Thrawn at battle of Endor

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-09-28 02:51am

What would happen if Grand Admiral Thrawn was in command at Endor ? Would the Empire win ?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 02:52am

Probably. Despite being a strategic imbecile he would not have involved himself in the Skywalker family drama, allowing him to concentrate on the battle.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-28 03:35am

evilcat4000 wrote:What would happen if Grand Admiral Thrawn was in command at Endor ? Would the Empire win ?

Pellaeon often wondered that himself, but I think the sudden loss of cohesion would have forced Thrawn to retreat as well, though probably with fewer losses.

Durran Korr wrote:Probably. Despite being a strategic imbecile he would not have involved himself in the Skywalker family drama, allowing him to concentrate on the battle.

...did you just refer to Grand Admiral Thrawn as a "strategic imbecile"?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-09-28 04:04am

Had the Imperial fleet opened up on the Rebels immediately, and put great effort towards killing all of the fighters, it would have been an easy win.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-09-28 06:48am

The only thing he would have to do differently is assigne a couple hunder Noghri to ambush Han & Co. at the shield generator bunker, before they have a change to enter the bunker.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-09-28 07:01am

If he was in charge aboard the Executor when Han and Co. showed up there's a good chance he could have talked Vader into capturing the shuttle right then and there instead of letting it through.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-09-28 07:12am

This depends who Thrawn replaces, Peitt, Vader or Palpy.
If he replaces Palpy, everything is done differently the bunker is properly defended, and he doesn't use the Death Star as a phsycological weapon and just instructs the fleet to pound the hell out of the rebels.
If he replaces Vader, things happen as before but the fleet concentates on blowing the rebels out of the sky rather that showing of to skywalker.
If he replaces piett, he just tells vader to tractor the rebels in the bay and stun skywalker.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-09-28 07:20am

Well since Thrawn's a Grand Admiral Piett would make the most sense of who to replace.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-09-28 10:08am

It wouldn't change shit unless palpatine gave him a free hand. Piett could have crushed the rebels if he hadn't had his hands tied by the plan.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-09-28 10:22am

It was Vader who let the shuttle through, Piett didn't have a choice in the matter (unless he wanted to end up like Needa etc.)

Thrawn wouldn't have Vader to worry about, being a Grand Admiral and all; he'd only have to answer to Palptine.

Since Palpatine's plan was to turn Luke to the darkside letting Thrawn capture him earlier on wouldn't have gone against the plan.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-09-28 02:03pm

I think it would have gone very different. IMHO Thrawn would have realised the tatical error in only letting the Tie's attack the Rebel Fleet and he'd have convinced Palpy to let him attack with all fire power. In Thrawns career he has several times refused to let attacks because they where doomed. While the Attack didn't seem doomed Thrawn was a man who believed in making things a sure thing.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-28 02:34pm

Unless Thrawn replaces the Emperor things don't change much. It was Palpy rather moronic plan that doomed the Imperials to defeat on Endor and Thrawn wouldn't have been able to do more than simply carry it out.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-09-28 02:43pm

Stormbringer wrote:Unless Thrawn replaces the Emperor things don't change much. It was Palpy rather moronic plan that doomed the Imperials to defeat on Endor and Thrawn wouldn't have been able to do more than simply carry it out.

Did you even bother to read my earlier post?

Wild Karrde wrote:It was Vader who let the shuttle through, Piett didn't have a choice in the matter (unless he wanted to end up like Needa etc.)

Thrawn wouldn't have Vader to worry about, being a Grand Admiral and all; he'd only have to answer to Palptine.

Since Palpatine's plan was to turn Luke to the darkside letting Thrawn capture him earlier on wouldn't have gone
against the plan.

I also might add that Palpatine ignored Thrawn only once when he first met Thrawn; Palpatine paid dearly for not listening to Thrawn and from that point on followed pretty much all advice Thrawn gave him.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-28 02:50pm

Wild Karrde wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Unless Thrawn replaces the Emperor things don't change much. It was Palpy rather moronic plan that doomed the Imperials to defeat on Endor and Thrawn wouldn't have been able to do more than simply carry it out.
Did you even bother to read my earlier post?

Yes, and it really doesn't have anything to do with the point. Unless Thrawn has the ultimate say the whole thing still turns into a defeat for the Empire. It was the Emperors plan that lead to it all falling apart. At best, Thrawn might have prevented it from turning into a rout after the Emperor died and the Death Star2 was destroyed. Even that's unlikely though since the sheer morale collapse would devestate the fleet's fighting ability.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-09-28 03:28pm

IF Thrawn was allowed to run the show, the outcome might have been very different. And even if he wasn't, Thrawn went up against Palpatine at least four times when he thought the Emperor was run in his plans.

However, I do not think Thrawn would have made a difference. The "rebel luck" or the Force/Fate would have still brought around a defeat for the Empire. Sounds like a cop out answer, but that's what I believe. That the events were being guided by the Force at least. Emperor Palpatine was shown a future that showed him parts of what he wanted to see to suggest victory but ended up in his defeat.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-09-28 03:39pm

Stormbringer wrote:Yes, and it really doesn't have anything to do with the point. Unless Thrawn has the ultimate say the whole thing still turns into a defeat for the Empire. It was the Emperors plan that lead to it all falling apart. At best, Thrawn might have prevented it from turning into a rout after the Emperor died and the Death Star2 was destroyed. Even that's unlikely though since the sheer morale collapse would devestate the fleet's fighting ability.

But it does. The Emperor trust Thrawn implicitly.

Thrawn is the only person in the galaxy who has refused to follow the Emperor's Naval plans several times and lived to tell about it. The Emperor trust what he says because he's nearly always right.

When the shuttle arrives at Endor Thrawn would order it captured and Luke presented to the Emperor. Even if Vader turns at the very least the rebel fleet would be crushed, it's main leadership killed, and the DS protected due to there beng no rebel strike team to blow up the sheild generator.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 03:55pm

...did you just refer to Grand Admiral Thrawn as a "strategic imbecile"?

Yeah, he was...rather than trying to court other imperial warlords that would have helped the campaign against the rebels, he tried to do it all by himself. IP is much better at this than I am, by the way, he can go on for paragraphs about it.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-28 04:02pm

Durran Korr wrote:Yeah, he was...rather than trying to court other imperial warlords that would have helped the campaign against the rebels, he tried to do it all by himself. IP is much better at this than I am, by the way, he can go on for paragraphs about it.

I don't think so. The surviving Imperial warlords in the Deep Core were too busy killing each other to put up any sort of fight against the Rebels. The only time the Core World's forces were ever under control is when Daala killed all of them.

I think Thrawn's big mistake was trusting C'Baoth with his own ship to go to Wayland without any ysalimiri blocking his powers. The only reason the threat didn't materialize was because of C'Baoth's death.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 04:21pm

I don't think so. The surviving Imperial warlords in the Deep Core were too busy killing each other to put up any sort of fight against the Rebels. The only time the Core World's forces were ever under control is when Daala killed all of them.

And Thrawn made no overtures to ally himself with any of them. Prince Admiral-Krennel, for example, had a large territory enough territory to support construction of a DS, but Thrawn isolated him.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-09-28 04:23pm

Durran Korr wrote:
I don't think so. The surviving Imperial warlords in the Deep Core were too busy killing each other to put up any sort of fight against the Rebels. The only time the Core World's forces were ever under control is when Daala killed all of them.
And Thrawn made no overtures to ally himself with any of them. Prince Admiral-Krennel, for example, had a large territory enough territory to support construction of a DS, but Thrawn isolated him.

What Krennel could never build a death star, he could have carried out the research but the actually construction would have been beyond him IIRC.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 04:25pm

Source?

Regardless, Krennels's territory (which included Tarkin's territory) contained resources that would have helped the campaign against the NR, and Thrawn did not take advantage of this. Idiotic.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-28 04:26pm

Durran Korr wrote:And Thrawn made no overtures to ally himself with any of them.

And why should he? They were traitors to the Empire, after all. Thrawn may have been a genious, but he was still loyal to the Empire and wasn't going to deal with traitors who are no better than the Rebellion. These guys had already broken away from Palpatine's empire after his death, why would they rejoin now that Thrawn had taken up the reigns?

Prince Admiral-Krennel, for example, had a large territory enough territory to support construction of a DS

I thought that Star Wars Ride silliness was non-canon.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-28 04:32pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:Yeah, he was...rather than trying to court other imperial warlords that would have helped the campaign against the rebels, he tried to do it all by himself. IP is much better at this than I am, by the way, he can go on for paragraphs about it.
I don't think so. The surviving Imperial warlords in the Deep Core were too busy killing each other to put up any sort of fight against the Rebels. The only time the Core World's forces were ever under control is when Daala killed all of them.

All wrong.

The former Imperial Starfleet commanders and Sectorial governors who promptly went at one another's throats, did so following the execution of the usurper, Xandel Carivus, by Kir Kanos and the subsequent collapse of all remaining central Imperial authority. It was HIM, the Emperor Palpatine's failure, even after witnessing the first collapse of the Empire, to establish a method of succession and an Imperial government not dependent on himself.

Thusly, the chaos in the Deep Core leading up to the time Admiral Daala murdered the most important warlords is a symptom of Palpatine's poor judgement and decisions during his return, and has nothing to do with the warlords before Palpatine's return.

Remember, Palpatine gladly offered that the warlords return, and all of the important ones did (Karrsk, Teradoc, Kaine, etc.).

The warlords in pre-Operation Shadow Hand period (ie. "Prince-Admiral" Krennel of Cuitric Hegemony, Grand Moff Ardus Kaine of the Pentastar Allignment, Admiral Drommel, High Admiral Teradoc, and "Supreme Warlord" Harrsk) were not butchering each other. It is probable that some of them, particularly Governor Kaine, had already been contacted by HIM. Governor Kaine was known to be a Palpatine loyalist, and earnestly rejected post-Endor Imperial authority on concerns that it was illegitimate, which it was.

I suppose you'd like to post proof that the warlords after the fall of Coruscant, and before Palpatine's return were behaving identically to those after the final collapse of the Galactic Empire?

EDIT: Krennel and Kaine were definitely NOT traitors. They defected following a wholely illegal and illegitimate siezure of power by the Director of Intelligence, and rightfully resisted. Kaine particularly, was loyal to Palpatine, and gladly returned to his Master when he revealed himself. He had no loyalty for usurpers.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 04:33pm

And why should he? They were traitors to the Empire, after all. Thrawn may have been a genious, but he was still loyal to the Empire and wasn't going to deal with traitors who are no better than the Rebellion. These guys had already broken away from Palpatine's empire after his death, why would they rejoin now that Thrawn had taken up the reigns?

What's more important, ideology or winning the war?

I thought that Star Wars Ride silliness was non-canon.

Krennel was referenced in The Essential Chronology, IIRC.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-28 04:45pm

Durran Korr wrote:What's more important, ideology or winning the war?

A bit of both. Sure, Thrawn could've "won" the war by falling in with the New Republic, but that wouldn't have been an Imperial victory then would it? In the same vein he could've allied himself with the squabbling Core World warlords, but then he would have been forsaking the government he was fighting in the name of, and he would've been a traitor too.

Krennel was referenced in The Essential Chronology, IIRC.

Not Krennel, but the construction of the "Death Star 3".

And, IP, I honestly have no idea what you just said. I'm not sure some of those sentences were grammatically correct...

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Thrawn at battle of Endor

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