StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Is it a particular "flavor" of the Force?
what?

I've never heard of this "White Current".... but from its name I suppose it's another word for the "light side".

It comes from the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy.

Enola Straight wrote:Is it a particular "flavor" of the Force?
what?

Probably The Force as understood by a different theological traditon. Remember there were those weird aliens from the VotF that supposedly had bettered the Jedi's understanding of the those. They had a veiw of the Force that was much wider than the Light Side/Dark Side pairing of the Jedi and Sith. It's probably something more akin to that.

The White Current is analogous to the Force in the belief system professed by the Fallanassi in Mr. Michael P. Kube-McDowell's Black Fleet Crisis trilogy. It can be basically understood as a feminist (in the philosophical sense) counterpart to the "patriarchal" Force as understood by the Jedi and derivative sects. As with most feminist philosophers, the White Current's adherents are generally obnoxious and self-righteous.

Remember, Shaidar Haran, that the dualism of the Force is a Jedi doctrine, but not a Sith one. Although the Sith originated as an heretical Jedi sect, their beliefs subsequently evolved to the point that Darth Sidious professes that the "light side" and "dark side" are academic distinctions, not objective ones (ref. Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter), and that the Galactic Emperor prefers the dark side because he believes it is stronger, not because he believes it "superior" (ref. Return of the Jedi novelisation).

PUBLIUS

As has been stated in the EU, the Force is not Dark and Light there is a whole rainbow of power, The Force, dark and lightsides are just one of those colours, the Fallenassie(sp) are another and the T'something Monks are another.

Lord Pounder wrote:As has been stated in the EU, the Force is not Dark and Light there is a whole rainbow of power, The Force, dark and lightsides are just one of those colours, the Fallenassie(sp) are another and the T'something Monks are another.

T'something=Ai'Ting

A different understanding of the force.

EVERYONE has an innate ability to use the force to some extent as Luke mentioned in the Courtship of Princess Leia. To be a Jedi, you need to have a much more innate ability to reach out to the force and all that power either corrupts you or you have to dedicate your life to protecting people from those who are corrupted.

The white current and a'ing-tii monks have a different understanding of the force and have learned to use the powers of the force without being a Jedi. As to whether or not an A'ing Tii would be more powerful than a Jedi? I would say they could wipe the Jedi out. Though if the Jedi could spare the time learning the ways of the monks, the Jedi probably would be more natural monks. Though that's a moot point. The entire emphasis of the monks and the time it takes to learn their ways is a lifetime of dedication.

The current is learning about the reflections of the force essentially. They have learned how to hide themselves in the force. Eyes can be deceived, and they are the master deceptors. Luke learned a little of their ways in a short amount of time and put it to great use rescuing Lando.

the white current is also when the people subtly maniputate the "flow" of the force thru an area, ie they can leave markers in the flow for later people to find

Trytostaydead wrote:The current is learning about the reflections of the force essentially. They have learned how to hide themselves in the force. Eyes can be deceived, and they are the master deceptors. Luke learned a little of their ways in a short amount of time and put it to great use rescuing Lando.

The Fallanassi ability to conceal themselves is by no means unique. Darth Sidious has demonstrated a remarkable talent at it in The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, and even the Emperor's Dark Jedi were able to "mask their thoughts" and appear on New Alderaan without warning in Dark Empire II. Of course, the Krath Society -- whose arcana were studied thoroughly by the Galactic Emperor -- lay claim to the most grandiose and impressive illusions of all. There is a distinct trend that the sort of deception practised by the Fallanassi is of the dark side of the Force.

PUBLIUS

Publius wrote: There is a distinct trend that the sort of deception practised by the Fallanassi is of the dark side of the Force.

PUBLIUS

Mmm, no. Remember, the difference between the Dark side and the Light side is the purpose that one uses the force for. They're all dipping from the same well.

Actually according to later EU and Prequal EU there is no Light and Dark, just the Force.

Lord Pounder wrote:Actually according to later EU and Prequal EU there is no Light and Dark, just the Force.

That though is contradicted by what Yoda says in the movies when he clearly states that there is a Light and Dark Side of the Force. One is accessed through calm and inner peace while the other is accessed trhough anger, rage, and hatred. This is obvious from the expressions on the face of the Emperor in ROTJ and Tyrannus in AOTC when they both use Force Lightning.

So one can throw all of the EU stuff out when it comes to the Force and "other" Force users.

The AOTC clearly shows that almost all of the Galaxy is well mapped out. I seriously doubt any "Force" using group that exists in the SW galaxy could stay in hiding and use the Force better than the Jedi and Sith can considering the scope and time they have perfected their abilities.

Actually that doesn't contradict my quote. Remember that "the truths we cling to depend on a certain point of view" Even the actions of the Jedi don't all fall into Light and Dark, but the gray areas between. Making Luke Skywalker into an agressive weapon to kill Vader and Palpy is an agressive act but neither Ben no Yoda where tainted by the Darkside for doing that, why? Because the Light and Dark is just a state of mind.

That though is contradicted by what Yoda says in the movies when he clearly states that there is a Light and Dark Side of the Force. One is accessed through calm and inner peace while the other is accessed trhough anger, rage, and hatred. This is obvious from the expressions on the face of the Emperor in ROTJ and Tyrannus in AOTC when they both use Force Lightning.

So one can throw all of the EU stuff out when it comes to the Force and "other" Force users.

And Yoda is an unbiased source? That's like taking the Pope's word on the extistance of heaven and hell. The Jedi are a religious order and an arrogant one at that. We have to take any statements he made in light of that simple fact.

It's entirely possible that the Jedi have a limited or biased understanding of the Force. Certainly there are grey areas and ambiguities in their veiw of the Force.

The AOTC clearly shows that almost all of the Galaxy is well mapped out. I seriously doubt any "Force" using group that exists in the SW galaxy could stay in hiding and use the Force better than the Jedi and Sith can considering the scope and time they have perfected their abilities.

A Sith Lord is hiding in their very midst. They see him on a regular basis. If he can hide then I'm sure another group that has the same skill at deception could hide in the whole, vast reaches of the galaxy.

Stormbringer wrote:

That though is contradicted by what Yoda says in the movies when he clearly states that there is a Light and Dark Side of the Force. One is accessed through calm and inner peace while the other is accessed trhough anger, rage, and hatred. This is obvious from the expressions on the face of the Emperor in ROTJ and Tyrannus in AOTC when they both use Force Lightning.

So one can throw all of the EU stuff out when it comes to the Force and "other" Force users.

And Yoda is an unbiased source? That's like taking the Pope's word on the extistance of heaven and hell. The Jedi are a religious order and an arrogant one at that. We have to take any statements he made in light of that simple fact.

It's entirely possible that the Jedi have a limited or biased understanding of the Force. Certainly there are grey areas and ambiguities in their veiw of the Force.

The AOTC clearly shows that almost all of the Galaxy is well mapped out. I seriously doubt any "Force" using group that exists in the SW galaxy could stay in hiding and use the Force better than the Jedi and Sith can considering the scope and time they have perfected their abilities.

A Sith Lord is hiding in their very midst. They see him on a regular basis. If he can hide then I'm sure another group that has the same skill at deception could hide in the whole, vast reaches of the galaxy.

Did you miss the part where I said someone other than a Jedi or Sith?

Yoda a arrogant biased source? LOL, you can say that about many of the Jedi but I dare you to come up with a single instance where Yoda shows bias or arrogance in any of the movies. Yoda is about the least prideful person you will see in the entire SW series.


BTW, this has nothing to do with bias or opinion. It is about Canon. Yoda's statements stand as fact until refuted by another equally canon source. Until then those statements pretty well flatten a good portion of the "other types of force user" drivel EU writers have put out over the years.

Did you miss the part where I said someone other than a Jedi or Sith?

And did you notice where I said if a Sith could hide under the Jedi's very nose then another group of Force users could easily hide when they have the whole galaxy to do it in?

Yoda a arrogant biased source? LOL, you can say that about many of the Jedi but I dare you to come up with a single instance where Yoda shows bias or arrogance in any of the movies. Yoda is about the least prideful person you will see in the entire SW series.

Yoda is the head of what is in effect a religious order. That means he has certain preconceptions taught to him and he has in turn accepted them. He's not personally arrogant but when it comes to it he's got a fair amount of arrogance as the head of his order.

The fact is we have only his word, which he has a vested interest in, is only his word on the matter. He's an authority but his word is that of a fallible, imperfect being.

BTW, this has nothing to do with bias or opinion. It is about Canon. Yoda's statements stand as fact until refuted by another equally canon source. Until then those statements pretty well flatten a good portion of the "other types of force user" drivel EU writers have put out over the years.

True, but your confusing canon fact with canon character's statement. An Executors length is 17 km, that's fact. Obi-wan's "certain points of veiw" are simply the words we know he said. As we've come to know, he can both lie and be wrong. Accepting his words as absolute fact is not especially wise.

The EU stands. Yoda's fallible statements do not preclude other groups of Force users with different abilities and understandings of the Force.

You are assuming and avoiding the subject. Tell me one time that Yoda has shown arrogance, lied, been prideful, or anything else that would suggest that his statements are anything but fact.

"He is too old, too old to begin the training."

The training began (and was successfully completed, I might add), therefore Yoda did not speak the truth.

MrAnderson wrote:You are assuming and avoiding the subject. Tell me one time that Yoda has shown arrogance, lied, been prideful, or anything else that would suggest that his statements are anything but fact.

Howedar provided a damn good example of Yoda being a stiff necked, arrogant fool. Anakin wasn't too old to be trained and it seems that the best reason he could give was Jedi doctrine.

Another example was him saying that Luke was the last of the Jedi. In fact, it seems you can't go anywhere with out stepping on one.

And in the end none of that proves that Yoda is infallible. It's not impossible for him to be wrong. If you wish to claim he is infallible the it behoves you to prove it.

Stormbringer wrote: Howedar provided a damn good example of Yoda being a stiff necked, arrogant fool. Anakin wasn't too old to be trained and it seems that the best reason he could give was Jedi doctrine.

No, I think Yoda was being prudent. I got the strong feeling he definately felt something that gave him hesitation. But Yoda apparently though likes teaching the children, and maybe in his several hundred years of experience he found those that discovered the Force later in life perhaps didn't accept the doctrines of the Jedi easily and were more prone to pride and arrogance in their abilities. Who knows.. conjecture really..

But, yes.. there is no light or dark side of the Force. There is only one Force, one river, one well. But it's the way that people tap into that power, or the way the Force prods you to go. Otherwise the Force would be at constant ends with each other ripping each other apart. The Dark Side would ALWAYS be constantly trying to up the ante on the light.. so instead of a prophecy to bring balance, the Dark Side would've made damn sure that there would be no damn balance to the force.

Stormbringer wrote:

MrAnderson wrote:You are assuming and avoiding the subject. Tell me one time that Yoda has shown arrogance, lied, been prideful, or anything else that would suggest that his statements are anything but fact.

Howedar provided a damn good example of Yoda being a stiff necked, arrogant fool. Anakin wasn't too old to be trained and it seems that the best reason he could give was Jedi doctrine.

Another example was him saying that Luke was the last of the Jedi. In fact, it seems you can't go anywhere with out stepping on one.

And in the end none of that proves that Yoda is infallible. It's not impossible for him to be wrong. If you wish to claim he is infallible the it behoves you to prove it.

Anakin became Darth Vader and is instrumental in the destruction of the Jedi and the reign of the Emperor. Even if he turns back in ROTJ he doesnt do nearly enough to offset what he did as Vader.

Yoda was very much right to be opposed to Anakin's training.

Yep, he said he was the last of the Jedi. Which is very true when only considering the movies and thus also badly dropping the canon status of any EU novel that has an actual Jedi in it. By Jedi I mean a trained used of the light side of the Force. Yoda's statement would mean nothing in regards to Sith apprentices or untrained force users that Luke later trains as Jedi.


Since neither of your arguements stand up to even cursory examination I do not see that I have to prove anything else. In fact I do not see a single fact that you have proven.

Trytostaydead wrote:

Stormbringer wrote: Howedar provided a damn good example of Yoda being a stiff necked, arrogant fool. Anakin wasn't too old to be trained and it seems that the best reason he could give was Jedi doctrine.

But, yes.. there is no light or dark side of the Force. There is only one Force, one river, one well. But it's the way that people tap into that power, or the way the Force prods you to go. Otherwise the Force would be at constant ends with each other ripping each other apart. The Dark Side would ALWAYS be constantly trying to up the ante on the light.. so instead of a prophecy to bring balance, the Dark Side would've made damn sure that there would be no damn balance to the force.

You are assuming that the Force has a will and intelligence behind it.

Howedar wrote:"He is too old, too old to begin the training."

The training began (and was successfully completed, I might add), therefore Yoda did not speak the truth.

A whimsical statement made to the ghost of Obi-Wan and done more as a test of Luke to see how he would respond than an actual statement of intent. It is obvious to anyone with a brain that Yoda was trying to push Luke emotionally to see how much it took to get Luke to be angry.

You have to lookat it in context. Yoda didnt want to train a child as young as Anakin cause he was "too old" now he is looking at Luke who is in his early 20's and he knows that Luke is the son of Anakin.

Yoda had to know the danger that he might create someone worse than Vader when he trained Luke.

MrAnderson wrote:

Howedar wrote:"He is too old, too old to begin the training."

The training began (and was successfully completed, I might add), therefore Yoda did not speak the truth.

A whimsical statement made to the ghost of Obi-Wan and done more as a test of Luke to see how he would respond than an actual statement of intent. It is obvious to anyone with a brain that Yoda was trying to push Luke emotionally to see how much it took to get Luke to be angry.

You have to lookat it in context. Yoda didnt want to train a child as young as Anakin cause he was "too old" now he is looking at Luke who is in his early 20's and he knows that Luke is the son of Anakin.

Yoda had to know the danger that he might create someone worse than Vader when he trained Luke.

Again you still haven't proved Yoda infallible. If we're to dimiss the EU like you claim we must you have to prove that Yoda is infallible.