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This subject has been split off from "Palpatine's Plan B" and "corporate sector", so as to consolidate the discussion and to avoid further derailing either thread. CmdrWilkens wisely suggested consolidating this discussion, and a separate thread is probably the best venue.

CmdrWilkens wrote:

Publius wrote:As noted elsewhere, the Databank appears to have confused the Corporate Sector with the Expansion Region; the Expansion Region was "originally an experiment in corporate-controlled space", wherein the corporations themselves "had strict control of communication and transportation"; the Region was a self-governing corporatist polity, subject to the Republic but not Republican law. In this, the Expansion Region was exactly analogous to the later Corporate Sector.

Except that the databank references the attempts to work out things in teh expansion regions. It explicitly states that the Corporate Sector (which later grew into the Corporate Sector under the CSA) was not governed by the Republic.

In its prefatory paragraph, the Databank entry on the Corporate Sector Authority claims

The engines of commerce expanded the galaxy on many fronts, as enterprising scouts claimed new territories in the name of vast megacorporations. These businesses fed on exploited planets, growing richer and fatter. They would often chafe under the regulations of the Old Republic, and were able to use their bottomless wells of graft to circumvent laws that restricted their profits.

Compare this text with that of Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text:

The Expansion Region, within "The Slice," was originally an experiment in corporate-controlled space. While the profits from the region were enormous, internal strife and disturbances continually upset the region. Residents of the region were forced to live under horrible conditions, while the corporations stripped the star systems of all resources. Because the corporations had strict control of communication and transportation, few outside the Expansion Region were aware of the conditions in that area of space. Eventually, the anger of the people peaked and civil unrest spread from system to system. Due to mounting pressure from constituents, the Republic Senate took control of the Expansion Region, limiting or evicting the corporate interests.

Imprimis, note that the "Expansion Region" is a proper noun, the name of a single, discrete territory. In the second place, note that the ruthless robber barony of the Expansion Region has nothing to do with graft or kickbacks; the corporations were given legal control of the territory, and exploited it to the hilt, even restricting communication and transportation. This is an altogether different scenario than that portrayed by the Databank entry, and one may safely conclude that it does not refer to the Expansion Region, by name or otherwise.

Furthermore, the Databank entry claims that the Corporate Sector was established as "a bold experiment meant to free the Republic lawmakers and Corporate moneymakers from their differences"; herein lay the confusion between the Expansion Region and the Corporate Sector. The Corporate Sector was not an experiment; the Expansion Region was the experiment, whose failure prompted the Galactic Senate to establish the Corporate Sector as a means of placating corporate interests.

Note that the Star Wars Encyclopedia and the Star Wars Roleplaying Game, Second Edition both maintain that the Expansion Region was an experiment in a corporatist territory. Given the failure of that experiment, the establishment of the Corporate Sector can obviously not be a "bold experiment", given that it was undertaken in response to the disestablishment of corporatist rule in the Expansion Region. When considering this matter, the weight of the evidence is against the Databank entry's version.

Yet again they are still governed by overreaching laws. Notably the events of Han Solo's Revenge could not have ahppened without anti-slavery laws being imosed. laws which were Imperial in origin.

The Corporate Sector was exempted from Imperial jurisdiction. The Empire's Volksaufklärung apparatus did not operate within the Sector, and the Authority was the sole arbiter of justice and law; indeed, as hitherto remarked, the Authority was free to set its own ecological and social policies (i.e., none). The Authority was the "sole owner, employer, government and military" of the Sector according to the Lord Tagge's plan. It is in Imperial law a client state; the Star Wars Encyclopedia even goes so far as to say that the Sector was established with "the understanding that the Empire would take no direct role in the operation of the sector" (again, in keeping with the Lord Tagge's proposal, which required "no investment in the region by the Empire" and "no effort on the part of the Empire").

From the legal perspective, the Empire has little to nothing to do with the Corporate Sector, except for a very large annual tribute paid directly into HIM Treasury. However, the legal perspective is only one of the several perspectives whence to observe the relationship.

As Han Solo himself explains to Voren Na'al, Director of Research for the New Republic Inner Council:

The Empire says the Authority can run the show its own way, and there's a hundred datafiles to verify this. Big trouble is the Empire never had much interest in keeping its word. I got a friend who'll vouch for that. That's one reason why the Sector works so hard at law enforcement -- so their big siblings across the border won't have to.

Authoritarian law, and not Imperial law, is binding on the Corporate Sector, and the Empire itself acknowledges this. However, this does not mean that the Corporate Sector is immune to Imperial influence. It is in the Authority's best interests to govern its Sector's social affairs in a manner agreeable to the Empire, lest the Empire find reason to disregard its word. It is a matter of prudence on the Authority's part to duplicate certain Imperial laws, as the Empire is not shy about invading and disciplining its client states (cf. Hutt Space).

The preeminence of "Imperial" law in certain subjects is a matter of practicality, not of legality. HIM Government is not composed of idle sabre rattlers. It is generally not wise to be seen as insouciant toward a cæsarist leviathan that considers neutrality a casus belli, even if one has the right tobe. Or, perhaps more topically, even if one has the right to free speech, it is not wise to upset a Wookiee.

CmdrWilkens wrote:That doesn't mean that the Corporate Sector was not at 29,000 stars before Tagge's Plan. Given the beginning and end states (start of the CS and tiem of the CSA's incorporation) we have no real indication of the amounts intervening. however we do know that the numbers grew from the original systems to the final number of 300,000 gradually, it wasn't a one-shot deal. Now possibly the original charter during the Republic-era did not specifically cover the expansion and that is why Tagge wanted a fresh list of systems (in addition to the CSA).

Consider the following quotes, from Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text:

Of course, even these incalculable sums proved too small for the greed of these megacorporate titans. It was then that the GCPL conceived its boldest gambit yet. It wished to develop and expand the Corporate Sector. The League members realized how much potential there was if these countless riches could be given their unrestricted attentions. And so was born a monumental idea, linking vast and disparate corporate interests.

and

League members began analyzing the revenues of the existing Corporate Sector. Probes into the surrounding regions of space showed an amazing coincidence: of the thousands of stars within and near the Corporate Sector, only eleven were known to contain intelligent species, and none of them had been contacted by the Republic. With careful doctoring of evidence and discrete "first contact teams," the League could distort the evidence to show no such species. The result was an undeveloped and "uninhabited" region of space, rich with resources. Thousands of star systems were ripe for "development."

Baron Tagge, informal leader of the League, formulated a plan centered on changing the way the Corporate Sector was administered. He proposed that the region of space known as the Corporate Sector be expanded to include nearly 30,000 unclaimed stars.

Now add to that the following quote, from the Star Wars Encyclopedia:

Originally established hundreds of years ago under the Old Republic, the Corporate Sector was once a group of several hundred systems, all devoid of intelligent life. The corporations allowed to operate in the sector could purchase entire regions of space but were held in check by the watchful eye of the Republic. During the Emperor's rise to power, however, several corporate allies of Palpatine convinced him to expand the sector to encompass nearly 30,000 stars. Eleven native intelligent species were discovered in this expanded region, though this fact was effectively covered up. The CSA was established to manage the sector's operations, kicking off the modern era of the Corporate Sector.

It is clear that the expansion of the Corporate Sector was a part of the GCPL's plan for its reconstitution. The proposal was made by the Lord Tagge, and approved by the Galactic Emperor himself at court. Given that the GCPL surveyed (and found desirable) "thousands of stars within and near the Corporate Sector", it is fairly clear that the expansion approved by the Emperor was a considerable one, not a mere handful completing an existing trend.

Furthermore, there is no support for your idea that the Sector's growth must have been gradual. Even the Databank describes its growth as having "ballooned", which is certainly not suggestive of a gradual, slow expansion, but rather of a rapid inflation from a small volume to a much, much larger one.

There is no evidence for a gradual, significant growth on the part of the Sector. The Databank entry's remark is ambiguous, dating the growth only "by the time of the Empire", a vague term which refers as much to the time of the Battle of Endor as to the first year of the Emperor's principate. The "thousands of stars within and near" the Sector surveyed by the GCPL is also an ambiguous figure; there is nothing requiring that any more than "several hundred" of those stars be within the Sector, and the remainder merely near it.

CmdrWilkens wrote:Once again there is a conflict between SW.com and the Soucebook on this issue. Once more SW.com is NOT referring tothe expansion regions (that is tlaked about seperately). Thus I take it to mean that while the Republci did have a military prescence and enforced certain over-arching laws (such as anti-slavery meausures, rights of workers, etc) the did not administer local laws.

Imprimis, as already noted, the Databank entry does not discuss the Expansion Region in any way whatever.

In the second place, your contention regarding the extent of Republican presence in the Corporate Sector is curious. Conscientious enforcement of environmental protection, antislavery and labour rights statutes rather require an active and energetic agency, especially in light of the fact that the corporations of the GCPL were resentful over the enforcement of prohibitions against slavery and world-gauging. Indeed, the Star Wars Encyclopedia claims that "The corporations allowed to operate in the sector could purchase entire regions of space but were held in check by the watchful eye of the Republic" and Mr. Horne's text states that "the Republic took a much more active role than in the Expansion Region".

With regard to "local law", again, this is incompatible with the totality of the evidence. Consider the following from Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text:

n the Corporate Sector, the Republic took a much more active role than in the Expansion Region. The Republic placed itself squarely between the companies and their workers. A full naval sector group was deployed to the Corporate Sector with a dual purpose. The primary concern was protecting the civil rights and freedoms of those who chose to work and live in the Sector. The secondary concern was to make sure that the systems were responsibly managed: companies were not allowed to destroy entire planets for a few extra credits. The companies would have to operate in such a manner as to preserve the basic integrity of each world's natural ecosphere.

Despite these restrictions, most of the companies that d id business in the Expansion Region chose to set up operations in the new Corporate Sector. Tax rates were comparably low. While a general tax was paid directly to the Republic government, the companies could avoid the myriad of sector, system, planetary, and local taxes found on most worlds. While the companies had to work within carefully defined parameters, they generally had much greater freedom than on worlds with their own native governments. The companies also knew laws would be consistent throughout the sector.

Not only is it clear that the Republic legislated and regulated business activities within the Sector, it is simultaneously clear that the Sector was not laissez faire; the statutes were uniform, "carefully defined", and had the force both of law and of naval might behind them. Furthermore, the Republic levied direct taxes (albeit relatively low ones) on operations within the Corporate Sector; this cannot help but be applied to each corporation severally, and, combined with the "local laws" governing business practices, rather requires that the Republic take an active rôle in the Corporate Sector.

You must remember, sir, that the autonomy of the Authority in administering the Sector was an essential part of the Lord Tagge's proposal, and that it was a revolutionary shift in policy – so much so, in fact, that the Emperor's courtiers had been shocked by the fact that the Emperor actually approved the Corporate Sector Charter.

CmdrWilkens wrote:Once again your statement runs flat against the explicit denial in SW.com which states that the area was not governed by the Republic but was rather governed (administered if you prefer) by corporate intrests.

Actually, sir, the Databank entry does not make that claim. The Databank entry states that "a free-enterprise fiefdom of space was carved out bordering the Aparo and Wyl sectors", and that "[t]his became the Corporate Sector, a section of space governed not by the Republic or the Empire that followed, but instead run by big business".

Do you see the difference between the source itself and your claim? You claim that the Databank states that the Republic established the Corporate Sector, which was not governed by the Republic or by the Empire; the Databank says no such thing. The Databank states that the free-enterprise fiefdom became the Corporate Sector, which was not governed by the Republic or by the Empire.

Strictly speaking, that does not mean that the Corporate Sector was not governed by the Galactic Republic; rather, it means that the Corporate Sector developed at some point into a polity which was not governed by the Republic. This is, of course, true; the Corporate Sector was reconstituted by the Galactic Empire, and quite literally "became" a "section of space governed not by the Republic or the Empire that followed, but instead by run by big business".

PUBLIUS

Publius I just wanted to post this.

I finally found a copy of the sourcebook to look at myself to see if I could find something different in the wording. lacking that I concede the argument. (I actually assume that you guessed I already had but I'd rather say it bluntly).

Well unfortunately I need to rescind that which I previously posted. Yes Han Solo and the Corporate Sctor Sourcebook does lead to the conclusions you presented. Unfortunately I just found some new ammo. All the following quotes are from Star Wars Roleplaying Game: Hero's Guide WOTC.

pg 91 wrote: Nominally an independent faction, the Corporate Sector is actually answerable to the Empire; it is merely afforded more autonomy that[than] most Imperial sectors. The Empire has no military preence in the Corporate Sector, but the Emperor can "nationalize" the Corporate Sector at a whim, claiming all of the factories, warehouses, and outlets.

pg 91 wrote:...the ExO also bases decisions on the advice of the Emperor's hand-picked representative. This individual has the power of life and death over the entire Corporate Sector: One word to the Emperor and the Corporate Sector becomes a full-fledged Imperial territory.

pg 92 wrote:Extortion still being extortion, no matter what terms it was couched in, the corporations arranged with teh Republic to claim some 30,000 worlds for development and administration. The corporations moved to the newly christened Corporate Sector and not long afterward established their administrative body, the Corporate Sector Authority.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but thsoe quotes seem to be almost word for word what I have said since the beginning.

It's actually too bad that the CSA, at least as of before Nov. 4, has not appeared in the NJO; there's be mentions of it, but nothing big.

CmdrWilkens:

The evidence from the Hero's Guide does not, strictly speaking, introduce any new information about the relationship between the Empire and the Corporate Sector. The first quote (p. 91) merely indicates that the Corporate Sector has nominal autonomy, but that it still must concern itself about the Empire unilaterally disregarding the terms of the Charter. This is quite in keeping with General Solo's remarks in Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text (also quoted above):

The Empire says the Authority can run the show its own way, and there's a hundred datafiles to verify this. Big trouble is the Empire never had much interest in keeping its word. I got a friend who'll vouch for that. That's one reason why the Sector works so hard at law enforcement – so their big siblings across the border won't have to.

To wit, the CSA must always be aware that even if the Empire grants it complete autonomy de jure, that autonomy is contingent on the Empire's good graces. The CSA derives its autonomy from a Charter granted by the Galactic Emperor, and can be just as easily deprived of that autonomy by the Galactic Emperor, whose authority appears to be constitutionally unlimited.

The second quote (p. 91) merely indicates that the Galactic Emperor maintains his personal representative to the CSA's Direx Board as a sort of sword of Damocles. His influence over the Corporate Sector does not at all appear to be official or legal influence; rather, his "advice" is "duly considered" in light of the fact that he can easily speak a few words in the right ear and bring about the CSA's demise – essentially, he is able to extort the Direx Board into adopting policies agreeable to the Empire.

As Connor MacLeod has forcefully argued elsewhere, this certainly is a very real measure of control. It goes a very long way toward explaining why the CSA would adopt laws generally in line with those of the Empire (e.g., the antislavery statutes you cited from Mr. Daley's Han Solo trilogy). However, it does not establish that the Corporate Sector is directly subject to Imperial jurisdiction, which would be inconsistent with the Star Wars Encyclopedia's statement that "the Empire would take no direct role in the operation of the sector" and Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text's statement that the CSA was "sole owner, employer, government and military". This is of course a de jure condition, not a de facto one.

The third quote (p. 92) does introduce new information about the Corporate Sector's relationship with the Republic. Hitherto there has never been any evidence about how the Corporate Sector was managed before the Lord Tagge proposed the incorporation of the CSA as the "sole owner, employer, government and military", only that the Republic maintained a keen interest in the Sector's affairs. The text is clear that the corporations established an "administrative body" called the Corporate Sector Authority, but this cannot be the same entity proposed by the Lord Tagge (that CSA was created under the Empire). Perhaps the Lord Tagge's CSA was conceived as an improved version of the Republican CSA, much as his Corporate Sector was an improved version of the Republican one? It is possible, but it is also mere speculation.

More noticeably, though, the text does seem quite inconsistent with Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text and the Star Wars Encyclopedia (but not with the ambiguously worded Databank entry) regarding the expansion of the Corporate Sector. On that point, it does very much agree with your earlier claim. How do you propose that that it should be reconciled with the aforementioned sources, which appear to disagree with it?

PUBLIUS

JME2 wrote:It's actually too bad that the CSA, at least as of before Nov. 4, has not appeared in the NJO; there's be mentions of it, but nothing big.

Yes it has, it was an early setting for a short sereis published in SW Insider. They hooked up with the peace brigade.

My bad; I've really only ready the main 19 novels, not the magazine shorty stories or e-books.

One might note that the question of sovereignty is often a tenuous one. One of the best examples of this, I would think, is Papal sovereignty in the 1860s.

Or if you want a more modern example: To put it quite bluntly, how long would it take the United States of America to nationalize the Kingdom of Bahrain?

Duchess:

Yes, sovereignty does tend to become ephemeral when divorced from the "jus baculi" (e.g., the modern Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes, and of Malta, a sovereign state dating from the First Crusade whose territory is actually significantly less expansive than that of the State of the City of the Vatican). In the case of client states, protectorates, and puppet states, sovereignty is often an empty letter; the Corporate Sector is most certainly a client state whose sovereignty hangs by a moment.

This very fact is of course why the CSA would be most solicitous in accommodating the Empire's tender sensibilities, even were it not for the fact that the Galactic Emperor's personal representative to the Direx Board acts as the whispering slave in the triumphator's chariot. As General Solo rightly points out, the legality of the matter becomes a moot question if the Empire decides to interfere. De facto, the Empire does have control over the Corporate Sector, based on extortion and a willingness to do more than simply rattle its sabre; de jure, however, it remains an autonomous client state, existing as somewhat more than a protectorate and somewhat less than an ally.

CmdrWilkens:

As regards the expansion of the Corporate Sector, one possible solution to the seeming contradiction may lay in the Star Wars Encyclopedia's account (viz., "During the Emperor's rise to power, however, several corporate allies of Palpatine convinced him to expand the sector to encompass nearly 30,000 stars"). Although both this and Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text imply quite strongly that the expansion happened at the same time as the incorporation of the new Corporate Sector Authority – it was certainly a part of the Lord Tagge's overall plan for the reconstitution of the Sector – , this is not explicit.

One could judiciously reinterpret this to mean that the Lord Tagge's plan occurred in stages, beginning with the expansion of the Corporate Sector to 30,000 star systems and the incorporation of an administrative Corporate Sector Authority during the late Republic under Supreme Chancellor Palpatine (this would still qualify as "during the Emperor's rise to power"), and then proceeding to the incorporation of an expanded Corporate Sector Authority as sole employer, owner, government, and military of the entire Corporate Sector as a client state of the Galactic Empire.

Does this seem a reasonable solution to you?

PUBLIUS

I think it highly likely that the solution, wherby the majority of the expansion occured in stages surrounding Lord Tagge's plan, fits the evidence best. Alternatively it could be the difference between claiming Star Systems (and leaving them empty as might be the case during the Republic-era CS) and actually colonizing or exploiting them. I think it possible that Lord tagge's planend expansion might have had mroe to do with a new proposal for utilizing all the planets within the boundaries of the Corporate Sector. Thus while the Republic-era grant of authority defined a boundary of control for the Corporate Sector (which just happened to encompass the 30,000 systems) the Republic-era CSA did not expand itself to the point of direct governance over those worlds, instead leaving them temproarily untouched.

Also as to the switch between the Republic-era CSA and that proposed by Lord tagge I think I might have found a reason for the two different bodies to exist. Again I quote the Hero's Guide

pg 92 wrote: With the advent of the Clone Wars, many Corporate Sector systems declared for the Separatists, and after they were defeated, the Empire sent in ships and troops to "pacify" those systems. The Direx Board negotiated with the recently declared Emperor Palpatine for their autonomy to be restored.

Palpatine granted the CSA's request, with the stipulation that a full 3% of the Corporate Sector gross profit should go toward the Imperial Reconstruction Fund. Further, the Corporate Sector would provide 9% of its industrial materialsand 20% of certain military strategic materials to help rebuild the Empire's war-depleted fleet. The Direx Board signed the agreement and the Corporate Sector has enjoyed virtual self-determination ever since.

From this it seems to me that Lord tagge's ambitious reconstruction plan might be interpreted as the "plea" by the Direx Board. In this case I would rather suspect that the Hero's Guide might be making too much of a point of desperation in the tone. Nonetheless I think that might be the best way to udnerstand how the CSA transitioned governments and also the circumstances under which they did so. Though I would note that occupation of CSA worlds by the Empire and then their release subject to taxation makes them appear much more than a client state and more like a semi-independent territory included in the Empire under extraordinary circumstances.

hmmmmmm interesting...