Palpatine's Plan B

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-09-24 02:27pm

Ok, we all know from Ep. I&II that Palpatine is manipulating both sides leading to the clone wars. But what if things did not go as he planned, I want to know what you folks think would happen if the Seperatists won, and beat the Republic during the Clone Wars. Would Palpatine use them to rule the galaxy and form an Empire with droid armies instead of Storm Troopers? Would the Seperatists accept Palpatine as the Emperor even though he was running the Republic? r would the Seperatists merely declare themselves... well seperate from the Republic and their own Govt. and leave the Republic in defeat?

Or some other scenario you have in mind???

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-09-24 03:06pm

Right now palpatine is in a Win-Win scenario. If the Republci triumphs he's already the Supreme Chancellor, essentially for life. If the Seperatists win then he already is the master to its leader: Count Dooku. My guess is that he has already planned with Dooku to make sure the seperatists lose (how hard is it to throw a war when you're the guy in charge?). However even seperatist victories can be helpful: merely blame it on the Jedi and start the campaign to turn them into the REAL reason for all the suffering in the galaxy.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-24 03:28pm

Wilken's is right. He's basically playing both sides of a chess game so it's not at all difficult to tip the scales in the direction he wants. The only thing he has to worry about is Dooku challenging his authority.

Really, Palpy's had bigger setbacks from his side. The Katana Fleet going awry no doubt slowed down his naval build up.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-09-24 03:32pm

Stormbringer wrote:Wilken's is right. He's basically playing both sides of a chess game so it's not at all difficult to tip the scales in the direction he wants. The only thing he has to worry about is Dooku challenging his authority.

Really, Palpy's had bigger setbacks from his side. The Katana Fleet going awry no doubt slowed down his naval build up.

Well with Dooku, again, he can play for the end game no matter what he does. If he becomes rebellious then eliminate him (via Anakin) and blame the mess on the Jedi and their teachings (neglect to mention that your assasin was a jedi). If he doesn't disobey you then use him to turn the Seperatists into the perfect paper enemy before killing him anyway.

As to losing the Katana Fleet I tend to get the idea that the loss of the Eye of Palpatine stung some of his pride and plans more. 200 dreadnaughts can be looked over when nobody cares about naval expenditure anymore.

greenmm · Post by **greenmm** » 2003-09-24 03:37pm

Heck, he's been making win-win plans since TPM. What I find interesting, though, is this: given that he was Naboo's senator before Amidala, and having been in that position for many years, as well as being a trusted advisor to Amidala... wouldn't he have been aware of Amidala's policy of using a body double for security? Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but it seems to me that he must have planned for Amidala to escape the Trade Federation initially, even while berating them for "losing" her, right? And what about when she went back to Naboo? He knew she was going, and that she was going to try and kick the TF bots off the planet... yet he apparantly didn't give them any advance warning about her intentions.

Now, whether his initial plan was to have Maul kidnap her and brainwash her into becoming a tool to use to gain the Chancellorship or not, he's apparantly exceptionally devious, because he was able to easily adapt to her escape from Maul and trick her into giving him the first step he needed towards the Emporership. Call the original plan Plan A, with her escape from Maul causing it to become Plans B and C, depending on whether or not the TF was defeated (although I'm suspecting he wanted the TF to be defeated). Annakin's discovery, of course, would cause modifications to said plans, possibly taking us up to Plans D and E. From there, who knows how far his plans went.

In any case, though, this guy was incredibly slick. His plans and traps were laid so cunningly that, unless they were able to unmask him early on, his enemies' choices and actions would either fail to hinder his ultimate goal... or actually strengthen his position and making his victory more certain.

ewww... I have this intense urge to give an evil chuckle right now...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-24 03:44pm

Well with Dooku, again, he can play for the end game no matter what he does. If he becomes rebellious then eliminate him (via Anakin) and blame the mess on the Jedi and their teachings (neglect to mention that your assasin was a jedi). If he doesn't disobey you then use him to turn the Seperatists into the perfect paper enemy before killing him anyway.

Oh, he can certainly use it to his advantage. It would just make it much more difficult considering the power and prestige of the Seperatists. He would win, but it would be an actual fight rather than a push over.

Any idea about how the CSA fits in? Seems like they'd have a stake in this.

As to losing the Katana Fleet I tend to get the idea that the loss of the Eye of Palpatine stung some of his pride and plans more. 200 dreadnaughts can be looked over when nobody cares about naval expenditure anymore.

Wasn't the Eye an Imperial project? Something along the lines of the proposed "battle planetoid" from Rogue Planet.

But the Katana Fleet's loss came at a time he was clearly building up the military for the Clone Wars. I mean what better to compliment his new army and Acclamators than a shiny new navy with some real teeth? I'd imagine it's probably a set back since it does leave the TF and other Seperatists in much better position to control space.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-09-24 03:59pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Well with Dooku, again, he can play for the end game no matter what he does. If he becomes rebellious then eliminate him (via Anakin) and blame the mess on the Jedi and their teachings (neglect to mention that your assasin was a jedi). If he doesn't disobey you then use him to turn the Seperatists into the perfect paper enemy before killing him anyway.
Oh, he can certainly use it to his advantage. It would just make it much more difficult considering the power and prestige of the Seperatists. He would win, but it would be an actual fight rather than a push over.

Any idea about how the CSA fits in? Seems like they'd have a stake in this.

They suppossedly operate on an Imperial Charter IIRC. Since the GE-era begins too late for it to have been issued by them an alternative theory needs to be used. I'm guessing that one of the really old empire's (going back 4,000+ years) granted the charter which has since been honored by the Republic. Given that its unlikely they have any stake besides selling to both sides. open involvement in combat leaves them exposed as they are too far coreward and open alleigance to Coruscant cuts them off from buisness partners rimward. I bet they are playing the guy in the middle hoping neither side realize he's selling to both and making money hand over fist.

Stormbringer wrote:
As to losing the Katana Fleet I tend to get the idea that the loss of the Eye of Palpatine stung some of his pride and plans more. 200 dreadnaughts can be looked over when nobody cares about naval expenditure anymore.
Wasn't the Eye an Imperial project? Something along the lines of the proposed "battle planetoid" from Rogue Planet.

But the Katana Fleet's loss came at a time he was clearly building up the military for the Clone Wars. I mean what better to compliment his new army and Acclamators than a shiny new navy with some real teeth? I'd imagine it's probably a set back since it does leave the TF and other Seperatists in much better position to control space.

I see this two thigs:
1) the Katana fleet is nice and shiny but not important. Given the nature of the Batle of Geonosis its obvious the Acclamator's can hold their own for the time being. That said those 200 dreadnoughts won't be missed a year later because the shipbuilding program will have churned out thousands. All this plus the Victory-class Star Destroyer coming around in a few years means that the Katana Fleet loss is just a nuisance rather than a real probem. After all palpatine is running both sides and can keep his opponents from attacking while his Navy is still weak.

2) The Eye of Palpatine was one of his pet projects and very black. it also occured back in the last days of the Jedi order andwas part of the tools that he planned on using to wipe them out. Thus I think for sheer fact that it was one of his dark pet projects its loss hurt him more.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-09-24 04:08pm

Any idea about how the CSA fits in? Seems like they'd have a stake in this.

The Corporate Sector Authority was chartered by the Galactic Emperor. It does not exist in the Pre-Empire era.

PUBLIUS

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-09-24 07:55pm

Publius wrote:
Any idea about how the CSA fits in? Seems like they'd have a stake in this.
The Corporate Sector Authority was chartered by the Galactic Emperor. It does not exist in the Pre-Empire era.

PUBLIUS

Negative, it was created during the days of the Old Republic, see also SW.com and the relevant post here.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-24 07:58pm

Stormbringer wrote:Wilken's is right. He's basically playing both sides of a chess game so it's not at all difficult to tip the scales in the direction he wants. The only thing he has to worry about is Dooku challenging his authority.

Really, Palpy's had bigger setbacks from his side. The Katana Fleet going awry no doubt slowed down his naval build up.

The Katana fleet was lost before the Clone Wars, IIRC.

EDIT:

Stormbringer wrote:But the Katana Fleet's loss came at a time he was clearly building up the military for the Clone Wars. I mean what better to compliment his new army and Acclamators than a shiny new navy with some real teeth? I'd imagine it's probably a set back since it does leave the TF and other Seperatists in much better position to control space.

Even if the Katana fleet was not pre-Clone Wars...

The Katana fleet is arguably a bunch of high-tech fancy assault frigates or impressive destroyers. They can wade through local defense forces and private picket fleets, but as a major naval asset, they're no big armada or status symbol. Pre-Clone Wars KDY was arguably building more impressive heavy warships, likely outmassing the ISD or latteryear. By the later periods of the Clone Wars, the Victory-class Star Destroyer becomes the premier vessel. Remember that the Rendili StarDrive Dreadnought-class "Heavy Cruisers" are only 550 meters long, and I don't see them producing a prestige fleet out of them after they've superceeded them with a true warship like the Victory.

EDIT 2.0:

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Publius wrote:
Any idea about how the CSA fits in? Seems like they'd have a stake in this.
The Corporate Sector Authority was chartered by the Galactic Emperor. It does not exist in the Pre-Empire era.

PUBLIUS
Negative, it was created during the days of the Old Republic, see also SW.com and the relevant post here.

The Corporate Sector exists in the pre-Empire era. The Corporate Sector Authority does not, and being chartered by Emperor Palpatine, it can only exist in the Imperial era.

EDIT 3.0:

StarWars.com Databank: CSA wrote:In a bold experiment meant to free the Republic lawmakers and Corporate moneymakers from their differences, a free-enterprise fiefdom of space was carved out bordering the Aparo and Wyl sectors. This became the Corporate Sector, a section of space governed not by the Republic or the Empire that followed, but instead run by big business.

At its start, the Corporate Sector encompassed only several hundred systems, carefully chosen by the Republic for their lack of native, sentient life. But as the profits began to swell, so did the territory. By the time of the Empire, the Corporate Sector ballooned to include nearly 30,000 stars. According to official documentation, none of these worlds contained any sentient life, but in truth, eleven species were discovered, though this fact was expunged from all records.

The government of the Corporate Sector is the Corporate Sector Authority (CSA), a private corporation in its own right forged by the industrious Baron Tagge. The CSA was granted a charter by the Empire to control that portion of the galaxy. During the height of Palpatine's draconian rule, the CSA was afforded autonomy due to the huge amounts of profits that it funneled into the New Order's coffers. Within its borders, the CSA was hardly better a ruler than the Empire, though many sought refuge there from the Galactic Civil War. (emphasis added)

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-09-24 08:42pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Cmdrwilkens wrote:Negative, it was created during the days of the Old Republic, see also SW.com and the relevant post here.
The Corporate Sector exists in the pre-Empire era. The Corporate Sector Authority does not, and being chartered by Emperor Palpatine, it can only exist in the Imperial era.

1) Yes the CSA (as we know it) does not exist until baron Tagge gets things together.
2) There was a governing body for the CSA after its formation
3) That half-government half-buisness would have been running the CSA pretty much the same way as the later CSA (which is basically a cosmetic change with an Imperial charter to make things clear the Old Republic is gone).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-24 08:51pm

Wrong Wilkens. All that it says is a Sector was walled off for free trade and business. There's nothing about it being autonomous until Palpatine and the charter. Unjustified Assumption.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-09-24 10:46pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:1) Yes the CSA (as we know it) does not exist until baron Tagge gets things together.

The Corporate Sector Authority did not exist in any form prior to its incorporation by the Galactic Empire. It is not merely a question of "as we know it".

CmdrWilkens wrote:2) There was a governing body for the CSA after its formation

Yes, after the Galactic Emperor approved its charter, the Corporate Sector Authority was governed by the Direx Board, presided by the Executive Officer (ExO). The Board is composed of executive voting members designated by the voting sponsors, and one-third of the membership of the Board is composed of representatives designated by the contributing sponsors.

CmdrWilkens wrote:3) That half-government half-buisness would have been running the CSA pretty much the same way as the later CSA (which is basically a cosmetic change with an Imperial charter to make things clear the Old Republic is gone).

Incorrect, sir. Imprimis, you appear to be confusing the Corporate Sector with the Corporate Sector Authority. In the second place, you do not appear to be very familiar with the background of the Corporate Sector.

The Corporate Sector under the Republic consisted only of "several hundred systems", according to the Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook (Mr. Michael Allen Horne, 1995); the Corporate Sector ruled by the CSA comprised "nearly 30,000 unclaimed stars".

The corporations investing in the Republican Corporate Sector were subject to regulation by the Republic; the Republic supervised all operations, to protect the "civil rights and freedoms" of labour, and to ensure that the "basic integrity of each world's natural ecosphere" was preserved. The CSA had exclusive rights to administer and exploit the natural resources of the territory within its jurisdiction, and set its own standards and policies regarding labour, safety, and environmental protection.

The Republican Corporate Sector was policed by a Sector Group deployed by the Republic; in contrast, the CSA owned and operated its own naval and military forces, wholly independent of the Empire's. The CSA's Corporate Sector was "a special non-interference region, separate and autonomous" and "a limited free market fief"; the Imperial Sourcebook refers to it as a "client state". There is no evidence that the Republic's Corporate Sector enjoyed such status.

No, sir, the Corporate Sector Authority is not merely a cosmetic change with an Imperial imprimatur.

PUBLIUS

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-09-25 11:59am

what is this Eye of Palpatine everyone is talking about and what did it do?

And as to what I was really trying to get at is not if it was possible but more like if it happened that the Seperatists won; how would you envision the SW Galaxy in the time of the orginal trilogy? how would it have changed the situation?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-25 02:10pm

I see this two thigs:
1) the Katana fleet is nice and shiny but not important. Given the nature of the Batle of Geonosis its obvious the Acclamator's can hold their own for the time being. That said those 200 dreadnoughts won't be missed a year later because the shipbuilding program will have churned out thousands. All this plus the Victory-class Star Destroyer coming around in a few years means that the Katana Fleet loss is just a nuisance rather than a real probem. After all palpatine is running both sides and can keep his opponents from attacking while his Navy is still weak.

First of all, it's fairly important considering that at the time the Republic didn't have much of an effective navy. It was all leashed to core worlds and their sector fleets. There was considerably more naval assests but not availible ones.

Secondly, armament seems to move at a snails pace in the Republic. I'm sure they can build many more warships than the Katana Fleet but no one save Palpatine sees a need for it.

I'm sure he can compensate but it would be much easier now and in the long run for him to have a credible means of repelling a potential attack. Plus he seems smart enough to have the plan B since he can't guarentee Dooku won't slip his leash and turn things loose.

The Acclamtors are a troopship. A very impressive troopship but they aren't likely to last against a proper navy.

2) The Eye of Palpatine was one of his pet projects and very black. it also occured back in the last days of the Jedi order andwas part of the tools that he planned on using to wipe them out. Thus I think for sheer fact that it was one of his dark pet projects its loss hurt him more.

It probably hurt the ego more. But in terms of military affect I doubt it had much at all. It was an early imperial project and hence of far less consequence over all.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-25 02:20pm

The Katana fleet was lost before the Clone Wars, IIRC.

Yes, it was.

Even if the Katana fleet was not pre-Clone Wars...

It was pre Clone Wars, that's the point. I get the feeling that it was done in conjuction with the building of the Clone Army as part of an overall build up.

The overall analogy seems to be the demise of the Roman Republic. A crushing military buildup against an arguable threat seems to be what Palpatine is going for.

The Katana fleet is arguably a bunch of high-tech fancy assault frigates or impressive destroyers. They can wade through local defense forces and private picket fleets, but as a major naval asset, they're no big armada or status symbol. Pre-Clone Wars KDY was arguably building more impressive heavy warships, likely outmassing the ISD or latteryear. By the later periods of the Clone Wars, the Victory-class Star Destroyer becomes the premier vessel. Remember that the Rendili StarDrive Dreadnought-class "Heavy Cruisers" are only 550 meters long, and I don't see them producing a prestige fleet out of them after they've superceeded them with a true warship like the Victory.

They're not a prestige fleet or anything of the like in it's heyday. Pre-Clone Wars it represents a significant naval force. The dreadnaught-classes were the backbone of the fleet at the time. Considering that there were no naval assests free at the time it's a big step in the overall build up.

After the Clone Wars, you're right. The Dreadnaught was superceded by the Star Destroyer line. It was rightly relegated to the fringes.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-25 02:24pm

Death from the Sea wrote:what is this Eye of Palpatine everyone is talking about and what did it do?

Basically, from what I gather it's Raith Seniar's Battle Planetoid. Essentially a really big warship, essentially a baby Death Star minus the super laser.

It was supposed to be built in secret and then turned loose to exterminate an enclave of jedi children. Instead, due to the high degree of automation, it was sabotaged and lost until a former Emperor's Hand and her brat kid attempted to recover it. Naturally they failed due to an act of plot.

It's from Children of the Jedi. Read at your own risk.

And as to what I was really trying to get at is not if it was possible but more like if it happened that the Seperatists won; how would you envision the SW Galaxy in the time of the orginal trilogy? how would it have changed the situation?

They couldn't have. They could mount a credible threat and force a showdown but with Palpatine pulling the strings they really couldn't have won.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-09-25 02:25pm

i got a question: why does Palpatine build a large battlestation too destroy a few jedi, most of them childs?

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-25 02:33pm

Lex wrote:i got a question: why does Palpatine build a large battlestation too destroy a few jedi, most of them childs?

Because he didn't want Jedi children growing up and opposing him.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-25 02:55pm

Lex wrote:i got a question: why does Palpatine build a large battlestation too destroy a few jedi, most of them childs?

I'm guessing it was just a perk of having a new, bigass battlestation. It was most likely intended as a proto-Death Star. Basically, the same sort of seige weapon and long haul warship that the DS became later. The Eye was built early on in the Empire and it's possible the Death Star weren't yet possible. At least in terms of sheer power generation.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-09-25 03:04pm

Lex wrote:i got a question: why does Palpatine build a large battlestation too destroy a few jedi, most of them childs?

[grammitcal petant] childs? you cannot destroy childs. Childs is not a word if you are talking about the plural of child it is children [/grammatical petant]

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-09-25 03:50pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Wrong Wilkens. All that it says is a Sector was walled off for free trade and business. There's nothing about it being autonomous until Palpatine and the charter. Unjustified Assumption.

SW.com:
"This became the Corporate Sector, a section of space governed not by the Republic or the Empire that followed, but instead run by big business."

Seems pretty clear to me that they are stating that the Corporate Sector was self governing body set up under the auspices of Republic law (much as the Corporate Sector continued tofunciton under the Empire). Unless you claim that "...gove3rned not by the Republic" means that the Republic ran the scene I don't see how you can claim they weren't autonomous to the same degree as they would be under the Empire.

Publius: "At its start, the Corporate Sector encompassed only several hundred systems, carefully chosen by the Republic for their lack of native, sentient life. But as the profits began to swell, so did the territory. By the time of the Empire, the Corporate Sector ballooned to include nearly 30,000 stars."

As you said the Corporate Sector STARTED at only a few hundred. HOWEVER by the time of the Empire it numbered 30,000. This means BEFORE the inception of the CSA under Imperial auspices there were already 30,000 stars, that's what "by the time of" means.

This means (and in no contradiciton with the previous stat

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-25 03:52pm

It had a Republic Sector Group and answered to Republic law and regulation.

Refute this.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-09-25 03:56pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It had a Republic Sector Group and answered to Republic law and regulation.

Refute this.

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Editor's Note: The following section may be considered withdrawn as it was posted in error, For purposes of clarity to the whole thread, however, I am leaving the text as originaly posted.
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Provide a source, I've already given (and you have seen) the quote from SW.com which states that it was not governed by the Republic but rather by corporate intrests.
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Edited: for the record the CSA was considered completely autonomous but was still suppossed to adhere to Imperial law (notably laws relating to slavery see "Han Solo at Star's End").

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-25 04:11pm

Publius wrote:The corporations investing in the Republican Corporate Sector were subject to regulation by the Republic; the Republic supervised all operations, to protect the "civil rights and freedoms" of labour, and to ensure that the "basic integrity of each world's natural ecosphere" was preserved.

The Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook, as cited by Publius above and in the other thread.

Next time read what's already been posted before you make demands.