How did the Jedi become the Galaxies dominant Force Religon?

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2003-12-02 03:23pm

I was reading through some pages I had archived of Robert Brown's website. And it got me to thinking; he once speculated, the their were likely many wars and purges during the evolution of the Jedi order.

We know that the Jedi evolved from the early Bendu monks, who first studied the Force. The original script for SW also named Lucas' superwarriors Jedi-Bendu (a tip of the hat to Dune's Beni-Jusits, perhaps).

Now interestingly the Bendu still exist, but their order don't appear to made up of force sensitives. Which is loosely supported by TPM; where we are told that the Jedi take virtually all force sensitive children into the order.

So just what is the relationship between the Jedi and the Bendu? Was there an equivalent to the Reformation or something? Were their holy wars? The Unifying Force belief comes form the Bendu, apparently; but what caused the schism originally?

Thoughts, opinion, wild ass speculations?

Theirs a Fanfic oportunity here me thinks. I been doing research on a story idea. I'm thinking about adapting some themes and ideas from; the early christian church, the papal states etc.

Any info on other force sensitive groups, force beliefs etc, will be greatly appreciated.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-12-02 04:00pm

Well i'm betting that since Jedi and such could use the force it quickly gained credit.

You go up to a Christian and ask him to give him evidence god exists and he might have a bit of trouble. you go up to a Jedi and ask him if the Force exists and he picks up a rock with his mind.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-12-02 04:36pm

If a non-Jedi Force religion follower can do the same, who's to say the jedi is right and the other guy isn't?

Assuming that the other guy is also Force-sensitive.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-12-02 04:41pm

eeeerrr... the Jedi got there first therefor has better press? The Jedi says "That guy uses the darkside, he must be stopped!" and everyone goes all jihad?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-02 04:45pm

Hmm. Well, what would you choose? The Jedi, who use their Force power to protect you and otherwise leave you alone, or the Sith Lords, who subjugate you and sometimes will kill you for pleasure? I'd go with the Jedi.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-12-02 04:55pm

That's assuming that the only groups that use the Force are Jedi and Sith.

During the process of leading to this, that may not be true.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-12-02 05:01pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Hmm. Well, what would you choose? The Jedi, who use their Force power to protect you and otherwise leave you alone, or the Sith Lords, who subjugate you and sometimes will kill you for pleasure? I'd go with the Jedi.

Jedi and sith are not the only force users out their.

Two examples: Witchs of Dathomir and the Aii-Ting Monks.

Also there was the jenisaaari who were proto-sith.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-02 05:07pm

The Jensaari were hidden and relatively new. The Witches were a limited and rather primitive tribal society; not much for the galaxy at large to follow. I don't knwo much abotu the Aii-Ting. Were they those guys in Vision of the Future? I forget. Too many monastic orders. >_<

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-12-02 05:10pm

Rogue 9 wrote:The Jensaari were hidden and relatively new. The Witches were a limited and rather primitive tribal society; not much for the galaxy at large to follow. I don't knwo much abotu the Aii-Ting. Were they those guys in Vision of the Future? I forget. Too many monastic orders. >_<

1) The Jenisaari have been around since just after the clone wars. (or clone war as the pt would have us beleive) Remeber the corran flashback/A'klaa memni??

2) Yes the Aii-Ting were form Vision of the future

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-02 05:23pm

The Bendu Monks became the Jedi Order. Hence the cog on the Jedi Starfighter.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-12-02 05:24pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Bendu Monks became the Jedi Order. Hence the cog on the Jedi Starfighter.

Different set of monks.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-12-02 05:26pm

Perhaps the Jedi method is simply the most comprehensive and powerful/useful method.

Also, the Jedi had hyperdrive, that kinda backs up them up.

Also, the 'Will of the Force' probably helped.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2003-12-02 07:26pm

IP said:

The Bendu Monks became the Jedi Order. Hence the cog on the Jedi Starfighter.

I would have to only partially agree with that, the jedi did evolve from the Bendu. But the Bendu monks still exist, if I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong on that point, but I seem to remember it mentioned in one of the WEG source books.

There was also the primitive race on that Jedi planet in dark empire, their civilization was at least 3,500 years old. Also in a recent Jango Fett graphic novel, their is a primitive race, that had a force totem infused with enough power to destroy Courscant had it been allowed to detonate a its core. Now this was a race that, had no visible technology more advanced than a spear. I'd say there are lots of force "Religons" in the Galaxy, and powerful ones to.

Hmmm...maybe the Bendu are where all the padawans that flunk out, end up!

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2003-12-02 08:56pm

Look for my origin theory later in my Star Trek/Star Wars crossover, 'The Best of Both Wolrds'.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2003-12-03 02:49pm

My guess is the same way that Christianity came about. Early Jedi were persecuted and nothing builds a movement like persecution. In addition they were probably very well organized.

As a side statement, there is a very good chance that Christianity would not be the religion it is today if the Romans had not so persecuted them in the early days. We would all be better off if the Romans had just ignored them. No persecution means no martyrs for the cause.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-12-03 03:11pm

Weren´t the Nightsisters descandents of one or several female outcasts of the Jedi-Order?

Besides Sith, Jeenesari, Aing-Tii-monks and Dathomir Witches there are also the Fallanasi.

Interesting is, that all those groups of force-users aside from the Jedi are either primitives, descendants of fallen Jedi or secluded and isolated societies.

One has to wonder why?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-12-03 03:32pm

My guess is that there where pockets of force users all arround the place with varying philosophies. Each one gradualy merged with the others eventually becoming the Jedi Order.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-12-03 03:37pm

MrAnderson wrote:My guess is the same way that Christianity came about. Early Jedi were persecuted and nothing builds a movement like persecution. In addition they were probably very well organized.

As a side statement, there is a very good chance that Christianity would not be the religion it is today if the Romans had not so persecuted them in the early days. We would all be better off if the Romans had just ignored them. No persecution means no martyrs for the cause.

Add to that that appearently at some point the Republic embraced the Jedi order instead of other Force sensitive groups. The Jedi's rise in power is probably linked to its affiliation with the Republic. Again, somewhat akin to Christiananity and Rome.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-03 06:59pm

MrAnderson wrote:My guess is the same way that Christianity came about. Early Jedi were persecuted and nothing builds a movement like persecution. In addition they were probably very well organized.

As a side statement, there is a very good chance that Christianity would not be the religion it is today if the Romans had not so persecuted them in the early days. We would all be better off if the Romans had just ignored them. No persecution means no martyrs for the cause.

*Chuckle.* Very common misconception, that. The Romans didn't persecute Christians because of their religion. Feeding someone to the lions was the punishment for cannibalism; the Romans misunderstood Communion and thought that the early Christians were literally eating the body of Christ and drinking His actual blood.

Might I venture to ask how you'd be better off without us?

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2003-12-03 08:18pm

*Chuckle.* Very common misconception, that. The Romans didn't persecute Christians because of their religion. Feeding someone to the lions was the punishment for cannibalism; the Romans misunderstood Communion and thought that the early Christians were literally eating the body of Christ and drinking His actual blood.

Might I venture to ask how you'd be better off without us?

That's a myth, yes their were some intial misconceptions with the canabalism / communion; but the real reason that they persecuted was that they refused to worship the Emperor as a god, the same reason the jews were beat down. The the romans were very cosmopolitain in the religous beliefs. Basically believe what you want, but pay your taxes, and pay homage to the emperor.

The real reason christianity got as far as it did was that from the begining it catered to: the poor, women, children, and even slaves. That and it was similar to the other 'Mystery' religons and general mysticism that existed at the time. Basically most of the religons in the Empire, were exculsive to the wealthy and or powerful, and soldiers. Any religon that openly embraced the masses, would have boomed in that enviroment.

Back to the Jedi. Its obvious from canon and official sources that Jedi view the extermination of the Sith as their duty. Hey, did Qui-gon or Obi-wan try to talk Maul down? They actively hunt down thoughs who fall to the darkside. So it should not be all that suprising if they, had actively sought out other groups and force them to convert to the Jedi way. Isolated and easily contained groups like the planet bound Darthmoir Witches could simply be monitored and contained.

Judging from real life, it seems likely that they were at least some purges. I mean hey they did exterminate the Maldorians, after all.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-12-03 08:34pm

There have been so many Jedi schisms and purges since the formation of The Order that I don't see why it would be surprising to find out that they were founded by such conflict.

We know that 1) A long-ass time ago, the Force was discovered by a group of intellectuals 2) They learn to use it 3) 25,000 BBY, humans obtain hyperspace, the (first) Republic is formed, and the Jedi are formed.
That date, 25K BBY, is pretty important, and you gotta think that some big shit went down then. My guess is that the first Republic was the winning combatant of some kind of war brought on by the introduction of hyperspace. The Jedi Order would be the Republic's Force-using partner, but other factions in the war may have been or had their own Force-users. The reason I think there was a war there is this: the Coruscanti come to you and say they have hyperdrive, and resistance is futile, so join them. Do you give up without a fight?

On a side note, since there's 30,000+ years of SW largely unfleshed out, I think that's where the focus of the EU should be. There are literally thousands of huge events that could take place without it seeming like a stretch, because they aren't happening one after the other like in the Post-Endor timeline. Plus, it'll be harder for the writers to contradict themselves, since they can just start writing crazy shit, and we have nothing to say it's wrong, or it's otherwise easily reconcilable.

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2003-12-03 08:38pm

[quote="Spartan]
Back to the Jedi. Its obvious from canon and official sources that Jedi view the extermination of the Sith as their duty. Hey, did Qui-gon or Obi-wan try to talk Maul down?[/quote]
Considering Maul said like 20 words in the entire movie, I think that would have been a losing proposition

. Not to mention he attacked Jinn on the spot, and brandished his lightsaber when he saw the two Jedi. The Jedi learned long ago that you couldn't talk down a Sith.

You have to see the reverse side of the coin- The Sith want power. Other force-users stand in the way of power. What is most likely is the Sith seek to exterminate the Jedi.

They actively hunt down thoughs who fall to the darkside.

Have they ever met a Sith who came back to the light?

Hell, the Allies basically exterminated the Nazi party. Does that make them bloodthirsty, or just intelligent enough to see a bad egg?

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-12-03 08:51pm

pecker wrote:Have they ever met a Sith who came back to the light?

There are several powerful Sith Lords who have been "redeemed" in the eyes of the Jedi in the history of the Jedi Order that Master Jinn and Padawan Kenobi would have been aware of.
The most notable, of course, is Ulic Qel-Droma.
Revan, formerly the victorious leader of the Republic forces in the Mandalorian War, and subsequently Emperor Darth Revan of the Sith Empire and Dark Lord of the Sith, was captured and reformed by the Jedi Order.

This leaves aside the fact that although the Jedi may view these (and the later ones, such as Anakin Skywalker and Kyp Durron) fallen angels as redeemed, the Galaxy at large would be hard pressed to do the same.

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2003-12-03 09:00pm

Robert Treder wrote:
pecker wrote:Have they ever met a Sith who came back to the light?
There are several powerful Sith Lords who have been "redeemed" in the eyes of the Jedi in the history of the Jedi Order that Master Jinn and Padawan Kenobi would have been aware of.
The most notable, of course, is Ulic Qel-Droma.
Revan, formerly the victorious leader of the Republic forces in the Mandalorian War, and subsequently Emperor Darth Revan of the Sith Empire and Dark Lord of the Sith, was captured and reformed by the Jedi Order.

This leaves aside the fact that although the Jedi may view these (and the later ones, such as Anakin Skywalker and Kyp Durron) fallen angels as redeemed, the Galaxy at large would be hard pressed to do the same.

Well, Revan was created after TPM, so you can't really blame Lucas for that.

Anyway, in the entire history of the Republic, where thousand of Sith have likely existed, a handful of them have been redeemed, but until they've caused great devestation to the galaxy. However, in both instances in TPM, Maul was the aggressor, and made no signs he wanted nothing more than to skewer the Jedi in cold blood.

Anyway, Obi-Wan didn't know much about Count Dooku, and he was still alive. What are the odds he's going to know about a few 4,000 year dead Sith? I'm sure that Galactic History 101 has much more important information on the 25,000 year history of the Republic. You know, like the Sith war 1,000 years prior that ravaged the galaxy

.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-12-03 09:34pm

Robert Treder wrote:There have been so many Jedi schisms and purges since the formation of The Order that I don't see why it would be surprising to find out that they were founded by such conflict.

We know that 1) A long-ass time ago, the Force was discovered by a group of intellectuals 2) They learn to use it 3) 25,000 BBY, humans obtain hyperspace, the (first) Republic is formed, and the Jedi are formed.
That date, 25K BBY, is pretty important, and you gotta think that some big shit went down then. My guess is that the first Republic was the winning combatant of some kind of war brought on by the introduction of hyperspace. The Jedi Order would be the Republic's Force-using partner, but other factions in the war may have been or had their own Force-users. The reason I think there was a war there is this: the Coruscanti come to you and say they have hyperdrive, and resistance is futile, so join them. Do you give up without a fight?

On a side note, since there's 30,000+ years of SW largely unfleshed out, I think that's where the focus of the EU should be. There are literally thousands of huge events that could take place without it seeming like a stretch, because they aren't happening one after the other like in the Post-Endor timeline. Plus, it'll be harder for the writers to contradict themselves, since they can just start writing crazy shit, and we have nothing to say it's wrong, or it's otherwise easily reconcilable.

I thought they used a form of subspace travel 25000 bby or so in xim the despots time.