Duality of the Force

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-10-21 05:44am

Ever since Destiny Way come out, there has been numerous SW and even Trekkie debators who have started epousing that "There is no Dark and Light Side".

Instead, I would like to say that Vegere POV, is actually more in line with the Force, as we learnt in the OT, then Master Skywalker interpretation in post Dark Empire. Why do I say that?

1. There is no Dark Side.

That's what Vegere said. But did she mean that evil did not exist? Did she mean that one could participate in immoral acts? Or even the views epoused by the Sith, by the Shadow Academy and its founder, that the means justify the ways? Would Luke actions in The New Rebellion had repulsed her? Clearly not, as she destroyed Alpha Red work and prevented a genocidal attack on the Yuzhan Vong.

If so, what did she mean? In her discussions with Luke, she clearly stated that what she was against, was the view that certain actions, precursors and causes were evil. Agression, anger, emotions, using Force Lightning, this in her book was not considered evil. This is similar to what Luke epoused in the Courtship of Princess Leia, where he taught Isolder and the witches, that it is not the use of certain Force powers or "rituals" that caused them to become a Nightsister, it was the intent. Vegere goes one step further, and said that the intent by itself, is not evil. Instead, it was the loss of reasoning, the loss of serenity that led to the path of the dark side.

Doesn't this ring an echo?
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?

YODA: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

2. Fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to suffering.

Vegere posed a question to Luke. Why did he feel anger towards Vegere, for having tortured Jacen? Why, if this emotion was flawed, had not genetic selection removed it? Surely it was of some use.

We have seen in the movies, that it was emotion, anger that seemed to have provided the turning point in a duel. Obi-wan defeated Darth Maul when he was enraged, Luke skywalker defeated Vader when he was enraged. Could this mean that Vegere was right? That the use of anger, would not turn one to the dark side?

Maybe. But look at the situation closely.In TPM, Obiwan was defeated in his initial rush, and had time to deliberate and recenter his emotions.

In ROTJ, Luke had the oppurtinity to kill Vader. Palpatine gloated and urged him to kill and take his father place at Palpatine side. Luke refused, and then turned around to state, I am a Jedi, like my father before me. What qualified him to make that statement? Obiwan in the novelisation had hinted that Vader turned to the Dark side, because he could not control his agression. Luke ability to control his, was that why he considered himself a Jedi?

3. The neccessity of the Dark Side.
Vegere told Jacen, There was no Dark Side. She elaborated, by explaining that the Dark and the Light Side were the same.

Yet, is this statement revolutionary, or does it merely complement what we have learned of the living force?

The Force in the OT, whether it is the Living Force or the Unifying Force has been compared to Taoism Yin and Yang, as well as Zen Buddhism. Interestingly, both religions acknowledge the importance of their opposites. In Zen, creation is unimportant, and even dangerous, without its counterpart destruction. Yin and Yang not only represent night and day, female and male, evil and good. They represent a neccesary component of nature and the Eight Diagrams is drawn, so as to represent the balance. If any is out of whack, problems will result. Similarly, Lao Tzu, the philosophy behind Tao(which was subsumed with certain aspects of the relgion Taoisms) decleares that something is something, only when its opposite nothing is compared.

Could it be that the aspects revealed merely indicate that the Force knowledge of the New Jedi Order is of an extremely shallow depth, as compared as to the Old Jedi Order? Clearly, we know that the Old Jedi Order were interested in the balance of life. The Living Force, does not focus on the dualistic nature of the Force, but rather on the human aspects of the Force. Yoda, a believer of the Unifying Force, does not state that it is the Light Side of the Force that life creates, binds the galaxy together. Neither does he state that the Dark Side of the Force is what is responible for destruction. Note, while Obiwan states that Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force, he also makes clear that it was Vader choice, and his actions, his inability to resist temptation that made him evil.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-10-21 07:54pm

I think that there is no Dark Side persay, It's just a way of classifing your actions (a way that makes it easier for you to wrap your brain around it).

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-10-22 03:52am

I go by the OT. There is a light side and a dark side. Yoda, Palpatine, Vader makes this clear enough. I don't see anything changing this in the NT.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-10-22 07:26am

YT300000 wrote:I think that there is no Dark Side persay, It's just a way of classifing your actions (a way that makes it easier for you to wrap your brain around it).

Yup, I think that vibes with what Yoda said also, I think the Jedi purposely said that because it was easier that way to avoid potential darkside slippings with their students and only the Jedi Council members knew the reality of the situation, though Kyle seems to take another path as he said in Jedi Academy that no power is inherently good or evil, and that it was the way you used them that matters.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-10-22 12:32pm

Yin and Yang not only represent night and day, female and male, evil and good.

Yin and Yang have absolutely nothing to do with god and evil under any Chinese system, ever, period.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-10-23 08:27am

PainRack wrote:Could it be that the aspects revealed merely indicate that the Force knowledge of the New Jedi Order is of an extremely shallow depth, as compared as to the Old Jedi Order? Clearly, we know that the Old Jedi Order were interested in the balance of life. The Living Force, does not focus on the dualistic nature of the Force, but rather on the human aspects of the Force. Yoda, a believer of the Unifying Force, does not state that it is the Light Side of the Force that life creates, binds the galaxy together. Neither does he state that the Dark Side of the Force is what is responible for destruction. Note, while Obiwan states that Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force, he also makes clear that it was Vader choice, and his actions, his inability to resist temptation that made him evil.

There certainly is something wrong with Vergere - she believes that "intent cannot be evil", and that sounds like an immoral attitude to me.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-10-23 01:19pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:
Yin and Yang not only represent night and day, female and male, evil and good.
Yin and Yang have absolutely nothing to do with god and evil under any Chinese system, ever, period.

Yin is considered the dark and cool side of mankind, manifesting itself under the aura of ghosts, spirits and demons, whereas Yang, which represents vitality is usually represented as life.

This was the context under which the statement was made, where good= life while evil=death.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2003-10-24 02:03pm

There is no Dark Side of The Force, but in the Force user.

Does the Force have a Will? Maybe, maybe not.

Can the Force do anything all by itself, without a Force User channeling and directing a Force Manifestation?

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-10-24 03:57pm

Enola Straight wrote: Can the Force do anything all by itself, without a Force User channeling and directing a Force Manifestation?

Impregnate Shmi Skywalker apparently

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-10-25 01:00pm

Enola Straight wrote:There is no Dark Side of The Force, but in the Force user.

Does the Force have a Will? Maybe, maybe not.

Can the Force do anything all by itself, without a Force User channeling and directing a Force Manifestation?

Perhaps not, but the Force does appear to have a will, a guiding force perhaps.

After all, the prophecies "Son of Suns" and "The one who will balance the Force", presumably both from the Journal of Whillis are accurate. For all we know, the Bendu monks were the ones who orginated the prophecies.

We do know that according to the ICS Eps 2, the Bendu monks believed in numerology and the number 8 spokes represented balance and harmony.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-10-25 05:52pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
Enola Straight wrote: Can the Force do anything all by itself, without a Force User channeling and directing a Force Manifestation?
Impregnate Shmi Skywalker apparently

lmao quite right... but maybe it all happened in a cold night, and shmi had drunk too much when she entered the local brothel....

anyways, i agree, there is neither a light nor a dark side, thats just a metaffa for its use... u can use it for good or evil, that's what makes it light or dark

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-10-26 03:03am

Lex wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Enola Straight wrote: Can the Force do anything all by itself, without a Force User channeling and directing a Force Manifestation?
Impregnate Shmi Skywalker apparently
lmao quite right... but maybe it all happened in a cold night, and shmi had drunk too much when she entered the local brothel....

It could also be that a bunch of Kaminoans abducted her and.... oh, wait... this isn't Art Bell's Star Wars...

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-10-26 04:35am

Lex wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Enola Straight wrote: Can the Force do anything all by itself, without a Force User channeling and directing a Force Manifestation?
Impregnate Shmi Skywalker apparently
lmao quite right... but maybe it all happened in a cold night, and shmi had drunk too much when she entered the local brothel....

*Waves hand* You did not just have sex with me.

"I did not just have sex with you."

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-10-26 12:08pm

PainRack wrote:Could it be that the aspects revealed merely indicate that the Force knowledge of the New Jedi Order is of an extremely shallow depth, as compared as to the Old Jedi Order? Clearly, we know that the Old Jedi Order were interested in the balance of life. The Living Force, does not focus on the dualistic nature of the Force, but rather on the human aspects of the Force. Yoda, a believer of the Unifying Force, does not state that it is the Light Side of the Force that life creates, binds the galaxy together.

Part of the problem with the old jedi order was that they were too self centred and alienated the populace--instead of being pre-occupied with the Living Force, they centred on the Unifying Force. Qui Gon was a believer of the Living Force--"keep your concentration here and now where it belongs--focus on the living force", and yet he was considered an outsider by the rest of the jedi. While Yoda was too busy looking to the future, he negelected the human element. I think what GL is trying to show us with the PT is part of the problem with the Jedi Order--how attachment and emotion is basically forbidden and they live rather cold and sterile lives. They are totally out of touch with the Living Force, save for the "rebels"--Qui Gon, Anakin and Luke. Look at the way the order functions--their headquarters is a jungle of concrete, centred amongst a totally artificial planet--Coruscant. It is sterile and completely inorganic. After the Jedi Genocide i think Yoda realizes the error of his ways--he situates himself on Dagobah, a planet teeming with life, surrounding himself with organicness and other creatures. It is the Living Force personified. His methodology changes to relfects this: "you must feel the force around you--between me, the tree, the rock. everywhere. Even between the land and the ship". Yoda has the epiphany--the Living Force was key all along. It is ultimately Luke's focusing on the Living Force, his love for his father, that brings the force back into balance as he saves Anakin and restores the balance of the universe.

I think its clear that GL was trying to show us that one of the main flaws with the old jedi order was that they were out of touch with other fellow beings. The Unifying Force is a much colder, rather scientific, angle to view the force, while the Living Force is a much warmer and more spiritual angle to view the force. The Living Force concentrates on beings and relationships and things of that nature.

I dont read the EU so i cant comment on any NJO stuff, but like you said the Force is based on the Tao--the ying and the yang. Ultimately the Unifying and Living are two sides of the same coin, and in order to know the whole coin, you must know both sides. That equation seems to make sense--its pretty obvious, to correctly utilize the force you must balance knowledge of both aspects of it. Now where whole Light and Dark sides figure into this reasoning, i dont know--Its possible that Luke was correct when in Dark Empire he wanted to explore the dark side to "know his enemy" so to speak. In the AOTC novel it says that Yoda will "probe the darkside" for clues--so it is possible to tap into it and understand it without being consumed.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-10-27 08:56am

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Lex wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote: Impregnate Shmi Skywalker apparently
lmao quite right... but maybe it all happened in a cold night, and shmi had drunk too much when she entered the local brothel....
*Waves hand* You did not just have sex with me.

"I did not just have sex with you."

lmao i guess anything can happen, even a Hutt could rape her
*womits cause of this imagination*

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-10-27 10:22am

zombie84 wrote: Part of the problem with the old jedi order was that they were too self centred and alienated the populace--instead of being pre-occupied with the Living Force, they centred on the Unifying Force. Qui Gon was a believer of the Living Force--"keep your concentration here and now where it belongs--focus on the living force", and yet he was considered an outsider by the rest of the jedi. While Yoda was too busy looking to the future, he negelected the human element. I think what GL is trying to show us with the PT is part of the problem with the Jedi Order--how attachment and emotion is basically forbidden and they live rather cold and sterile lives. They are totally out of touch with the Living Force, save for the "rebels"--Qui Gon, Anakin and Luke. Look at the way the order functions--their headquarters is a jungle of concrete, centred amongst a totally artificial planet--Coruscant. It is sterile and completely inorganic. After the Jedi Genocide i think Yoda realizes the error of his ways--he situates himself on Dagobah, a planet teeming with life, surrounding himself with organicness and other creatures. It is the Living Force personified. His methodology changes to relfects this: "you must feel the force around you--between me, the tree, the rock. everywhere. Even between the land and the ship". Yoda has the epiphany--the Living Force was key all along. It is ultimately Luke's focusing on the Living Force, his love for his father, that brings the force back into balance as he saves Anakin and restores the balance of the universe.

I really don't think that the way the Jedi Order operated, had anything to do with Force philosophy rather than human philosophy. In other words, Jedi had come to represent arrogrant SOB who are right just because they say they are so.

I think its clear that GL was trying to show us that one of the main flaws with the old jedi order was that they were out of touch with other fellow beings. The Unifying Force is a much colder, rather scientific, angle to view the force, while the Living Force is a much warmer and more spiritual angle to view the force. The Living Force concentrates on beings and relationships and things of that nature.

No. Not really. The Living Force does not place as much emphasis on relationships and the balance of nature as the Unifying Force. Recall if you will, that the Living Force is essentially the theory that the Force is biological in nature, an energy field created by all living things, whereas the Unifying Force is essentially the theory that the Force is the energy field that binds the galaxy together and is a manifestation of, for a lack of a better word, divine will.

I dont read the EU so i cant comment on any NJO stuff, but like you said the Force is based on the Tao--the ying and the yang. Ultimately the Unifying and Living are two sides of the same coin, and in order to know the whole coin, you must know both sides. That equation seems to make sense--its pretty obvious, to correctly utilize the force you must balance knowledge of both aspects of it. Now where whole Light and Dark sides figure into this reasoning, i dont know--Its possible that Luke was correct when in Dark Empire he wanted to explore the dark side to "know his enemy" so to speak. In the AOTC novel it says that Yoda will "probe the darkside" for clues--so it is possible to tap into it and understand it without being consumed.

That's where I sincerely disagree with you. Yes, unifying and Living are two sides of the same coin, but they are not the Light and Dark Side. To put it simply, we don't even know sufficient differences between the two philosophies to even know whether the oft repeated view that the Living Force does not draw as clear a division between Light and Dark as the Unifying Force is true or not.

What we do know however, is that everything we learn about the Force, does not place a difference between creation and destruction. Good and Evil are neccesary, however, that doesn't make evil as palpatable as good. In other words, the EU philosophy(something I'm told that follows the Unifying Force.......), that the world is split between Dark and Light, that the Light is essential whereas the Dark is not neccesary, should be removed, that is wrong IMO and not part of the orginal Jedi philosophy as taught in the OT.

In other words, when Vegere is saying there is no Dark Side, she isn't saying there is no evil, or the Force isn't evil. She's saying that the Force is both Good and Evil, and that no distinctions exist, because creation and destruction are both vital and the same.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2003-10-28 04:49pm

Lex wrote:a Hutt could rape her

I wouldn't mind seeing that....

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-10-30 10:49am

Lex wrote: lmao i guess anything can happen, even a Hutt could rape her
*womits cause of this imagination*

That makes the Kaminoan abduction scenario seem pleasant in comparison.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-10-30 08:13pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Lex wrote: lmao i guess anything can happen, even a Hutt could rape her
*womits cause of this imagination*
That makes the Kaminoan abduction scenario seem pleasant in comparison.

Living with Kaminoans would be awesome. They must sleep standing up, so in the middle of the night play "tip the Kaminoan."

Not like they have the muscles to get back up.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-10-31 10:55am

YT300000 wrote: Not like [Kaminoans] have the muscles to get back up.

Just pray that they never develop telekinetic abilities.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-10-31 09:24pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
YT300000 wrote: Not like [Kaminoans] have the muscles to get back up.
Just pray that they never develop telekinetic abilities.

A Kaminoan Jedi. I'd pay to see that.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-11-01 02:58am

YT300000 wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:
YT300000 wrote: Not like [Kaminoans] have the muscles to get back up.
Just pray that they never develop telekinetic abilities.
A Kaminoan Jedi. I'd pay to see that.

(insert joke about accidental self-decapitations)

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-11-02 03:16am

Yes, its been a while but i have a bit of time so i feel like replying here...

PainRack wrote:
zombie84 wrote: Part of the problem with the old jedi order was that they were too self centred and alienated the populace--instead of being pre-occupied with the Living Force, they centred on the Unifying Force. Qui Gon was a believer of the Living Force--"keep your concentration here and now where it belongs--focus on the living force", and yet he was considered an outsider by the rest of the jedi. While Yoda was too busy looking to the future, he negelected the human element. I think what GL is trying to show us with the PT is part of the problem with the Jedi Order--how attachment and emotion is basically forbidden and they live rather cold and sterile lives. They are totally out of touch with the Living Force, save for the "rebels"--Qui Gon, Anakin and Luke. Look at the way the order functions--their headquarters is a jungle of concrete, centred amongst a totally artificial planet--Coruscant. It is sterile and completely inorganic. After the Jedi Genocide i think Yoda realizes the error of his ways--he situates himself on Dagobah, a planet teeming with life, surrounding himself with organicness and other creatures. It is the Living Force personified. His methodology changes to relfects this: "you must feel the force around you--between me, the tree, the rock. everywhere. Even between the land and the ship". Yoda has the epiphany--the Living Force was key all along. It is ultimately Luke's focusing on the Living Force, his love for his father, that brings the force back into balance as he saves Anakin and restores the balance of the universe.
I really don't think that the way the Jedi Order operated, had anything to do with Force philosophy rather than human philosophy. In other words, Jedi had come to represent arrogrant SOB who are right just because they say they are so.

Their philosophy behind the force is an example of their arrogance--they've lost touch with the Force and now operate by virtue of authority alone.

I think its clear that GL was trying to show us that one of the main flaws with the old jedi order was that they were out of touch with other fellow beings. The Unifying Force is a much colder, rather scientific, angle to view the force, while the Living Force is a much warmer and more spiritual angle to view the force. The Living Force concentrates on beings and relationships and things of that nature.
No. Not really. The Living Force does not place as much emphasis on relationships and the balance of nature as the Unifying Force. Recall if you will, that the Living Force is essentially the theory that the Force is biological in nature, an energy field created by all living things, whereas the Unifying Force is essentially the theory that the Force is the energy field that binds the galaxy together and is a manifestation of, for a lack of a better word, divine will.

The Living Force is all about life, about living beings, whereas the Unifying Force is more about destiny and the universe, where those living beings fit into everything. The Living Force is the more spiritual, more human aspect of it, while the Unifying Force remains the more mechanical aspect. The Jedi Order's neglect of the Living Force--and the living, human element--is ultimately what leads them to their downfall (their arrogance).

I dont read the EU so i cant comment on any NJO stuff, but like you said the Force is based on the Tao--the ying and the yang. Ultimately the Unifying and Living are two sides of the same coin, and in order to know the whole coin, you must know both sides. That equation seems to make sense--its pretty obvious, to correctly utilize the force you must balance knowledge of both aspects of it. Now where whole Light and Dark sides figure into this reasoning, i dont know--Its possible that Luke was correct when in Dark Empire he wanted to explore the dark side to "know his enemy" so to speak. In the AOTC novel it says that Yoda will "probe the darkside" for clues--so it is possible to tap into it and understand it without being consumed.
That's where I sincerely disagree with you. Yes, unifying and Living are two sides of the same coin, but they are not the Light and Dark Side. To put it simply, we don't even know sufficient differences between the two philosophies to even know whether the oft repeated view that the Living Force does not draw as clear a division between Light and Dark as the Unifying Force is true or not.

I was merely making an example of how they compliment, not contradict, each other. To know the whole coin, its is necessary to know both sides--both elements of the Force, the Living and Unifying. Both compliment and complete each other. Light and Dark sides of the Force are seperate from this.

What we do know however, is that everything we learn about the Force, does not place a difference between creation and destruction. Good and Evil are neccesary, however, that doesn't make evil as palpatable as good. In other words, the EU philosophy(something I'm told that follows the Unifying Force.......), that the world is split between Dark and Light, that the Light is essential whereas the Dark is not neccesary, should be removed, that is wrong IMO and not part of the orginal Jedi philosophy as taught in the OT.

Well, from what the OT teaches us it seems as if the Dark Side is akin to a virus--the Light Side is the natural state of the Force and the Dark Side corrupts it and must be resisted and defeated. However, some would say that the PT seems to tell us things a little differently with the concept of "balance". However, i believe that the "balance" of the force does not contradict the OT message. When the issue of balance was first mentioned, i--and i'm sure most viewers--immediatly thought that this meant that the Light and the Dark must be in harmony with each other, that equal portions must exist in the universe to balance things out, almost like neutralization. This follows the philosophy that "light cannot exist without darkness", and i guess that makes sense. BUT, this contradicts the OT-- which chronologically comes later, which would indicate that the OT philosophy is the revised and most accurate understanding of the Force. Okay, here is my reasoning behind all this:

The OT is correct. The natural state of the Force is the "Light" side, the good side, and the Dark side is a corruption and perversion of the Force and should be eliminated. The "balance" of the Force does not refer to equalizing the Light and Dark. Since the Light side is the natural state of the force, any Darkness is causing an imbalance. When the Dark Side is present, the Force becomes corrupted and imbalanced.

In TPM we hear of the prophecy of the chosen one who will "bring balance" to the Force. But what does this mean? Not even the jedi know exactly, but they figure that balance can only be a good thing (which is correct). At that very moment, Darth Sidious is rising in power and the Sith are returning for the first time in thousands of years. The Dark Side is making a comeback. The Force is growing out of balance.
Anakin eventually fullfills his prophecy by killing Darth Sidious and ending the reign of the Sith permenently--the Dark Side is defeated. The Light Side is dominant. The Force is balanced.

In other words, when Vegere is saying there is no Dark Side, she isn't saying there is no evil, or the Force isn't evil. She's saying that the Force is both Good and Evil, and that no distinctions exist, because creation and destruction are both vital and the same.

I will agree with the notion that destruction is as necessary as creation but I'm not sure where the concepts of the Force would address this. As i said, the natural state of the Force is the "Light", that the darkside--and destruction by association i guess--is an unwanted corruption and imbalance. Perhaps it is incorrect to link destruction solely with Evil--that the Darkside is not needed in order for destruction to exist. I dunno, i havent really thought about all of this and its late, so i'll leave you to decide. I just wanted to vent my thoughts on the issue.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-11-04 07:52am

zombie84 wrote:Yes, its been a while but i have a bit of time so i feel like replying here...

Their philosophy behind the force is an example of their arrogance--they've lost touch with the Force and now operate by virtue of authority alone.

I think this is a sidetrack of the topic although I will say I agree with you. The fall of Anakin Skywalker, attributed by Obiwan Kenobi to his pride, pride and belief that he could "instruct Vader as well as Yoda instructed me", mirrored the fall of the Jedi Order.

In other words, many SW philosophical anaylsis of the movies, all indicate that it was pride, hubris as Robert Brown states, that brought the fall of the Jedi Order.

The Living Force is all about life, about living beings, whereas the Unifying Force is more about destiny and the universe, where those living beings fit into everything. The Living Force is the more spiritual, more human aspect of it, while the Unifying Force remains the more mechanical aspect. The Jedi Order's neglect of the Living Force--and the living, human element--is ultimately what leads them to their downfall (their arrogance).

I question whether our knowledge of the different philosophies is enough to deduce that this is the case.

Remember, it was Qui Gon, a believer of the Living Force who brought forth Anakin, whoose destiny was to bring balance to the Force. Furthermore, Yoda, supposedly a believer in the Unifying Force, attached more importance to Luke learning about the flow of the Force rather than learning about the use of the Force. In TPM, he exhibits knowledge on the human element, through the "Fear------suffering" speech.

Again, to deduce that the Jedi pride and hubris, arrogrance, which led to the fall of the Order equals to the philosophy of the Jedi is misleading. Of course, one can argue that the hubris was what obscured their connection to the Force...........

Well, from what the OT teaches us it seems as if the Dark Side is akin to a virus--the Light Side is the natural state of the Force and the Dark Side corrupts it and must be resisted and defeated. However, some would say that the PT seems to tell us things a little differently with the concept of "balance". However, i believe that the "balance" of the force does not contradict the OT message. When the issue of balance was first mentioned, i--and i'm sure most viewers--immediatly thought that this meant that the Light and the Dark must be in harmony with each other, that equal portions must exist in the universe to balance things out, almost like neutralization. This follows the philosophy that "light cannot exist without darkness", and i guess that makes sense. BUT, this contradicts the OT-- which chronologically comes later, which would indicate that the OT philosophy is the revised and most accurate understanding of the Force. Okay, here is my reasoning behind all this:

The OT is correct. The natural state of the Force is the "Light" side, the good side, and the Dark side is a corruption and perversion of the Force and should be eliminated. The "balance" of the Force does not refer to equalizing the Light and Dark. Since the Light side is the natural state of the force, any Darkness is causing an imbalance. When the Dark Side is present, the Force becomes corrupted and imbalanced.

In TPM we hear of the prophecy of the chosen one who will "bring balance" to the Force. But what does this mean? Not even the jedi know exactly, but they figure that balance can only be a good thing (which is correct). At that very moment, Darth Sidious is rising in power and the Sith are returning for the first time in thousands of years. The Dark Side is making a comeback. The Force is growing out of balance.
Anakin eventually fullfills his prophecy by killing Darth Sidious and ending the reign of the Sith permenently--the Dark Side is defeated. The Light Side is dominant. The Force is balanced.

I will say that your reading, was influenced by the post Dark Empire touch of Luke teachings.

1. The OT never decided that the Dark Side was a virus, or that the natural state of the Force was light. While both Yoda and Obi-wan constantly warns Luke about the dangers of the Dark Side, look at the speech more closely. It harbours on the promise of "Once you start down the path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

Whereas Yoda once stated that the cave is deep in the Dark Side. Why is it so? There is no reason for it. Also, note the words Luke used to describe it.
"I feel cold, death".
Yet, Yoda himself state that death comes to all beings and is the natural way of things. Without going into the debate over "luminous beings are we", it will suggest that death, the Dark side, is natural.

Indeed, even if we argue that Obiwan and Yoda did believe in this, the nature of events showed us differently. Luke Skywalker did not destroy evil. when he had to confront Darth Vader, he did not choose to kill him. He chose to redeem Anakin. He did not destroy him, or evil.

2. For the balance, we learn that it is the Jedi themselves who are losing control over their Force powers. No longer can they peer into the future, cause it is being obscured by the Dark Side. If Anakin was to restore the balance by destroying evil, why did he become evil?

Furthermore, the defeat of the Emperor,was not the sole premise of The One who Shall bring Balance, to the Force. It was also the prophecy of Sons of Suns, the twin suns of Tatooine, with the twins Luke and Leia, and the two male Skywalker, sons of the suns of Tatooine. It was redemption, the bringing back from the Dark Side, Anakin skywalker. Darth Vader was defeated, and the Emperor and the Dark Side, when Anakin was redeemed by Luke.

Furthermore, the Balance was restored, if we consider that the Jedi symbol on the Jedi Starfighter, a symbol imbued in numerology of the Bendu monks to symbolise the balance of the galaxy was twisted by the Emperor and that balance was restored with his death. This will suggest that the balance, had nothing to do with Light annihlating Dark.

3. Is the Light side dominant? Perhaps, the remergence of the Jedi in Luke does suggest that. Yet, is this a result of the Sons of Suns, the one who shall destroy evil or The One?

I will agree with the notion that destruction is as necessary as creation but I'm not sure where the concepts of the Force would address this. As i said, the natural state of the Force is the "Light", that the darkside--and destruction by association i guess--is an unwanted corruption and imbalance. Perhaps it is incorrect to link destruction solely with Evil--that the Darkside is not needed in order for destruction to exist. I dunno, i havent really thought about all of this and its late, so i'll leave you to decide. I just wanted to vent my thoughts on the issue.

Here's where I go off SW and into RL. It has been mentioned that Zen and Taoism, appears to have heavily influenced the basis of the Force. If we are to accept that as true, and it has seen many parrallels so far, then, one of its basic premise is that destruction is equivalent to creation and one cannot exist without the other.

Even if we are to disregard such attitudes, the attitudes of Shakespeare medicine, with its balance of the humours, Gaia, all suggest the need to have balance between opposites that are essentially neutral, both beneficial and destructive.

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Duality of the Force

Duality of the Force

Re: Duality of the Force

Re: Duality of the Force

Re: Duality of the Force

Re: Duality of the Force

Re: Duality of the Force