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As has been shown, the New Republic was for the most part, a failure. Where did it go wrong?

I always though they way they simply tried to recreate the Old Republic was the problem, they didn't address the problems that led to Palpatine wrecking it.

The New Republic didn't have the Jedi to hold it together, it was too decentralized and weakened, and later on it lost any unity in parliament-with Leia as our grand incompetent.

However, they DID finally manage to beat the Vong, I just wish I knew how they did it.

A strong federal nation-state will be more able to defend itself than a loose collection of affiliated nation-states, and the NR was basically the latter.

Its openess about letting members enter and leave, essentially at will if Black Fleet Crisis is to be believed, is frought with huge dangers. A nation that is not held together by anything more than the appearence of joint intention is not a nation. The New Republic is perhaps the best example possible of a loose conglomeration of city states that just happen to have a notion of federalized defense.

Sharp-kun wrote:As has been shown, the New Republic was for the most part, a failure. Where did it go wrong?

I always though they way they simply tried to recreate the Old Republic was the problem, they didn't address the problems that led to Palpatine wrecking it.

The transition between a guerilla organisation into a legitimate government probably had a detrimental effect. Although I can't recall the source, apparently Mon Mothma disallowed the construction of Executor-class commandships (or a New Republic equivalent) for some odd basis.

That was just one example and of a military nature. It implies the rebels wanted to distance themselves away from Palpy's regime, and in doing so handicapped themselves to some degree.

Another way to look at it is that both the Empire and New Republic were extremes - the Empire was order, the New Republic was chaos (or at least degenerated into chaos, if what I've read is true of the NJO). Perhaps whatever replaces the New Republic will be more balanced/moderate.

Sharp-kun wrote:As has been shown, the New Republic was for the most part, a failure. Where did it go wrong?

I always though they way they simply tried to recreate the Old Republic was the problem, they didn't address the problems that led to Palpatine wrecking it.

The remarkable regeneration of the New Republic and a legitimate, orderly government that was relatively incorrupt for over 20 years? That's a miracle damn it.


But anyway, IMO, the problem was the Senate had both Executive and Legislative powers. This, combined with the endless committees thus formed(and the jockeying of power this entailed when the Rebellion leaders stepped down) probably dissipated the vitality of the Republic.

I think that is when a bunch of idealists got the power.

I also think, that they simply re-installed the old republic without even considering to eliminate the flaws of it. I think they were blinded of the story of the oh-so-good old Republic, that they hadn't even considered what could have brought it to fall.
It was the same that had broken the neck of the first German Republic, something that we called the "Ermächtigungsgesetz". Both, the German and the Galactic Republic simply had given up democraty for a ruler.


By the way. Currently I'm writing a fanfiction, where Vader returned to the light and Padmè still lived, and togehter, after the Rebellion was crushed, that start a "Movement for a new Empire", to make the Empire something better, knowing the unhappyness with the current ruler. I find a part of a talk, when the rest of the Allaince wants to join interesting:

Anakin:"They are idealistic, but naive and stupid. They wanted chaos and countless deth to only re-install a non-functional govenment."
Padmè:"Yes, I wonder why they hadn't even planned for the day after victory. They hadn't even bothered, unlike us, to write a new constution for the state."
Anakin:"Yes, but now we are here. They have to lear to never act as criminals, but bring the people on your side."
Padmè:"Great parts of the Outer rim already are on our side. We will succeed."
Anakin:"Admiral Piett had to bring the Executor to the rondevouz point, there we will finally see our children and set things right..."

Sharp-kun wrote:As has been shown, the New Republic was for the most part, a failure. Where did it go wrong?

I always though they way they simply tried to recreate the Old Republic was the problem, they didn't address the problems that led to Palpatine wrecking it.

You're essentially correct. The problem was simply that the overwhelming flaws of the Old Republic were not addressed at all, hell some of Senators were the same one's as the old Senate. Like most counter-revolutionaries they didn't stop and consider what brought about the revolution in the first place. They reinstated a broken system with out repairing it. That's a recipe for disaster.

PainRack wrote:The remarkable regeneration of the New Republic and a legitimate, orderly government that was relatively incorrupt for over 20 years? That's a miracle damn it.

BULL SHIT! Look at the corruption with the likes of Borsk Fey'ala during the Thrawn Trilogy or the one in Planet of Twilight or the countless pissant rebellions that nearly took out the New Republic out. For fuck's sake, those Empire builders that took apart the New Republic were there all along; that it shambled along for twenty five years is amazing in and of itself.

PainRack wrote:The remarkable regeneration of the New Republic and a legitimate, orderly government that was relatively incorrupt for over 20 years? That's a miracle damn it.

Read The X-wing novels. Read the Thrawn Trilogy. Read The New Rebellion. Read the Black Fleet Crisis. Read virtually any EU novel, for shit's sake. The NR Senate was always balanced on a thread, just waiting to explode whenever some happy sap with a Star Destroyer makes a threat, and individual senators (BORSK FEY'LYA - VIQI SESH) were constantly looking for legal and illegal ways to improve their standing. Leia and Mon Mothma resigned and came back to the top chair time after time The New Republic should consider itself lucky that it didn't tear itself apart.

Kuja wrote:...Leia and Mon Mothma resigned and came back to the top chair time after time The New Republic should consider itself lucky that it didn't tear itself apart.

When did Mon Mothma come back to the top chair? I thought she had that assassination attempt on her, which forced her to retire and she never came back into office?

Stofsk wrote:

Kuja wrote:...Leia and Mon Mothma resigned and came back to the top chair time after time The New Republic should consider itself lucky that it didn't tear itself apart.

When did Mon Mothma come back to the top chair? I thought she had that assassination attempt on her, which forced her to retire and she never came back into office?

The New Rebellion.

In any event, let's hope the Galatic Alliance prevails where its predecessor failed.

The NR's problem during the war with the vong was simply, they were in the wrong mentality. They thought that was similiar to their previous threats, that they could negotiate with them and share a good bottle of Endorian port.

And of course, the treason of a certain Kuati senator didn't help either- may Kuat never recover from this debacle!

JME2 wrote:In any event, let's hope the Galatic Alliance previals where its predecessor failed.

Yeah.
Can I ask, if the Imperial Remnant has stabilized at some point in these 20 years?

JME2 wrote:In any event, let's hope the Galatic Alliance previals where its predecessor failed.

Personally, I hope they get curbstomped by the Empire.

Stormbringer wrote:

JME2 wrote:In any event, let's hope the Galatic Alliance previals where its predecessor failed.

Personally, I hope they get curbstomped by the Empire.

Why?

Esp. when the Galactic Empire no longer exists.

The fact that Borsk Fey'lya was not executed or even thrown in jail after his behavior during TTT is quite a condemnation of the New Republic. Any rational society would have put him away or hung the bastard.

I think it comes down to two major problems:

Decentralization-
The planets were too loosely tied together, and what's worse, the New Republic put all power in the hands of the Senate. Each individual Senator is concerned with the sector he represents and will only rarely care about the common good. I bet their budgets were a recurring pork-barrel nightmare.

Another catastrophically bad decision they made was to allow individual member states to maintain their own militaries without answering to the higher authority in any way. Who came up with that idea? Allowing them to build their own fleets and raise their own armies is fine, and possibly a good idea considering the size and heterogenous nature of the galaxy. But the failure to make these forces ultimate under the command of the central government was an unbelievably stupid omission, which was nearly disastrous several times.

That the whole "leave if you want to" thing was stupid goes with saying. Asshats.

Focussing Small-

This is a side effect of the decentralization, but it's a pet peeve of mine so I think it bears mentioning. The New Republic spent way too much time fucking around with individual planets, and sometimes utterly unimportant planets. They send Leia, their most important diplomat, on missions to the galactic equivalents of Moultrie Country, Georgia all the time. It's time to move past the Rebellion days and think about the future.

Most of the responsibility for this stupidity falls on the shoulders of minimalist EU authors, but it's part of canon, praise god.

Also the NR relied heavily on the previous Imperial administrators without giving them the power and control needed for governing a sector. The NR in it's arrogance shyed away from all symbols of the Empire without offering up anything solid to replace it, nature abhors a vacuum and so the NR fell apart.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:

JME2 wrote:In any event, let's hope the Galatic Alliance previals where its predecessor failed.

Personally, I hope they get curbstomped by the Empire.

Why?

Esp. when the Galactic Empire no longer exists.

Because they're a deserving bunch of idiots. It was only through shear neligence of their duty and the corruption of certain parties that brought about the whole Vong mess in the first place.


I'm sure there some loyal Imperial hearts still out there.

Stormbringer wrote:Because they're a deserving bunch of idiots. It was only through shear neligence of their duty and the corruption of certain parties that brought about the whole Vong mess in the first place.

I think the Vong itself are the wake-call needed.

I predict a new era where new regional governments (analogous to GE Oversectors) hold lots of power, and that the galactic members will be highly mistrustful of the selfish worlds which precipitated the conflict. I'd expect a strong-voting bloc of Outer Rim worlds to vote pretty solidly together in this new government.

Stormbringer wrote:I'm sure there some loyal Imperial hearts still out there.

Maybe I'd have more faith if their leader wasn't one of the most mediocre at best officers ever produced by the Academy, and outright inept at worst. Not to mention Pelleaon's regime was stupid enough to keep propping-up the stupid Dark Jedi insurrections (Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy).

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Another catastrophically bad decision they made was to allow individual member states to maintain their own militaries without answering to the higher authority in any way. Who came up with that idea? Allowing them to build their own fleets and raise their own armies is fine, and possibly a good idea considering the size and heterogenous nature of the galaxy. But the failure to make these forces ultimate under the command of the central government was an unbelievably stupid omission, which was nearly disastrous several times.

IIRC, the American invasion of Canada in the War of 1812 was partially doomed because of a similar scenario, wasn't it? Something about state militia being recalled in the middle of the inasion.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Decentralization-
The planets were too loosely tied together, and what's worse, the New Republic put all power in the hands of the Senate.

This would be overcentralization of powers (moreover at mostly the exclusion of the other governmental branches, muchless the other federal levels of power), which crippled the Old Republic.

(Note: it may be exactly this invasive overcentralization which discouraged full membership in the New Republic on the scale the Empire saw; many states prefered to remain protectorates and allies, while comparitively few wanted to surrender so much power to a single planet in the Core, particularly one with such an inept administration.)

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Each individual Senator is concerned with the sector he represents and will only rarely care about the common good. I bet their budgets were a recurring pork-barrel nightmare.

Again, the problem is overcentralization of powers into a single body plagued by regionalism.

The Galactic Senate should never have been dealing with individual member worlds in the first place, but the Sector (or better yet, Regional) governments of which they were members.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Another catastrophically bad decision they made was to allow individual member states to maintain their own militaries without answering to the higher authority in any way.

Uh? They still have to pay taxes to support the primary military. This actually means the central government's military can concentrate on defense of the galaxy as a whole with much more far-reaching and mobile goals without focusing on the stupid local policing and world-by-world defense. This is a GOOD thing, it prevents micromanagement and overcentralization of powers without screwing individual members. The BAD thing is that the central government was too weak and its military too small.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Who came up with that idea? Allowing them to build their own fleets and raise their own armies is fine, and possibly a good idea considering the size and heterogenous nature of the galaxy. But the failure to make these forces ultimate under the command of the central government was an unbelievably stupid omission, which was nearly disastrous several times.

Not really, that's what the seperation of powers is for. The local governments are soveriegn entities and retain the right to raise militaries as they see fit; they pay taxes and send representatives to deal with galactic-scale militaries.

The Empire allowed autonomous member militaries. CorSec, the Kuati Sector Fleet, etc. The Sector Groups were permanent occupation forces to faciliate the rule through fear of force doctrine.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:That the whole "leave if you want to" thing was stupid goes with saying. Asshats.

Indeed. There should be procedures for leaving the Republic, but be subject to say, Sectorial-level vote, which will moderate hot-heads.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:This is a side effect of the decentralization, but it's a pet peeve of mine so I think it bears mentioning. The New Republic spent way too much time fucking around with individual planets, and sometimes utterly unimportant planets. They send Leia, their most important diplomat, on missions to the galactic equivalents of Moultrie Country, Georgia all the time. It's time to move past the Rebellion days and think about the future.

Most of the responsibility for this stupidity falls on the shoulders of minimalist EU authors, but it's part of canon, praise god.

Forgive me for being frank, but you're totally wrong. Its exactly overcentralization: the central government is executing duties which should be in the hands of what were the local Moffs in the Empire. In fact, it was this that was the Empire's strength: decentralization. In the NJO, it is the inaction of the central government which prevents effective measures from being adopted by the NRDF. The fringe worlds have token patrol and police forces at best. In the Empire, the local Moff or Grand Moff would've raised his own Starfleet and immediately begin warding off incursions without awaiting response from Imperial Centre. It is exactly the overcentralization of power on the Senate, and the overdependence on the NRDF commanded from Coruscant which lead to these difficulties.

The New Republic's leadership didn't understand precisely what they were doing. In Specter of the Past, it is revealed that the New Republic is adopting increasing measures of decentralisation (most probably in reaction to what they perceived as oppressive hypercentralisation by the Empire), without seeming to understand that the Empire practised a robust, decentralise federalism (a tremendous amount of authority was vested in the Moff Governors and Grand Moff Governors under the Imperial system).

What the New Republic was in fact reacting against was autocracy and authoritarianism; their understanding of political science was so superficial that they could not distinguish between the despotic concentration of power in the hands of a classical tyrant (which was rarely overtly exercised, in any case) and centralisation. This is hardly surprising given the astounding naïveté demonstrated by President Organa Solo in the Black Fleet Crisis; General Bel Iblis and General A'baht appear to be the only realistic people in any positions of prominence in the New Republic.

The problem with the New Republic is that it was dominated by many of the same leaders as the feeble old Republic (e.g., Senator Mothma, Senator Gno, Senator Beruss, &c.). One is reminded of Mgr de Talleyrand-Perigord's comment on the Bourbons after the Restoration: "They have learned nothing, and forgotten nothing."

PUBLIUS

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:Because they're a deserving bunch of idiots. It was only through shear neligence of their duty and the corruption of certain parties that brought about the whole Vong mess in the first place.

I think the Vong itself are the wake-call needed.

I predict a new era where new regional governments (analogous to GE Oversectors) hold lots of power, and that the galactic members will be highly mistrustful of the selfish worlds which precipitated the conflict. I'd expect a strong-voting bloc of Outer Rim worlds to vote pretty solidly together in this new government.

Stormbringer wrote:I'm sure there some loyal Imperial hearts still out there.

Maybe I'd have more faith if their leader wasn't one of the most mediocre at best officers ever produced by the Academy, and outright inept at worst. Not to mention Pelleaon's regime was stupid enough to keep propping-up the stupid Dark Jedi insurrections (Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy).

I agree; the Outer Rim is going to have more of a say in galactic matters, especially given how Fey'lya and the others pretty much threw them to the Vong in order to make a stand in the Core.