A Star Wars question

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-09-29 08:11am

Why could not the Emperor with all his incredible powers in the darkside of the Force could not forsee his own destruction ?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-29 08:28am

The title should be more relevent to the question, really...

Anyway, as Yoda says, "Cloudy, the future is." Seeing the future other than basic precognition seems to be very difficult to do, even for Yoda and Palpatine, two of the most powerful Force-users who ever lived...

Old Plympto · Post by **Old Plympto** » 2003-09-29 08:29am

"Always in motion is the future."

Over his years as the Emperor, he probably forsaw his own death countless of times, what with the Imperial intrigue and th Civil War being what they are. When new things happen in the galaxy, like the induction of a treacherous courtier or the winning of a battle by Imperial forces, he probably saw his fall or his ultimate victory in alternation.

When he allowed Vader to bring Luke to see him, he probably forsaw many results of the meeting: anywhere from Luke and Vader in the dark side turing against him, or Luke killing Vader and taking his place, or Vader killing Luke and all goes as normal, or Vader killing Luke and turning against Palpatine, and of course, what we saw in the movie.

After so many farseeing of his death, he could have been de-sensitized to these precognition and decided that the risk was acceptable and tried to turn Luke anyway despite warnings of his own death.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-09-29 09:01am

Very good explanation.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-09-29 09:26am

Or he could be egoistic enough to believe that the only time he will die is when he's surronded by hundreds of beautiful girls naked around him and willing to let him do anything, and I mean anything to them

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-09-29 09:47am

PainRack wrote:Or he could be egoistic enough to believe that the only time he will die is when he's surronded by hundreds of beautiful girls naked around him and willing to let him do anything, and I mean anything to them

I think he already had the power to arrange something like that.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2003-09-29 11:42am

Another item to consider is that users of the Dark Side may not see the future the same way that the Jedi do.

Part of the seduction of the Dark Side is the power it grants. Maybe the Dark side only treats you to possible futures that you want to see. This entices the user to further along their dark path.

This would explain how he never expected Darth Maul to die at Obi-Wan's hand or how he did not expect Vader to ever turn on him.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-09-29 12:02pm

Actually it could chalked up to pure arrogance.

He might've seen his death and just simply ignored it because he believed because he was the dominant Dark Sider/Sith that it was incocievable that he would lose to a neophyte Jedi.

It's been pointed a few times that he saw the Endor battle going badly and just simply didn't agree with it and only accepted a vision that insured victory.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-09-29 01:35pm

Remember The Emporer said

Palpatine wrote:everything is proceeeding as I have forseen

So it seems that he could only see the events that he wanted to see in the future and as such was decieved by his own ego. Remember the different attitudes about seeing the future expressed by Yoda and other light side Jedi in that they never trust any vision of the future as being set in stone because

Yoda wrote:Always in motion is the future.

so it seems that it is just a case of the Emporer's perceived invincibility that allowed him to not see all the possibilities. It is very clear that he intended for Luke to kill Vader all along anyway

Palpatine wrote:Now take your father's place at my side!

it seems a habit of his to replace his apprentice the moment he could pose a threat to his position as Sith Master. Maul->Tyranus->Vader->Luke though Luke refused to turn and murder his father in cold blood.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-29 03:38pm

evilcat4000 wrote:Why could not the Emperor with all his incredible powers in the darkside of the Force could not forsee his own destruction ?

The farther oyu see into the future, the cloudier things become due to substantial increase in the number of factors, probabilities, etc.

As for "Palpatine" forseeing things, he didn't foresee Skywalker's presence (he didn't even *detect* him on Endor). Lets not forget the gross arrogance he displayed ("your overconfidence is your weakness.") which lead to the fuckups regarding the Rebel vs Imperial fleet, etc. Just because he foresaw something doesnt neccesarily mean it was a guaranteed certainty.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-09-29 05:20pm

To borrow a phrase, Jedi "remember the future." The closer something is to them, the more clearly they will be able to see it, but the future is always changing. What the Emperor saw was a possible future, but as things began to fulfill his vision ("All is proceeding as I have forseen."), he grew more and more confident in his vision of the Battle of Endor, and the final destruction of the Alliance.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-09-29 07:05pm

My theory is that is has to do with the clouding of the future by the light-side.

In the Prequel Trilogy, the jedi are masters of the universe and the light side is dominant. However, the jedi seem to be losing their ability to control the force. Yoda can sense things are not well, that the future is a dark one, but he cannot put his finger on it. In TPM he continues to speak of a clouding of the future, making it diffcult for him to forsee events. How is it that the most powerful force-user alive is no longer able to master the force and forsee the future? The answer lies with the rise of the Dark Side.

Unbeknownst to Yoda, Darth Sidious has been secretly training his apprentice, growing in power and planning to overtake the galaxy soon. It is the dark side that is causing the balance of the force to shift away from the jedi. By AOTC, Yoda states "the dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is."

so if the dark side can cloud the dominant light side, why cant the light side cloud the dominant dark side?

Around the time of ANH, the Emperor and his minions are pretty much unchallenged as far as the force is concerned. Luke is just a farm boy on Tatooine and Yoda and Obi Wan are banished as hermits. At this point, The Emperor could probably have forseen future events qute clearly, just as the Jedi could in the days of the Republic. However the moment Obi Wan begins instructing Luke onboard the Millenium Falcon the force-balance begins to shift. By the time he leaves Dagobah, he has gained so much power that the Emperor is in the same position Yoda was in AOTC. The light side is growing stronger and the dark side is weakening. Its a reversal of the roles of the Prequel Trilogy. By the time Luke is a jedi in ROTJ the balance of the force would have perverted the darksides vision of the future.

Interestingly, Darth Vader is able to forsee events in ROTJ where the Emperor cannot--the brewing light-side within him has given him a brief sense of clarity.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-29 11:16pm

zombie84 wrote:My theory is that is has to do with the clouding of the future by the light-side.

In the Prequel Trilogy, the jedi are masters of the universe and the light side is dominant. However, the jedi seem to be losing their ability to control the force. Yoda can sense things are not well, that the future is a dark one, but he cannot put his finger on it. In TPM he continues to speak of a clouding of the future, making it diffcult for him to forsee events. How is it that the most powerful force-user alive is no longer able to master the force and forsee the future? The answer lies with the rise of the Dark Side.

Unbeknownst to Yoda, Darth Sidious has been secretly training his apprentice, growing in power and planning to overtake the galaxy soon. It is the dark side that is causing the balance of the force to shift away from the jedi. By AOTC, Yoda states "the dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is."

so if the dark side can cloud the dominant light side, why cant the light side cloud the dominant dark side?

Around the time of ANH, the Emperor and his minions are pretty much unchallenged as far as the force is concerned. Luke is just a farm boy on Tatooine and Yoda and Obi Wan are banished as hermits. At this point, The Emperor could probably have forseen future events qute clearly, just as the Jedi could in the days of the Republic. However the moment Obi Wan begins instructing Luke onboard the Millenium Falcon the force-balance begins to shift. By the time he leaves Dagobah, he has gained so much power that the Emperor is in the same position Yoda was in AOTC. The light side is growing stronger and the dark side is weakening. Its a reversal of the roles of the Prequel Trilogy. By the time Luke is a jedi in ROTJ the balance of the force would have perverted the darksides vision of the future.

Interestingly, Darth Vader is able to forsee events in ROTJ where the Emperor cannot--the brewing light-side within him has given him a brief sense of clarity.

Except Anakin was supposed to bring the Force into balance. Having the lightside "cloud" the Dark side would require some sort of imbalance.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2003-09-29 11:24pm

evilcat4000 wrote:Why could not the Emperor with all his incredible powers in the darkside of the Force could not forsee his own destruction ?

Simple, pure arrogance! Just like Ghost Rider said.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-09-29 11:31pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
zombie84 wrote:snip
Except Anakin was supposed to bring the Force into balance. Having the lightside "cloud" the Dark side would require some sort of imbalance.

Yeah, it would, in the form of Luke. Anakin balances the force when he kills the Emperor and wipes out the sith.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-09-29 11:44pm

My theory follows the will of the Force. The Force allows people what it wants them to see. Sure, it's a TRUE vision of PART of the future, but it's never the whole story.. only what the Force wants them to see and what the person wants to see into it.

It's kind of like a movie trailer. Edited to put scenes together that has the viewer guessing into the meaning of disjointed scenes.

So I'm guessing that's much like the way visions of the future is. As Luke saw Mara "dead" he only saw a glimpse of the future out of context and thought she was dead when the future actually had her in a force-induced hibernation so she WOULDN'T be dead. But that vision sent him on a path that the Force wanted him to go.

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