand change. If some change is given, then the people go back to sleep till next time.

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-09-26 03:42pm

What if you can put the people to sleep?

What if you can breed a "need" for change in the people's mind?

I'm sorry, but the American government shouldn't be discussed here. It will simply grow into something no one wants to discuss on this board.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-09-26 04:13pm

Failed Glory wrote:What if you can put the people to sleep?

What if you can breed a "need" for change in the people's mind?

I'm sorry, but the American government shouldn't be discussed here. It will simply grow into something no one wants to discuss on this board.

True, but can be related to the GE's birth form the GR, and even the ability of the GE to maintain power durring it's stint.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-09-26 06:09pm

Failed Glory wrote:

I'm sorry, but the American government shouldn't be discussed here. It will simply grow into something no one wants to discuss on this board.

Your right we are spinning off topic. However, it should GL is an american; and his expieriences and perhaps predjudices color the fictional story he created.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-26 10:06pm

In a republic, one the public discovers that it vote its hand into the goverment coffer, that republic is doomed.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-26 10:06pm

That's "once," not "one"

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2002-09-26 10:48pm

Ah, Democracy the pretty name for mob rule.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-09-26 11:06pm

Captain Lennox wrote:Ah, Democracy the pretty name for mob rule.

A democracy can be more than mere mob if people take part and participate in the political process. When the people stop caring or trying thats when a democracy dies.

Plus checks and balances that actually work a a big part in keeping a democracy from extremism. When those are circumvented or ignored then democracy falls apart.

Democracies are the most fragile governements. They have the most unstable foundations and weakest leadership.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2002-09-27 09:58am

For a former queen-regnant and a member of the Senate of the Galactic Republic, The Honourable Padmé Naberrie Amidala seems to be peculiarly ignorant of political institutions.

For example, when Citizen Skywalker described what he considered the ideal government, Mme Senator Amidala characterised it as a dictatorship -- which is simply not correct. Citizen Skywalker described what could be best and most accurately described as an authoritarian aristocracy (or as an authoritarian oligarchy).

Her response demonstrates that she has a poor understanding of authoritarianism -- a dictatorship is an authoritarian government in which the governor(s) are invested with emergency powers. It is of special noteworthiness that the Galactic Republic is a dictatorship at the end of Attack of the Clones, His Excellency the Supreme Chancellor having been invested with emergency powers.

However, properly speaking, the senatrix is correct in her statement that popular rule is not democracy. In fact, there is an entire class of government that is popular rule yet far from being democratic: Caesarism. A caesarist state is one which possesses an authoritarian government which rules by popular acclaim. Notable examples of caesarist states include Spain under the rule of the Caudillo, Panamá under General Omar Torrijos Herrera, and, of course, ancient Rome under Caius Iulius Caesar.

However, even if one were to assume popular rule and democracy to be synonymous -- which, strictly speaking, they are not --, there remains the fatal flaw that popular rule satisfies the people's wants, which is not ipso facto what is best for a society. Alexander Hamilton noted in The Federalist #1 that "a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants."

Publius