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How big of a difference in the way of life for the average civilian existed between the two governments?

It seems that local governments had autonomy and sovereign rights in the Republic and it was not so in the Empire, but I'm not entirely sure if the governments made any difference at the local level in terms of the justice system, laws, and economics.

Is it accurate to compare the regime change in the star wars galaxy to Rome transforming from a republic into an empire, or are star wars novels accurate when they portray the Empire as an evil fascist, totalitarian regime that oppressed almost every individual?

Given how much Palpatine liked control, I think it fair to assume the Empire was run under a police state. Judging by the movies the Emperor and the Empire wasn't particularly well-liked by people (Luke states that he hates it in ANH; the Coruscant scene at the end of ROTJ SE showed people celebrating the Emperor's death by toppling his statue; the people on Bespin were evacuating in an almost blind panic when Lando announced an Imperial garrison would be stationed there).

However, how much of the empire was under a police state isn't known. I would suggest core worlds like Coruscant were heavily regulated, but Rim or Outer Rim territories like Tatooine and Bespin were left alone.

The scene at the end of ROTJ was just propaganda. Like the Baghdad statue toppling, it was quite closely cropped- if the camera had just been further out, you would see the other billions of Coruscant citizens being decidedly uninterested.

This is not to be taken as an endorsement of the Baghdad statute toppling BS fest. It *was* blatant staged propaganda and it was a small crowd of a few dozen

Such a cynical comment! I'm impressed...

To be honest I never cared much for the SE ending; it seemed to suggest news would spread so fast and would be well-received everywhere. A couple hours after the DS blew up, taking Palpy - and everyone's happy as can be. How the hell did people find out? Wouldn't the Empire's Information Minister say something like "No no Palpatine was here a second ago - he's not dead. I talked to him just now."

Stofsk wrote:Given how much Palpatine liked control, I think it fair to assume the Empire was run under a police state. Judging by the movies the Emperor and the Empire wasn't particularly well-liked by people (Luke states that he hates it in ANH; the Coruscant scene at the end of ROTJ SE showed people celebrating the Emperor's death by toppling his statue; the people on Bespin were evacuating in an almost blind panic when Lando announced an Imperial garrison would be stationed there).

Keep in mind, that Bespin was a supplier for smugglers, pirates and other shadowy figures, who might have more to fear, than the average citicen.

Vympel wrote:The scene at the end of ROTJ was just propaganda. Like the Baghdad statue toppling, it was quite closely cropped- if the camera had just been further out, you would see the other billions of Coruscant citizens being decidedly uninterested.

This is not to be taken as an endorsement of the Baghdad statute toppling BS fest. It *was* blatant staged propaganda and it was a small crowd of a few dozen

I compared it much more to the toppling of Lenin's statue in Red Square which was not propoganda but instead was thousands of pissed off people celebrating new found freedom.

Hmm.. I guess this can be looked at another way as well. Palpatine's New Order when he wasn't going mad and killing off populations or one of his subordinates were torching peaceful protestors.. the New Order strictly enforced the peace between systems. Once that pressure was gone.. we see what we saw in the VOTF duology. If there's no common goal or cause, everyone has a reason to hate each other.

MrAnderson wrote:

Vympel wrote:The scene at the end of ROTJ was just propaganda. Like the Baghdad statue toppling, it was quite closely cropped- if the camera had just been further out, you would see the other billions of Coruscant citizens being decidedly uninterested.

This is not to be taken as an endorsement of the Baghdad statute toppling BS fest. It *was* blatant staged propaganda and it was a small crowd of a few dozen

I compared it much more to the toppling of Lenin's statue in Red Square which was not propoganda but instead was thousands of pissed off people celebrating new found freedom.

Hadn't Coruscant police restored order fairly quick after that? (I did read that)
Anyway, that WAS propaganda. It's more likely that this were the unhappy 10%, while the rest of the population had arraged itself with the Empire. I say so, because it is mentioned several times, that in the Core, Inner. and most of the Mid-rim the Rebels were simply seen as criminals and dangerous people with absurde ideas.

I'd think most of the populaion would have been neutral with some Imperial loyality. Much like America is today. They go thru the motions without much thought. People don't seem to care as long as their life and lievlyhood isn't threatened. much the way people vote Democrt or Republican. They don't why but they do. eVen if ther was blind optism it mght have been subsided rather quickly. On the day the Old Republic fell:
"Hey, Bob Palpatine took power."
"Really?"
"Yeah."
"Thanks Jim, doesn't matter as long as I got my job and he keeps things in order."

The Republic wasn’t all that well loved. For all its idealistic presumptions, demilitarized administration eventually proved equally as susceptible to danger as an unregulated or authoritarian system.

Government of the type to which we were introduced in Episode I was an unrealistic pipedream; it failed to properly engage the nature of the citizens over which it ruled. Indeed, it’s hard to explain why it lasted as long as it did. From a realist’s vantage point, Mace Windu’s significant shock upon learning that the residents of Haruun-Kal preferred association with the militant Confederacy of Independent Systems – if only to secure the freedom such collaboration offered for the resumption of aggressive internecine struggles between Balawi and Korunai – is rather a point of ridicule, and indicative of naiveté on the part of the Jedi Order. Also witness the ease with which Count Dooku was able to manipulate the gargantuan “engines of galactic finance,” as StarWars.com calls them; the Republic’s impotence was such that it had begun to generate encouragement for opportunists, whose resignation to violence – and contempt aplenty for a dying system – is strongly evident. One might even surmise that many of the Republic’s former citizens appreciated the Separatists – after all, even the largest mega-corporations in today’s world can’t stand alone; sympathetic public opinion does give them succor, no matter how many times critics insist they act against public interests.

The Empire as seen in the Original Trilogy is difficult to explain. We have seeming evidence of widespread malcontent on Coruscant at the end of the movie, but are then forced to ask: “Why not earlier?” After all, the Imperial Navy had to have garrisoned its capital even during the Battle of Endor; it might have been a failing on the part of local leadership that spread outward rather than a truly general wave of dissatisfaction.

We do know that the Rebellion was stigmatized by billions of elite (and probably, as in the real world, exponentially more numerous “average joes,” who take their cues from above). Considering the size of the Imperial bureaucracy (plus its dependencies, hangers-on, beneficiaries, and well-wishers) as well as the power of their propaganda machine, this number goes even higher.

I think a good thing to consider is, did the Empire save the Republic? What if he didn't do as he planned? Someone like Dooku could have very easily come along and instigated the war, with the Republic having its pants down it would be ravaged. Also from what I remember of the EU people on Core Worlds who did their job and got paid seemed to live fine happy lives under the Empire.

Vympel wrote:The scene at the end of ROTJ was just propaganda. Like the Baghdad statue toppling, it was quite closely cropped- if the camera had just been further out, you would see the other billions of Coruscant citizens being decidedly uninterested.

Actually the protests numbered in the tens of thousands...what was cut out was the fact that within the hour, Madame Director of Imperial Intelligence, Ysanne Isard, ordered Stormtroopers and Coruscant Guards with E-WEBs and E-21s into the plaza, and butchered the demonstrators.

Axis Kast wrote:The Republic wasn’t all that well loved. For all its idealistic presumptions, demilitarized administration eventually proved equally as susceptible to danger as an unregulated or authoritarian system.

Government of the type to which we were introduced in Episode I was an unrealistic pipedream; it failed to properly engage the nature of the citizens over which it ruled. Indeed, it’s hard to explain why it lasted as long as it did.

Kast I must disagree. As the poster Publius brought to my attention, the Galactic Republic is administrationally more centralized than the Galactic Empire.

Remember that Queen Amidala's sole appeal is the the Galactic Senate. Not the Sectorial government, not a regional government, but the Senate of the whole galaxy. Minor trade disputes and blockade/occupations of single Mid Rim Sector capitals in a galaxy of over a thousand Sector capitals and dozens of millions of members, and the only reprieve lay with the pan-galactic government?

While it is true that military and patrol duties were restricted to private entities (corporations such as the Trade Federation, the Techno Union, the Corporate Alliance, the International Banking Clan, and the Mining Guild) and local governments (Corellia and CorSec, Kuat and her Sectorial starfleet, Prince Xizor of Falleen's private navy, Alderaan's armed forces, the Coruscant Military Academy's counterpart military, Carida and her armed forces, etc.), most other government duties are centralized. After the Senate, Padme had only the pan-galactic courts to appeal to.

The Galactic Empire actually simplified this by establishing Sector administrations (and several thereof under larger administrations known as "Oversectors" under Grand Moffs) under the feudal-esque Moffs. Local problems and rebellion were tackled by the Moff's own starfleet and armies raised and maintained by his own administration for the permanent subjugation and occupation of his own territories (basic purpose of Sector Forces).

Also remember that the Republic was not always run under the same manner as in its Prequel Movie-era incarnation. That incarnation of Republican government is only a thousand years old and established as a reaction to the last Sith War. Prior to that the government is a mystery, but it appears to have lasted twenty-four thousand years. (One difference noted is the existance of a Senate hall where all member worlds could have delegates summoned, as for the trial of fallen Jedi Knight and foremost Sith Apprentice Ulic Qel-Droma).

Kast I must disagree. As the poster Publius brought to my attention, the Galactic Republic is administrationally more centralized than the Galactic Empire.

Does more pronounced centralization somehow render it less ineffective or lessen the magnitude of its failure?

No matter to whom Naboo brought its plight, nothing was done until the Separatists constituted a much wider and more obvious threat.

In the end, the Republic failed to meet the personal ambitions of the varied populations under its control.

Axis Kast wrote:*snip*

I was refuting my presumption that you were fingering the supposed weak central govenrment and strength of the local powers of the Republic as a source of its downfall.

Centralized or not, the central government was remarkably weak.

Axis Kast wrote:Centralized or not, the central government was remarkably weak.

Quite so. The Galactic Republic presented the singular spectacle of a state whose centralisation is matched only by its impotence. A profoundly weak system, the great surprise of this last incarnation of the Republic is that it managed to exist more or less intact for a millennium.

PUBLIUS

We know that slavery became legal in the empire, where it had been illegal in the Republic. We also know that the Imperial regime had a bias against non-human species. It dissolved the galactic senate, and local governments would be administered by a Moff, similar to the exarchs in the Byzantine empire (I'm such an idiot - I just looked up Moff in my webster dictionary to make sure I was using the word right).

Is this the key difference between the two regimes; the use of Moff's to administer the peace in their respective sectors, instead of government administration being undertaken in Coruscant by the Galactic senate?

That seems to be consistent with the evidence. Since Moff's exerted local control, some of them could have legalized slavery in their respective territories. Since the Emperor appointed the Moffs, and the Core Worlds would have had a large bureacratic class (mostly human) it would have made sense that the majority of Moffs would have been human. The Empire fell apart so quickly because the Moffs did not report to anyone except Palpatine. Within the individual sectors the Moffs would have been at odds with the local fleet commanders, especially with Palpatine and Supreme Commander Vader both dead.

But then was demilitarization a recent institution?

If not, did the sector forces keep the balance of order?

This is the problem; the Republic is logically indefensible considering the manner of its fall.

The local officers answered to the local Moff. The problem comes in with the elite and high-scale roaming fleet commands answering to the High Command on Coruscant with highly skilled and connected officers at their helm (likely Drommel, Zsinj, several Grand Admirals, etc.).

Publius wrote:

Axis Kast wrote:Centralized or not, the central government was remarkably weak.

Quite so. The Galactic Republic presented the singular spectacle of a state whose centralisation is matched only by its impotence. A profoundly weak system, the great surprise of this last incarnation of the Republic is that it managed to exist more or less intact for a millennium.

PUBLIUS

The Chancellor Praetoran Guard, the Jedi Order would have something to do with that.

Bertie Wooster wrote:How big of a difference in the way of life for the average civilian existed between the two governments?

It seems that local governments had autonomy and sovereign rights in the Republic and it was not so in the Empire, but I'm not entirely sure if the governments made any difference at the local level in terms of the justice system, laws, and economics.

Is it accurate to compare the regime change in the star wars galaxy to Rome transforming from a republic into an empire, or are star wars novels accurate when they portray the Empire as an evil fascist, totalitarian regime that oppressed almost every individual?

well:

Empire=fascist
Republic=democracy

The treatment and rights of citizens i would expect is the same as their real life equivalents. Living under the Empire is akin to living under Mussolini or Hitler--efficient forms of government, but any and all rights of citizens may be waved at any moment.

As for the Empire's end, there are two different stories.

In the films, what we see at the end of ROTJ is the end of the Empire. The Death Star explodes, the fleet is defeated, the Emperor and Vader dead, Coruscant has an uprising and the galaxy rejoices. End of the Star Wars saga.

EU fucks things up, as it must, and has a different viewpoint--the uprising seen in ROTJ was only a small, isolated event, and it takes a long time before the Empire is vanquished, what with the millions of loyal servants and outposts throughout the galaxy.

Bertie Wooster wrote:We know that slavery became legal in the empire, where it had been illegal in the Republic. We also know that the Imperial regime had a bias against non-human species. It dissolved the galactic senate, and local governments would be administered by a Moff, similar to the exarchs in the Byzantine empire (I'm such an idiot - I just looked up Moff in my webster dictionary to make sure I was using the word right).

It was not Imperial policy to alter local governments; rather, the Empire simply prefers simply to show the flag and allow local authorities to conduct themselves appropriately. According to the Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition, the privy councillors occasionally modified a planetary government's procedure or ruling body to bring into conformity with the Imperial system, but "less than one planet in 80 has been so modified" (applied to the one million member states, that is a mere 12,500 reformed governments).

Non-member states of the Empire -- i.e., the 50 millions of systems beneath the one million member states -- were governed by Imperial governors, protectors, supervisors, and prefects, but it apparently varies as to the extent to which these local governments were modified to conform with the Imperial system. These local Imperial authorities received direction and orders from the Diplomatic Service and from the appropriate Moff Governors, according to the Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition.

The Empire's Moff Governors enter into the Imperial system at the sectorial level. A Moff Governor was appointed to administer a Sector, exclusive of the full member states which may have happened to fall into that jurisdiction (the Imperial Senate administered the member states, according to the Star Wars Encyclopedia). Consequently, it is more appropriate to compare Moff Governors to Rome's proconsuls and propraetors, especially in that, like promagistrates, Moff Governors are supreme commanders of the military and naval forces within their jurisdictions.

Bertie Wooster wrote:Is this the key difference between the two regimes; the use of Moff's to administer the peace in their respective sectors, instead of government administration being undertaken in Coruscant by the Galactic senate?

Some of the other differences between the Galactic Republic and the Galactic Empire include: The Empire's multiple constitutions (the Imperial Charter and the Constitutions of New Order), the Empire's consolidation of intelligence services (Imperial Intelligence vs. the Republic's four services), the Empire's powerful military-industrial complex, the establishment of a quasi-official socio-political agency (the Commission for the Preservation of the New Order), the regularisation of the galaxy's various legal systems into a uniform codex juris (COMPNOR's greatest contribution to the galaxy), and the elimination to a very large degree of piracy and corporate filibustering (in two different senses). Of course, there is also the addition of a despotic Sovereign to consider.

Bertie Wooster wrote:That seems to be consistent with the evidence. Since Moff's exerted local control, some of them could have legalized slavery in their respective territories. Since the Emperor appointed the Moffs, and the Core Worlds would have had a large bureacratic class (mostly human) it would have made sense that the majority of Moffs would have been human. The Empire fell apart so quickly because the Moffs did not report to anyone except Palpatine. Within the individual sectors the Moffs would have been at odds with the local fleet commanders, especially with Palpatine and Supreme Commander Vader both dead.

Moff Governors only governed non-member states (i.e., the 50 millions of governments, colonies, and protectorates) and were directly responsible to the Galactic Emperor's privy council as well as to the Imperial Senate (Grand Moff Tarkin's comment about Regional Governors taking direct control after the dissolution of the Senate is meaningful only if the Senate made such a state of affairs unworkable otherwise). They were appointed by the privy council, and were consequently heavily involved in court politics. Furthermore, the sectorial military and naval forces would most definitely not be at odds with the Moff Governors, who were the supreme commanders of the sector commands in addition to the sectorial governors.

You appear to have confused the Moff Governors with the Grand Moff Governors, who governed either Oversectors or Regions, both of which consist of multiple Sectors; consequently, after the dissolution of the Senate, Moff Governors were responsible to the privy council and to their respective Grand Moff Governors. It is the Grand Moff Governors who were immediately responsible to the Galactic Emperor (and of course to his duly designated lieutenants).

PUBLIUS

Quite frankly, the EU version makes more sense. A gigantic power structure that embedded and with a military that huge isn't going to just roll over and die. The whole Imperial Starfleet wasn't at Endor, not by a long shot. And the Star Destroyers that were at Endor weren't all destroyed.

But did the end of the Special Edition really depict a universal and enstantaneous downfall of the Empire? The Emperor's death would logically cause a minor uprising in the immediate aftermath, but it wouldn't take very many E-Web salvos for people to figure out that the stormtroopers were still alive, well, and ready to keep them in line. Doesn't really contradict the EU IMHO.

PainRack wrote:The Chancellor Praetoran Guard, the Jedi Order would have something to do with that.

Didn't exist until Palpatine's administration. The only governmental entity that was as far-reaching as the Jedi were the Judicials, and they were rather weak.

For a discussion of life for the Imperial citizenry, see the essay in the "Examinations" section of Nathan F's site. It does not incorporate the follwoing addendum:

In Galaxy of Fear: The Swarm, Captain Thrawn responds to hostile remarks with the following speech:

I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds people live their their lives under Imperial rule without ever seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead.

The Dark Empire Sourcebook quotes the second book of the Dark Side Compendium, The Weakness of Inferiors, saying that it "teaches control, without violence, over the innocent, the ignorant, and 'all inferiors'"; The New Essential Guide to Characters adds that "much later, Palpatine merged political theory with Sith doctrine in The Book of Anger, volume one of a vast dark side compendium", but this should probably be interpreted as an error, meant to refer to volume two, The Weakness of Inferiors.