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Somehow, Palpatine was able to take over the Government and become a dictator. I am kind of curious with the Republic being thousands of years old, if other powerful individuals in the Govenment had tried to do it in the past. Humans being Humans, I suspect that this would be the case. How serious were the events and how were they stopped in the past and why it did not work in Palpatine's case.

AFAIK other than the attack of the armies of the Sith 3996 years before ANH, and the resurgent Sith--"the Brotherhood of Darkness"--who fought the Army of Light on Ruusan 1000 years before ANH, there was never anyone or anything that threatened the Republic until Palaptine, whether or not they came from within the government.

Kitsune wrote:Somehow, Palpatine was able to take over the Government and become a dictator. I am kind of curious with the Republic being thousands of years old, if other powerful individuals in the Govenment had tried to do it in the past. Humans being Humans, I suspect that this would be the case. How serious were the events and how were they stopped in the past and why it did not work in Palpatine's case.

I'm sure there were the occasional attempts. But a less corrupt and more honest Republic would have little trouble short circuiting those that tried to win their way to an dictator's seat with political smarm and crush utterly those that tried to do so by force.

The best defense against an internal coup is a healthy, stable republic and for a long time the Old Republic was both.

Stormbringer wrote:I'm sure there were the occasional attempts. But a less corrupt and more honest Republic would have little trouble short circuiting those that tried to win their way to an dictator's seat with political smarm and crush utterly those that tried to do so by force.

The best defense against an internal coup is a healthy, stable republic and for a long time the Old Republic was both.

Let's also keep in mind that Palpatine may have been using his powers to influence various Senators to do his bidding. That's a particular skill that previous would-be dictators would not have had.

Darth Wong wrote: Let's also keep in mind that Palpatine may have been using his powers to influence various Senators to do his bidding. That's a particular skill that previous would-be dictators would not have had.

I thought AotC amde it pretty damn obvious that's exactly what he was doing.

Yeah. Y'know, in the beginning of AotC when Palpatine predicts what Amidala is going to say about the seriousness of the situation, Yoda gets an awfully suspicious look on his face. And then he promptly did... Absolutely nothing! Why put that in the movie if Yoda was going to jsut ignore and forget about the whole thing? Palpatine used his powers right there in the room with the Jedi Council!

Rogue 9 wrote:Yeah. Y'know, in the beginning of AotC when Palpatine predicts what Amidala is going to say about the seriousness of the situation, Yoda gets an awfully suspicious look on his face. And then he promptly did... Absolutely nothing! Why put that in the movie if Yoda was going to jsut ignore and forget about the whole thing? Palpatine used his powers right there in the room with the Jedi Council!

Well, Palpatine did know PAdme for a very long time (10+ years), and it's not unheard of for people to finish eachother's sentences. Sure, it was suspicious, but nothing to get too serious about.

Darth Wong wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:I'm sure there were the occasional attempts. But a less corrupt and more honest Republic would have little trouble short circuiting those that tried to win their way to an dictator's seat with political smarm and crush utterly those that tried to do so by force.

The best defense against an internal coup is a healthy, stable republic and for a long time the Old Republic was both.

Let's also keep in mind that Palpatine may have been using his powers to influence various Senators to do his bidding. That's a particular skill that previous would-be dictators would not have had.

Of course that's a big plus but it's hardly a requirement for him to be able to overthrow the Republic. There have been plently of would be dictators that have taken advantage of a weakened democracy to grab power.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:AFAIK other than the attack of the armies of the Sith 3996 years before ANH, and the resurgent Sith--"the Brotherhood of Darkness"--who fought the Army of Light on Ruusan 1000 years before ANH, there was never anyone or anything that threatened the Republic until Palaptine, whether or not they came from within the government.

And, of course, the Dark Jedi Schism concurrent with the Unification Wars that united the galaxy under the Galactic Republic and the formation of the Jedi Order (25,000 B.B.Y.), and also the Sith invasions from the enclaves in the ignored backwaters of the galaxy and the galactic halo, five thousand years before the Battle of Yavin.

EDIT:

Additionally, the Jedi and Republic fought the Manadalorians and other supporters of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma's Sith War in the Mandalorian Wars 3,900 years ago. Additionally, fallen Jedi led a new Sith War (Knights of the Old Republic RPG) around the same period.

Also, when one considers the fragile nature of the Republic in Prequel Trilogy era, one must consider that the present incarnation of the Republic is only 1,000 years old, having been reformed in reaction (similarly to the Jedi Order) following the Third Sith War with the Brotherhood and her supporters.

Also, when one considers the fragile nature of the Republic in Prequel Trilogy era, one must consider that the present incarnation of the Republic is only 1,000 years old, having been reformed in reaction (similarly to the Jedi Order) following the Third Sith War with the Brotherhood and her supporters.

A thousand years is a pretty damn good run. A Republic that corrupt couldn't have stood for that long. And really if we got by the prequels, the massive corruption of the Republic something fairly recent in the lifespan of the Republic.

A thousand years is longer than any other government ever made it on Earth. The longest dynasty ever should probably be the Zhou dynasty of China, which lasted for over 800 years. Even if we throw in the Spring and Autumn Analects and the Warring States period as being part of the Zhou dynasty ending throes, we still get only 900 years before the Zhou Emperor was deposed.

In AOTC it is revealed the Republic has no army. Question: If so, does this mean that the Republic that stood for 1'000 years did so by being decentralised? What I mean is, was defence handled by a planet's own defence force rather than a force which all members contributed towards?

Another concern: is there any source which states that members of the Republic have to be "nice" guys? No bloodthirsty dictators, no soviet gangsters etc. Is there a consititution? Is there some kind of "member requirement and obligation"?

It could be possible that the Republic was made up of planets like Naboo, with its nice, peaceful, artsy people, while at the same time having planets like Tatooine, with its slaves and gangsters controlling the planet. (I know Tatooine isn't a part of the Republic, but I can't think of another example - I hope my general meaning comes across). If so, then it might mean that petty dictators needn't bother trying to aim too high, they can take over a small group of systems and militarise the hell out of it. So long as they're obeying the law there's nothing the Jedi can do to them.

Stofsk wrote:In AOTC it is revealed the Republic has no army.

Only the galactic army has no true military. They can request help from the Jedi Order and they have the paramilitary forces of the Judiciary Department.

Stofsk wrote:Question: If so, does this mean that the Republic that stood for 1'000 years did so by being decentralised? What I mean is, was defence handled by a planet's own defence force rather than a force which all members contributed towards?

The Republic is highly-over-centralized. Notice Padme has no recourse when the Trade Federation occupies Naboo but to appeal to the Galactic Senate, not the Sectorial government, not the Regional government, but the Galactic legislature.

It is only military forces which are de-centralized in control.

The Republic's Regions and Sectors field their own Security Forces, which supplant the member state's actual militaries (ie. Naboo's Royal Space Forces and bodyguard, Corellia's CorSec, Kuat's military, etc.). Member world's retain their own local militaries all throughout the Empire and through the New Republic era.

Private entities such as the massive corporate consortiums also establish significant armed forces. In limited form, this is also permitted under the Empire, with the CSA and Prince Xizor of Falleen's private navy.

Stofsk wrote:Another concern: is there any source which states that members of the Republic have to be "nice" guys? No bloodthirsty dictators, no soviet gangsters etc. Is there a consititution? Is there some kind of "member requirement and obligation"?

Any particular member rising up and making a power-play would routinely be checked by the other local powers. However, there have been political games played where there were local wars of conquest which the Republic ignored at the galactic level (revealing the failings of their over-centralization).

Stofsk wrote:It could be possible that the Republic was made up of planets like Naboo, with its nice, peaceful, artsy people, while at the same time having planets like Tatooine, with its slaves and gangsters controlling the planet. (I know Tatooine isn't a part of the Republic, but I can't think of another example - I hope my general meaning comes across). If so, then it might mean that petty dictators needn't bother trying to aim too high, they can take over a small group of systems and militarise the hell out of it. So long as they're obeying the law there's nothing the Jedi can do to them.

Precisely. Along with our buddies the Lorrians (?) who were conquered and forbidden to speak to one another for centuries, and the Hapans, plagued by pirates for as long as well, the Republic was numb to local injustices and despots due to the sluggishness of expecting the Galactic Senate to react to such problems.

Kuat had their own defense forces, but they were relatively short-ranged vessels intended for sectorial defense rather than power projection.

phongn wrote:Kuat had their own defense forces, but they were relatively short-ranged vessels intended for sectorial defense rather than power projection.

As were all large warships of this period--there was simply no need to build-in the capacity to deploy pan-galactic campiagns--the local neighborhood of sectors and the local region perhaps were all that was strategically important to a sectorial navy.

The Acclamator-class was remarkable for being one of the first warships in many years to be designed with a pan-galactic range in mind. This may also explain some of the predominance of the Acclamator-type hullform as a tool of Republic power in the early Clone Wars.

A thousand years is longer than any other government ever made it on Earth. The longest dynasty ever should probably be the Zhou dynasty of China, which lasted for over 800 years. Even if we throw in the Spring and Autumn Analects and the Warring States period as being part of the Zhou dynasty ending throes, we still get only 900 years before the Zhou Emperor was deposed.

But realistically, the Zhou effectively lost all power after only 400-500 years. After that they were really only a petty province, who held nominal but largely pointless ritual powers.

Smiling Bandit wrote:

A thousand years is longer than any other government ever made it on Earth. The longest dynasty ever should probably be the Zhou dynasty of China, which lasted for over 800 years. Even if we throw in the Spring and Autumn Analects and the Warring States period as being part of the Zhou dynasty ending throes, we still get only 900 years before the Zhou Emperor was deposed.

But realistically, the Zhou effectively lost all power after only 400-500 years. After that they were really only a petty province, who held nominal but largely pointless ritual powers.

No. The Zhou Dynasty fall from grace is essentially traced back to when the nomadic tribes of the north sacked the capital, an incident that occured due to the Zhou Emperor abuse of the alarm beacons which would had summoned troops to the capital defence.That's still a good 800 years.

Of course, if one wishes to argue about whether the Zhou dynasty still had centralised power, then the Zhou Dynasty only lasted 3 decades or so as after the founder King Wu death, power was effectively decentralised.

The Republic of Venice is a better example and it lasted longer than the Zhou Dynasty. From 726 to 1797 Venice's government remained independant of all its neighbors, falling only to the combined pressure of Austria and France.

I believe Iceland has the world's longest serving legislature. Over a thousand years, without breaking up, IIRC.

"Settled by Norwegian and Celtic (Scottish and Irish) immigrants during the late 9th and 10th centuries A.D., Iceland boasts the world's oldest functioning legislative assembly, the Althing, established in 930." - CIA World Factbook.

Stormbringer wrote:

Kitsune wrote:Somehow, Palpatine was able to take over the Government and become a dictator. I am kind of curious with the Republic being thousands of years old, if other powerful individuals in the Govenment had tried to do it in the past. Humans being Humans, I suspect that this would be the case. How serious were the events and how were they stopped in the past and why it did not work in Palpatine's case.

I'm sure there were the occasional attempts. But a less corrupt and more honest Republic would have little trouble short circuiting those that tried to win their way to an dictator's seat with political smarm and crush utterly those that tried to do so by force.

The best defense against an internal coup is a healthy, stable republic and for a long time the Old Republic was both.

I agree with the occasional attempts. Also recall that we really don't know a whole lot of the roughly 4,000 year gap between Exar Kun's death and Ulic-Qel Droma's redemption and the Phantom Menace - certainly little tidbits but nothing concrete. Anything could happen.

Could prove interesting if Dark Horses or Lucasfilm chooses to go back to this era...

We do know there were a string of Mandalorian Wars in the years after Kun's defeat and the end of the [First] Sith War. It was around a half century later a second Sith war began (chronicled in KoToR RPG).

2,000 Years before Yavin you have the resurgance of the Sith with a string of Jedi heretics becoming a new Sith. War ensues.

1,000 Years before Yavin, 1000s of the descendents of the last surge of Sith fought a final war with the Jedi and Republic. Ending at the Battle of Ruusan, which was thought to wipe out the Sith but didn't, the Jedi and Republic launched reactionary reforms which emasculated the Order and State which aided in the slump to decay seen a millenia later.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:We do know there were a string of Mandalorian Wars in the years after Kun's defeat and the end of the [First] Sith War. It was around a half century later a second Sith war began (chronicled in KoToR RPG).

2,000 Years before Yavin you have the resurgance of the Sith with a string of Jedi heretics becoming a new Sith. War ensues.

1,000 Years before Yavin, 1000s of the descendents of the last surge of Sith fought a final war with the Jedi and Republic. Ending at the Battle of Ruusan, which was thought to wipe out the Sith but didn't, the Jedi and Republic launched reactionary reforms which emasculated the Order and State which aided in the slump to decay seen a millenia later.

Don't forget Yoda on Dathomir.

Darth Wong wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:I'm sure there were the occasional attempts. But a less corrupt and more honest Republic would have little trouble short circuiting those that tried to win their way to an dictator's seat with political smarm and crush utterly those that tried to do so by force.

The best defense against an internal coup is a healthy, stable republic and for a long time the Old Republic was both.

Let's also keep in mind that Palpatine may have been using his powers to influence various Senators to do his bidding. That's a particular skill that previous would-be dictators would not have had.

Yes, although we can't be certain if Dooku was telling the truth given how he wanted to recruit Obi-Wan one minute and kill him the next.