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Scenario: Palpatine has just been elected Supreme Chancellor. He hears of his apprentice Darth Maul's death and suddenly has an epiphany to use his powers, both political and Force-related, for good instead of evil. He burns his Sith robes, donates his money reserved for the clone army to charity and starts wearing bright and cheery colors. Could Palpatine have ended the corruption in the Senate and saved the Galactic Republic from collapse without abandoning democracy? (Keep in mind that a lot of the corruption and eventual rebellion was controlled by Palpatine himself.)

Scenario 2: Palpatine did save the Republic. Now it's 50 years later and the Yuuzhan Vong are invading. What happens?

An interesting what-if.

Okay, as to Scenario I - possibly - depends of course as to how gone the GR was at that point.

Scenario II: Depends on how Scenario I fares. If it worked, porbably not. Why? Because the Clone army would never have been created and that would only leave the Jedi, who as we all know are not all that against the Vong.

Maybe he thought he was saving it...

JME2 wrote:Scenario II: Depends on how Scenario I fares. If it worked, porbably not. Why? Because the Clone army would never have been created and that would only leave the Jedi, who as we all know are not all that against the Vong.

Actually the Republic would have all the Defense Forces and all of the corporate/private navies to help out. An unmolested and wrecked infrastructure might actually be able to develop a better defense from scratch than the battered infrastructure and starting out with a token/impotent defense the NR had.

We'd also have galactic unity to turn back the evil invaders along with a decent number of Jedi to help out. The Republic may well be able to fight a holding action with existing ships while its industry switches to a war footing.

You don't think 10,000 Jedi in Starfighters, lead by Skywalker family, using a Jedi battle meld, wouldn't completely slaughter the Vong? Imagine 10,000 Seismic Charges going off in the middle of a Vong fleet....

And Imagine the power Palpatine would have had in the Force by that point if he was still alive. One Force Storm, no Vong.

It would actually be WORSE then the Empire vs the Vong, cause of all the resources that would NOT be lost during the Clone Wars and Rebellion

Scenario 1: Certainly not single handedly. Let's face it, the Republic was too far gone for Palpatine to save it without abandoning democracy. At most he'll be able to make reforms that could save it if others carry them ought.


Scenario 2: The Vong get stomped, hard. It was only the fucking stupidty of the New Republic that allowed the Vong to get as far as they did. The Republic had a fair sized navy (though most was sitting idle in the Core) and it was certainly enough to repel the Vong.

Galvatron wrote:Maybe he thought he was saving it...

That's an interesting thought - maybe Lucas will work it into Episode III. Doubtful though...

Generally speaking, it is probably not possible for a state as decrepit as the Galactic Republic to be effectively reformed without autocratic power (cf. the dictatorial reforms of L. Cornelius Sulla and C. Iulius Caesar in the Roman Republic). While it is true that Palpatine was responsible for much of the corruption that beset the Republic, that is actually a symptom of the disease, not the underlying cause. The Republic had an inherently weak system, and a profound lack of responsibility and accountability.

Like the Roman Republic, whatever democratic principles theoretically underlay the Galactic Republic's system are strictly theoretical. Auctoritas -- i.e., influence and clout -- is heavily concentrated in the hands of the oligarchical Core Worlds, while the outlying systems are reduced to virtual fiefdom, despite being nominally full members of the Republic. Indeed, the Republic appears to have been heavily timocratic -- even industrial colossi like the Trade Federation, the Commerce Guild, and the Techno Union have full representation in the Senate.

Ultimately, the groups that would stand to lose the most by the wide-ranging reforms necessary to restore the Galactic Republic would be the same groups that would possess the auctoritas to block any such reforms. It is probably not possible to push through the necessary legislation within the existing quasidemocratic framework of the Republic. Although a Sullan dictatorate might be able to accomplish such reforms, that would violate the conditions set by the original post.

PUBLIUS

Although a Sullan dictatorate might be able to accomplish such reforms, that would violate the conditions set by the original post.

Actually, any such reforms made are likely to go the way of Sulla's reforms: straight down the crapper as soon as they get in the way. Only the fact that Sulla cowed the Senate and muzzled the Tribunes of the Plebs prevented his reforms from being torn down as soon as he stepped down. That it took Marcus Crassus, Pompey the Great and Gauis Julius Ceasar to tear them down is something rather remarkable really considering jackals in the Senate.

As we see in the EU, that's pretty much what happened with Palpatine's reforms (and reforms they were for the most part), the corporations and individual planets effectively reverted to the kind of corruption and decadence that brought about the fall of the Republic. As is usual with counter-revolutionaries of their like, the Rebel Alliance never really considered why the Republic fell so easily.


(PS. It's really interesting to see how closely the Fall of the Old Republic mirrors the fall of the Roman Republic. Though Palpatine is really a combination of Sulla, and the two Ceasars.)

An excellent point regarding the Emperor and the three Romans, Stormbringer -- and regarding the collapse of the Imperial order following the Emperor's death. In fact, it shows that the ravenous oligarchs of the Roman Senate were rather more responsible than the rebel Alliance -- the Roman oligarchs at least had the good sense to retain some of Sulla's more beneficial reforms, like the permanent courts of law, the regularisation of elections, and the regulation of admission to the Senate; the so-called New Republic lost no time in overturning the entire Palpatinist system, baby and bathwater both.

PUBLIUS

JME2 wrote:

Galvatron wrote:Maybe he thought he was saving it...

That's an interesting thought - maybe Lucas will work it into Episode III. Doubtful though...

True. Lucas apparently prefers "black and white" morality. I doubt Palpatine is motivated by anything less cliche than being evil for evil's sake.

I would think that Palpatine is simply power-hungry. Indeed, I imagine that's the corruptive force (ha) of the Dark Side of the Force; its users gain a sense of great power over others, and like an addicted drug user whose body has begun to dull the effects of the drug, they seek more and more of it to retain their power high.

JME2 wrote: Scenario II: Depends on how Scenario I fares. If it worked, porbably not. Why? Because the Clone army would never have been created and that would only leave the Jedi, who as we all know are not all that against the Vong.

Why would Palpatine not create a Republic Army without necessarily turning the whole thing into a militaristic dictatorship? It doesn't even have to be a cloned army, as it's hideously expensive compared to an army of conscripts or volunteers.

Simon H.Johansen wrote: Why would Palpatine not create a Republic Army without necessarily turning the whole thing into a militaristic dictatorship? It doesn't even have to be a cloned army, as it's hideously expensive compared to an army of conscripts or volunteers.

Palpatine wouldn't create an army without a reason for it. His reasons for making the clone army were twofold: to crush the Separatists and to seize power for himself. A non-evil Palpatine wouldn't have either reason, since he created the Separatists himself. He could presumably have staged the civil war and not kept his emergency powers, restoring the Republic, but that is a very ends-justify-the-means method of reform for a supposedly good Palpatine.

So is the consensus that the Old Republic was doomed no matter what Palpatine did? If peaceful reforms wouldn't succeed, Sulla-type authoritarian reforms would be abandoned and Augustus-style turning the whole thing into a fascism failed anyway, there really isn't anything that could be done by anyone to save the Republic.

Eframepilot wrote:

Simon H.Johansen wrote: Why would Palpatine not create a Republic Army without necessarily turning the whole thing into a militaristic dictatorship? It doesn't even have to be a cloned army, as it's hideously expensive compared to an army of conscripts or volunteers.

Palpatine wouldn't create an army without a reason for it. His reasons for making the clone army were twofold: to crush the Separatists and to seize power for himself. A non-evil Palpatine wouldn't have either reason, since he created the Separatists himself.

What if he used his precognitive/clairvoyant abilities to foretell the Yuuzhan Vong invasion? (of course, at that time such a prediction would probably come as very vague to most force-users)

And how would he convince the Senate to accept that he's had a vision? The Senate would already be suspicious of any action he made, he'd be lucky to be in the same building as them after causing so much trouble in the Republic. A peaceful Republic would be wiped out by the Vong, quite easily. The best the Republic had was the Dreadnaught. A peaceful Republic isn't gonna approve a design like a Star Destroyer. And a few thousand Jedi go down once the Vong Shape a few hundred Voxen.

Generally speaking, it is probably not possible for a state as decrepit as the Galactic Republic to be effectively reformed without autocratic power (cf. the dictatorial reforms of L. Cornelius Sulla and C. Iulius Caesar in the Roman Republic).

You are right. ANy legitmate leader would have been assassinated. That is exactly what happened to the Gracchus brothers.


That is what happend in almost all nations of antiquity, especially Athens.

Strate_Egg wrote:

Generally speaking, it is probably not possible for a state as decrepit as the Galactic Republic to be effectively reformed without autocratic power (cf. the dictatorial reforms of L. Cornelius Sulla and C. Iulius Caesar in the Roman Republic).

You are right. ANy legitmate leader would have been assassinated. That is exactly what happened to the Gracchus brothers.


That is what happend in almost all nations of antiquity, especially Athens.

Wow, you missed the point entirely. Thank you for ignoring the main point to drop irrelevant names instead.

The danger is really assination (especially not when you're a demigod) but rather that any reforms would likely be blocked in a democratic institution. The corporations and old guard planets hold too much of a choke hold for Palpatine to restore the Republic to what it was. Publius (and I) are arguing that it would require exactly what happened, the assumption of dictatorial powers. Otherwise no one has sufficient leverage to actually break the deadlock of self interest. And of course there is the likely tossed out by Palpatine's successors, which also happened.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:

Eframepilot wrote:

Simon H.Johansen wrote: Why would Palpatine not create a Republic Army without necessarily turning the whole thing into a militaristic dictatorship? It doesn't even have to be a cloned army, as it's hideously expensive compared to an army of conscripts or volunteers.

Palpatine wouldn't create an army without a reason for it. His reasons for making the clone army were twofold: to crush the Separatists and to seize power for himself. A non-evil Palpatine wouldn't have either reason, since he created the Separatists himself.

What if he used his precognitive/clairvoyant abilities to foretell the Yuuzhan Vong invasion? (of course, at that time such a prediction would probably come as very vague to most force-users)

I've had that on the brain for a while, really. Perhaps he was just a force sensetive young man who slipped through the Jedi's nets and saw this was coming and knew there was no one who would ever believe him. Realizing he's too old for formal training, and that it was too late anyway, he went down the path of the Sith.

Really, he's a hero. He became the most reviled man in history, and sacrificed his sanity to the Dark Side all for the sake of preserving the galaxy he loved so dearly.

PrinceofLowLight wrote:I've had that on the brain for a while, really. Perhaps he was just a force sensetive young man who slipped through the Jedi's nets and saw this was coming and knew there was no one who would ever believe him. Realizing he's too old for formal training, and that it was too late anyway, he went down the path of the Sith.

Really, he's a hero. He became the most reviled man in history, and sacrificed his sanity to the Dark Side all for the sake of preserving the galaxy he loved so dearly.

Highly unlikely. The Galactic Emperor's worldview is not so altruistic. It is much more keeping with his personality and character that he simply chose to impose his conception of order on what he sees as a disordered universe by any means he deems necessary. The idea that he loved the galaxy is rendered fatuous by the fact that he had decided that were he unable to order the galaxy, it deserved to perish with him.

PUBLIUS