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Here we can see were the first two proton torpedos impacted on the Death Star armor plating. I think that such destructive weapons only produce a 2 meter wide burned spot on the armor says much about the quality and duration of the armor....

What do you think?

I think the evidence points to them not going off.

Holy SHIT that's strong armor. Consider that substantial portions of the Death Star (at least) were shaking violently when the torpedoes impacted. This means that the torpedoes DID detonate (or, at least, one of them did), and that the armor was able to withstand the impact EASILY. This is by far the best evidence for ludicrously resilient armor plating on Imperial warships ever posted.

For not going off, it was quiete a firework......

I've got to agree with Ender, they likely didn't go off. They were after all supposed to fly on a pre-programmed flight path and then go off. It's entirely possible that prevented them from going off simply because they impacted the Death Star.

Tribun wrote:For not going off, it was quiete a firework......

No, infact the total absence of a firework is what makes me think they didn't go off. We know the things hit high MT level, but even if those were 100 KT (minimum of a fusion weapon) there should have been a visable white flash.

However, MoO brings up a point, why did it shake afterwards...

the main page of the site does say that proton torps are used primarily for attacking soft targets. so naturally if the armor's rather tough it won't do much damage, with the actual vulnerable point of the death star being. . .well, rather vulnerable.

Ender wrote:

Tribun wrote:For not going off, it was quiete a firework......

No, infact the total absence of a firework is what makes me think they didn't go off. We know the things hit high MT level, but even if those were 100 KT (minimum of a fusion weapon) there should have been a visable white flash.

However, MoO brings up a point, why did it shake afterwards...

Exactly, if it had simply crashed on the surface then there would have been no explosion and no shaking. At least one had ignited.

Tribun wrote:

Ender wrote:

Tribun wrote:For not going off, it was quiete a firework......

No, infact the total absence of a firework is what makes me think they didn't go off. We know the things hit high MT level, but even if those were 100 KT (minimum of a fusion weapon) there should have been a visable white flash.

However, MoO brings up a point, why did it shake afterwards...

Exactly, if it had simply crashed on the surface then there would have been no explosion and no shaking. At least one had ignited.
So a minimum of 100KT only makes a small burning damage to the armor. That's impressive....


AAARRGHHH! Wrong button!

Stormbringer wrote:I've got to agree with Ender, they likely didn't go off. They were after all supposed to fly on a pre-programmed flight path and then go off. It's entirely possible that prevented them from going off simply because they impacted the Death Star.

Even if we assume that just the kinetic energy of the torpedoes themselves was transferred to the DS, as opposed to the warhead's energy, this still represents unbelievable materials strength. Large sections of the Death Star were shaking with the equivalent force of a MAGNITUDE SEVEN earthquake (seeing as how many stormtroopers were thrown into the walls). We know, from the picture, that none of the DS's internal systems were disturbed (how could they be, if the armor so easily stopped the impact?), so we know that a HELL of a lot of energy was transferred to the DS. Even if that was just the KE, it indicates SUBSTANTIAL resistance on the part of the DS's armor plating.

Hmm. Modern nuclear warheads require a separate explosive charge to start the reaction. However, they are very well designed so that they cannot go off accidentally or prematurely (with very good reason). So perhaps the ignition charge went, but the torpedoes' computer systems said that they hadn't reached target yet and prevented fusion? That would make an explosion, but non-nuclear. I'll say that it should be more than a burn mark, though. This just doesn't make any sense.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:I've got to agree with Ender, they likely didn't go off. They were after all supposed to fly on a pre-programmed flight path and then go off. It's entirely possible that prevented them from going off simply because they impacted the Death Star.

Even if we assume that just the kinetic energy of the torpedoes themselves was transferred to the DS, as opposed to the warhead's energy, this still represents unbelievable materials strength. Large sections of the Death Star were shaking with the equivalent force of a MAGNITUDE SEVEN earthquake (seeing as how many stormtroopers were thrown into the walls). We know, from the picture, that none of the DS's internal systems were disturbed (how could they be, if the armor so easily stopped the impact?), so we know that a HELL of a lot of energy was transferred to the DS. Even if that was just the KE, it indicates SUBSTANTIAL resistance on the part of the DS's armor plating.

Well, the problem is this: If the torpedos can shake the DS, then the DS is irrelevent since firing off the SL didn't cause it to rock from the recoil either.

It's a very fucked up scene.

I could imagine different sections of the DS being suspended from others to prevent shaking from transferring from one area to another and having the structural stresses propogate throughout the structure. To continue MoO's earthquake comparison, it'd kinda be like suspending parts of the surface on giant-ass springs to keep kinetic impacts from damaging other areas.

I wouldn't do it if I designed the DS1, but its the only way I can think of to make sense of the scene.

That still doesn't explain why the torpedoes didn't crater the surface, which was the original question, though.

Ender wrote: Well, the problem is this: If the torpedos can shake the DS, then the DS is irrelevent since firing off the SL didn't cause it to rock from the recoil either.

It's a very fucked up scene.

Not really. The Death Star MUST have systems in place to prevent recoil from the superlaser from damaging the ship, but firing the superlaser is a stress that they can plan for EASILY during the engineering and construction of the station. However, it is far less likely that the station was constructed so as to allow for one-time impacts from torpedoes to a particular part of the station. It is much easier to build a station so as to reduce the effects of recoil than it is to protect the station against the effects of external impacts.

As Howedar said, the station should almost certainly have system for localizing the damage done by such impacts, but it's difficult to comprehend the amount of material strength required for so little damage to be done by the torpedoes to the armor, when so much KE was obviously being thrown around.

BTW, this lends further credence to the statement in ICSII that fusion rockets barely score the armored hull of Acclamator transports.

Master of Ossus wrote:Holy SHIT that's strong armor. Consider that substantial portions of the Death Star (at least) were shaking violently when the torpedoes impacted. This means that the torpedoes DID detonate (or, at least, one of them did), and that the armor was able to withstand the impact EASILY. This is by far the best evidence for ludicrously resilient armor plating on Imperial warships ever posted.

If you check the ICS image of it you get a better idea of how little it did maybe a 25-30 cm-diameter crater (I dont remember the exact calculation I did) - Thats equal to blasting a crater nearly 100-200 meters in diameter into the ground. Assuming iron, the crater would be 60 meters in diameter.

Its also equal to vaporizing an iron asteroid several meters in diameter.

This should just serve to illustrate the fact of just how powerful SW armor materials is (And it doesnt even factor in that the proton torpedo yield could be substantially higher than a few kilotons, a grossly conservative estimate based on the EGW&T, known laser cannon yields, and the SWTJ.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:Holy SHIT that's strong armor. Consider that substantial portions of the Death Star (at least) were shaking violently when the torpedoes impacted. This means that the torpedoes DID detonate (or, at least, one of them did), and that the armor was able to withstand the impact EASILY. This is by far the best evidence for ludicrously resilient armor plating on Imperial warships ever posted.

If you check the ICS image of it you get a better idea of how little it did maybe a 25-30 cm-diameter crater (I dont remember the exact calculation I did) - Thats equal to blasting a crater nearly 100-200 meters in diameter into the ground. Assuming iron, the crater would be 60 meters in diameter.

Its also equal to vaporizing an iron asteroid several meters in diameter.

This should just serve to illustrate the fact of just how powerful SW armor materials is (And it doesnt even factor in that the proton torpedo yield could be substantially higher than a few kilotons, a grossly conservative estimate based on the EGW&T, known laser cannon yields, and the SWTJ.)

Is this proof of the superior SW armor?

Lets not forget that SW warheads (including proton torpedoes) release their explosive yields in highly focused cones, and that SW armor is designed for dispersing energy over large surface areas. (This actually only serves to underscore just how impressive this is.) I agree with Ossus completely on this.

Also there were two torpedoes. We saw the results of one, but not neccesarily the other. The "shaking" could in fact be due to one or both ( we don't even know the full ex tent of the damage the other caused - we know from earlier examples that there appear to be some fairly volatile things on the Death STar's surface.)

Also, we wouldn't neccesarily see a big fireball or anything - as I said, the armor is super-dispersive, an the torpedoes are highly concentrated. The energy of the blast is going to be directed almost entirely into the armor, which is going to spread it over a larger s urface area and reradiate it away.

Perhaps the armour around the exhaust port was simply heavier than the rest of the station, I mean, if you will leave a gaping hole with a shaft directly to the reactor, the least you can do is to put some seriously heavy armour around it. It is one explanation, as if the X-Wings can rake up fireworks by simply strafing the surface of the superstructure, then as stated, either the torpedoes are weak as hell, and they only used the torpedoes because they didnt think anyone could simply fly in a straight line down towards the exhaust port and fire right down the shaft, or there is some seriously heavy armour on the exhaust port.

Taking into account the massive explosion we see as Red Leader pulls up, I always assumed that those torpedoes went off as well.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Ender wrote: Well, the problem is this: If the torpedos can shake the DS, then the DS is irrelevent since firing off the SL didn't cause it to rock from the recoil either.

It's a very fucked up scene.

Not really. The Death Star MUST have systems in place to prevent recoil from the superlaser from damaging the ship, but firing the superlaser is a stress that they can plan for EASILY during the engineering and construction of the station. However, it is far less likely that the station was constructed so as to allow for one-time impacts from torpedoes to a particular part of the station. It is much easier to build a station so as to reduce the effects of recoil than it is to protect the station against the effects of external impacts.

As Howedar said, the station should almost certainly have system for localizing the damage done by such impacts, but it's difficult to comprehend the amount of material strength required for so little damage to be done by the torpedoes to the armor, when so much KE was obviously being thrown around.

BTW, this lends further credence to the statement in ICSII that fusion rockets barely score the armored hull of Acclamator transports.

I'm not talking about recoil damaging the ship: I'm talking about the fact that even with Howdar's springs it still gets transmitted to the entire structure and would send the whole damn thing backwards. I considered bracings but dismissed them. The rocking means that sufficient momentum must have been imparted to an area where you wouldn't expect to experience massive amounts of it (nor would the impact shifting the structure be a danger if the structure is massive enough to resist being flung backwards in space by the SL firing) to overcome the acceleration compensators which we know can work under millions of Gs. Even if you go with the bracings then you still have that compensator to overcome, giving you a spectacularly absurdly high yield.

Ok, lets look at this mathmatically:

Lets say that the Death Star fires its engines as it fires it's SL, thus the momentum imparted by the SL would usually send its mass back 1000 meters. That gives it a mass of 3.33E26 kg. Lets say that each of these braced structures is 1% of the total structure (despite the fact that the cross section in the ICS shows nothing remotely resembling such a system). that means the chunk that shook masses 3.33E24 kg. Despite the evidence to the contrary, lets say that the acceleration compensator is only god to 100 earth standard gravities. Call the structure getting shoved a distance of 1 meter. Since the torps didn't vape a huge chunk of the structure, the momentum came from what energy it released, meaning we can use good old P=U/C to get an imparted energy of 9.8E35. But wait, there were two torpedos, so its down to a paltry 5E35 joules per fighter carried torpedo.

Check my math and concetual understanding here, shove it down Bobby's throat if I'm right, then we file it with TDIC and Think Tank as "fucked up scenes" unless there is some other explanation.

Don't know whether it really factors into this, but the area around the exaust port was suppose to be ray shielded, which means that the energy from the torp(s) detonating on the surface could have been interacting with it.

Lord of the Farce wrote:Don't know whether it really factors into this, but the area around the exaust port was suppose to be ray shielded, which means that the energy from the torp(s) detonating on the surface could have been interacting with it.

If the ray shields there were active, the torps should not have scored the armor.