Best canon Swordsman.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-12-18 03:22pm

Who was the most skilled with a lightsaber?
And when i say "canon" mean characters who have appeared in the films only BUT the evidence of their skills can come from the EU.

Please comment on whoand why.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 04:12pm

Yoda, no contest. If someone can get that good with a saber using nothing but the repressive and constrictive "light side" ideology, than their true Force potential is utterly unimagineable.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-18 04:33pm

in episode 1(maybe episode 2) it's mentioned that yoda is the most skilled jedi swordsman, though there might be others in other eras. it's hard to compare really.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 04:35pm

The blurry, green helicopter of death scene from AOTC only scratches the surface of what he is capable of.

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2003-12-18 04:50pm

Now when Dooku retreated from Yoda in AOTC, was he backing off because Yoda was overwhelming him or because he had the Death Star plans with him and couldn't risk it falling into the wrong hands? I've never really decided either way.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2003-12-18 06:34pm

Perhaps Yoda, but this relies on one variable: his energy. He was obviously wasting energy at an acclerated rate. The better the fighter he is depends on his endurance. I honestly prefer Mace's Form VII, it is swift and seems to waste far less energy. What I'd like to see is a Mace vs. Dooku duel.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 06:39pm

Mlenk wrote:Now when Dooku retreated from Yoda in AOTC, was he backing off because Yoda was overwhelming him or because he had the Death Star plans with him and couldn't risk it falling into the wrong hands? I've never really decided either way.

Yoda was wearing Dooku down faster than Dooku was wearing him down. I doubt a Sith Knight cares that much about his master's plans beyond how it can benefit himself. Self sacrifice is a very unlikely behavior for a Sith and the Death Star plans had nothing to do with his retreat.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-12-18 08:08pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:The blurry, green helicopter of death scene from AOTC only scratches the surface of what he is capable of.

Where's your canonical reference for this?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-12-18 08:55pm

May I remind all and sundry that according to George Lucas, Mace Windu is supposed to be the best swordsman in the Jedi Order? And that Qui Gon Jin was supposed to be one of the best swordsman in the Order?

Frankly, if we go by canon film, I give it to either Obiwan in OT or Qui Gon.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-18 09:12pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:Yoda was wearing Dooku down faster than Dooku was wearing him down. I doubt a Sith Knight cares that much about his master's plans beyond how it can benefit himself. Self sacrifice is a very unlikely behavior for a Sith and the Death Star plans had nothing to do with his retreat.

Nonsense; that battle was a total strategic and tactical victory for the Count of Sorenno.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 09:20pm

Dorsk 81 wrote:
Lazy Raptor wrote:The blurry, green helicopter of death scene from AOTC only scratches the surface of what he is capable of.
Where's your canonical reference for this?

It's in the sheer power and ability that Yoda displays, throughout the series. While my theory on his max potential comes largely from EU sources, it is backed up by the fact that in the movies, in terms of sheer power, the dark side has a clear advantage. The fact that Yoda can open up such can of good ol' fashioned whoop ass and casually go about his business while STILL being a light side Jedi is testament to his sheer power.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-12-18 09:30pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:
Dorsk 81 wrote:
Lazy Raptor wrote:The blurry, green helicopter of death scene from AOTC only scratches the surface of what he is capable of.
Where's your canonical reference for this?
It's in the sheer power and ability that Yoda displays, throughout the series. While my theory on his max potential comes largely from EU sources, it is backed up by the fact that in the movies, in terms of sheer power, the dark side has a clear advantage. The fact that Yoda can open up such can of good ol' fashioned whoop ass and casually go about his business while STILL being a light side Jedi is testament to his sheer power.

And he didn't use this "sheer power" during the battle to stop Doku, which would have prevented the Clone War, saved the Jedi, saved millions of lives, prevented another war, saved more lives, etc because...?
Oh and also, this is about Swordsmanship, not power.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 09:41pm

Yoda's limitations are those he imposes on himself with his adherence to the Jedi Code. Without tapping into and possibly contaminating himself with the icky dark side he'll never realize his full power. I admit I have digressed a lot from the subject of swordsmanship skills...

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-12-18 09:51pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:Yoda's limitations are those he imposes on himself with his adherence to the Jedi Code. Without tapping into and possibly contaminating himself with the icky dark side he'll never realize his full power.

Even if this weren't off topic...
You're saying that the Dark Side is more powerful than the light which we know to be bullshit from Yoda in ESB.
Where's your cannon evidence that the Jedi Code restrictive enough to make the Dark side more powerful in combat? You have none because it's not true.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 09:58pm

Don't things observed on screen carry more weight than those said on screen? Both affinities draw power from the Force right? "Is the Dark Side stronger?" "No, quicker, easier, more seductive." If both sides draw of the same energy source doesn't the side that can access and manipulate that energy faster and more readily have a clear advantage?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-18 10:01pm

That still doesn't mean that it's stronger.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-12-18 10:03pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:Don't things observed on screen carry more weight than those said on screen? Both affinities draw power from the Force right? "Is the Dark Side stronger?" "No, quicker, easier, more seductive." If both sides draw of the same energy source doesn't the side that can access and manipulate that energy faster and more readily have a clear advantage?

Are you touched?

"Is the Dark Side stronger?" "No..."

And that is CANNON. Not the (sometimes) contradictory EU stuff. The Dark Side is not stronger. End of debate.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-18 10:13pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:That still doesn't mean that it's stronger.

I've never seen such matter-of-fact discarding of absolute movie canon evidence, ever.

You understand the concept of credulence, right? Unless you have a good reason to suggest otherwise, we should take things at face value. Do you have a compelling reason to twist movie canon that isn't your wishes or the intents of secondary sources?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-18 10:15pm

What?

But it isn't stronger, just easier. If some interpret that as meaning it's stronger, that's not my problem.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 10:18pm

Two rifles. Same caliber bullets with identical destructive capabilities.
One's a bolt-action, the other's an automatic. Hmm...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-18 10:20pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:Two rifles. Same caliber bullets with identical destructive capabilities.
One's a bolt-action, the other's an automatic. Hmm...

And? That's the stupidest analogy I've heard. That just shows that one is merely easier, not stronger.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-12-18 10:22pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:Two rifles. Same caliber bullets with identical destructive capabilities.
One's a bolt-action, the other's an automatic. Hmm...

So you're saying that hatred, anger and fear are the same as compassion and peace? Hmm....

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 10:25pm

Okay okay, we're tripping over our definitions. I am saying the dark side is "stronger" in the sense that it is better, more efficient, refined and sophisticated. I was talking strength in terms of Darwinian fitness. If strength is to mean raw power yield and that alone, I have no argument.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 10:29pm

Dorsk 81 wrote:
Lazy Raptor wrote:Two rifles. Same caliber bullets with identical destructive capabilities.
One's a bolt-action, the other's an automatic. Hmm...
So you're saying that hatred, anger and fear are the same as compassion and peace? Hmm....

The morality of Force manipulation is an entirely seperate issue, and one I think is an entirely artificial construction of the Jedi Order. Whether you like the NJO or not, it does give some startling insight into the nature of the Force.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-12-18 10:30pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:Okay okay, we're tripping over our definitions. I am saying the dark side is "stronger" in the sense that it is better, more efficient, refined and sophisticated.

WTF?! The Dark side is RAW anger, aggression, hate, fear!! RAW emotion!!! Thats refined?! Yea, ok...

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Best canon Swordsman.

Who is the most skilled Canon Swordsman?

Best canon Swordsman.