AT-AT's in battle of Endor

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2003-12-21 04:01am

I just finished watching the battle of endor and I couldn't help but think, if the Empire had replaced their AT-ST's with AT-AT's near the rear bunker what would have changed? certain victory for the empire? or rebellion? or same result?

I have some interesting quotes here.
From the starwars technical manual
"An advanced gyro system maintains balance, although the unit iis susceptible to damage or collapse. While the AT-ST is ecellent on open ground, it can be slowed or even dangerously unbalanced by dense foliage, uneven terrain, or hidden traps." AT-ST

Now, I flip the page to AT-At
"While the empire had countless repulsorlift vehicles, drive systems could be foiled by gravity fluncutations, unusual planetary magnetic fields, and other special conditions; the Emprie needed a vehicle which could be used on any terrain on millions of different worlds."

No hint of problems in that quote, or for the rest of the description.
So I don't think those trees or those log traps would be an issue,

the logs would either snap like match sticks, or the 4 legs of the walker would make them immune to such traps.

Any comments?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-21 04:21am

Their mobility would be practically reduced to zero, and their weapons would be rather ineffective at such a close range (ie, virtually underneath them).

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2003-12-21 04:41am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Their mobility would be practically reduced to zero, and their weapons would be rather ineffective at such a close range (ie, virtually underneath them).

It would be harder to target individual pockets of ewoks and rebels, but how would they ever stop them?

Say 5 Imperial walkers? each covering each others flanks

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-21 04:45am

I think having one AT-AT in such a restrictive area is almost pushing it. There's no way in hell that you could get five in there...

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-12-21 06:34am

Where was that AT-AT we see earlier during the battle?

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-12-21 07:09am

Gandalf wrote:Where was that AT-AT we see earlier during the battle?

Others say that it was unable to reach the rear entrance. However I cannot imagine any trees stopping an AT-AT, so my opinion is that that it was far away from the base searching for Luke's companions. (Remember Vader's order.)

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-12-21 07:10am

"An advanced gyro system maintains balance, although the unit iis susceptible to damage or collapse. While the AT-ST is ecellent on open ground, it can be slowed or even dangerously unbalanced by dense foliage, uneven terrain, or hidden traps." AT-ST

Obviously this refers to Endor, but I think it reflects it wrong. The AT-ST caught in the log trap displayed excellent balance, better than most humans would have in a similar situation.

As for the AT-AT, it would have been useless. While the rebels and the Ewoks couldn't hurt it in any way, it also couldn't do anything to prevent the bunker from being infiltrated, nor could it find anything to fire at. If the bunker had been placed on a plain, it would be different. It's an axiom that armored vehicles perform best in open terrain. But then it wouldn't have been a secret, would it..

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-21 03:07pm

Gandalf wrote:Where was that AT-AT we see earlier during the battle?

The only AT-AT we see was stomping around the landing area where Skywalker was delivered. There were none on the battle for the simple reason that the terrain makes it impossible to get an AT-AT into the forest.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2003-12-21 04:25pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Gandalf wrote:Where was that AT-AT we see earlier during the battle?
The only AT-AT we see was stomping around the landing area where Skywalker was delivered. There were none on the battle for the simple reason that the terrain makes it impossible to get an AT-AT into the forest.

AT-AT's could just carpet 'bomb' an area with blaster fire and just basically walk where it wanted. The large lasers on the chin are more of a seige weapon, but the fast targetting smaller lasers on the side of the head would be able to target individual groups or even ewoks

If you had AT-AT's in there, I don't see why they couldn't just put a sustained fire right into the forrest, starting fires and enough blast damage to knock-out or kill the unprotected ewoks.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-21 05:23pm

The Battle of Endor is virtually a case study in Imperial arrogance, remember they didn't even know about the Ewoks. "An entire legion of my best troops awaits them!" They thought all they would be dealing with were a handfull of Rebel commandos armed with nothing heavier than a blaster rifle. They had no idea the entire forest would come alive and turn on them! By this reckoning they probably thought the scout walker squadron was overkill, and an AT-AT just wasn't practical.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-21 09:51pm

AT-AT's could just carpet 'bomb' an area with blaster fire and just basically walk where it wanted. The large lasers on the chin are more of a seige weapon, but the fast targetting smaller lasers on the side of the head would be able to target individual groups or even ewoks

If you had AT-AT's in there, I don't see why they couldn't just put a sustained fire right into the forrest, starting fires and enough blast damage to knock-out or kill the unprotected ewoks.

The problem you fucking moron is that the AT-AT simply can't cross the terrain around the back door. That's why they weren't present you idiot.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-12-21 11:55pm

Omega-13 wrote: AT-AT's could just carpet 'bomb' an area with blaster fire and just basically walk where it wanted. The large lasers on the chin are more of a seige weapon, but the fast targetting smaller lasers on the side of the head would be able to target individual groups or even ewoks

If you had AT-AT's in there, I don't see why they couldn't just put a sustained fire right into the forrest, starting fires and enough blast damage to knock-out or kill the unprotected ewoks.

If you look at the damage that they seem to have done to the snow on Hoth, assuming the same characteristics as Redwoods on Earth, they would have a hard time clearing trees. Redwoods are very fire resistant.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-12-22 12:03am

Omega-13 wrote:AT-AT's could just carpet 'bomb' an area with blaster fire and just basically walk where it wanted. The large lasers on the chin are more of a seige weapon, but the fast targetting smaller lasers on the side of the head would be able to target individual groups or even ewoks

If you had AT-AT's in there, I don't see why they couldn't just put a sustained fire right into the forrest, starting fires and enough blast damage to knock-out or kill the unprotected ewoks.

As Stormbringer pointed out, the AT-AT wasn't there in the first place because the terrain wasn't suitable. Secondly, that sort of environmental destruction would only come into play when the Imperial bunker commander realized the rebels were winning, which was after the battle was over. Might just as well ask why they didn't carpet bomb the entirety of Endor just to be on the safe side.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-12-22 12:55am

Kitsune wrote:If you look at the damage that they seem to have done to the snow on Hoth, assuming the same characteristics as Redwoods on Earth, they would have a hard time clearing trees. Redwoods are very fire resistant.

The little apparent damage to snow at Hoth is most probably a matter of practicality. After all, it wouldn't do the Imperials much good to make the terrain impossible for the AT-ATs to cross, would it?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-12-22 10:00am

We should consider the canon novelisation, where the Imperial commander who handed over Luke skywalker asked and received permission to concentrate his patrols in the region where Luke was found. Its possible that the AT-AT was in that region, and in the general perimeter alert that occured afterwards, just didn't travel to the rear bunker.

Considering the AT-AT mass, it might have been possible for it to have bulldozed its way through the forest. Too bad for anyone underfoot though.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-12-22 03:33pm

Maybe the AT-AT could have bulldozed through the forest, but I doubt it. Those trees were fucking huge. Firepower issues aside, those trees wold have had very high inertia, and with their roots digging into the ground, I'm not convinced the AT-AT could plow through.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-12-22 08:55pm

If we agree that there was one or more AT-AT's present, what happened to them afterwards?

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2003-12-22 09:05pm

Lord Pounder wrote:If we agree that there was one or more AT-AT's present, what happened to them afterwards?

Scuttled by their commanders or were surronded and destroyed. If the Imperials did surrender some Commissar level loyalty looney would blow up the things. I'd like to know when the Imperial Army Commander gave up though.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-22 09:07pm

Lord Pounder wrote:If we agree that there was one or more AT-AT's present, what happened to them afterwards?

That depends what you mean by present. It's clear they had them on Endor, we see one. It's just the terrain around the rear of the bunker meant they couldn't actually get them into the area.

As for what happened to it, it was probably surrendered along with the rest of the garrison there that didn't surrender.

SecondStorm · Post by **SecondStorm** » 2003-12-22 09:46pm

Captain Lennox wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:If we agree that there was one or more AT-AT's present, what happened to them afterwards?
Scuttled by their commanders or were surronded and destroyed. If the Imperials did surrender some Commissar level loyalty looney would blow up the things. I'd like to know when the Imperial Army Commander gave up though.

Whats a "Commissar level loyalty looney"?
IIRC a Commissar is not a rank in the Imperial Army.

Is it a Commissar from the Imperial Guard from Warhammer 40k perhaps?(Remember not everyone got familiar knowledge of the 40k-verse

)

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-22 09:55pm

Captain Lennox wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:If we agree that there was one or more AT-AT's present, what happened to them afterwards?
Scuttled by their commanders or were surronded and destroyed. If the Imperials did surrender some Commissar level loyalty looney would blow up the things. I'd like to know when the Imperial Army Commander gave up though.

Actually, the Imperial garrison on Endor surrendered after the space battle was decided. They obviously didn't have enough in the way of defensive arms to put up a worthwhile fight and the Rebels could have simply slagged them all from orbit.

Giving up makes sense.

SecondStorm wrote:Whats a "Commissar level loyalty looney"?
IIRC a Commissar is not a rank in the Imperial Army.

No, but the Empire had it's political watchdogs none the less.

SecondStorm wrote:Is it a Commissar from the Imperial Guard from Warhammer 40k perhaps?(Remember not everyone got familiar knowledge of the 40k-verse )

It's actually from history there have been any number of armies with political watchdogs sent along and given actual authority. The most famous example being the Soviet Union.

But yes, 40K does have Commisars.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-12-23 11:06am

Lord Pounder wrote:If we agree that there was one or more AT-AT's present, what happened to them afterwards?

Probably ended up as legs on Nomad City.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-12-23 11:15am

Stormbringer wrote:

Actually, the Imperial garrison on Endor surrendered after the space battle was decided. They obviously didn't have enough in the way of defensive arms to put up a worthwhile fight and the Rebels could have simply slagged them all from orbit.

Giving up makes sense.

Really? The Truce at Bakura sourcebook states that the Empire evacuated its garrison. Where did you get this info from?

Darth Yoshi wrote:Maybe the AT-AT could have bulldozed through the forest, but I doubt it. Those trees were fucking huge. Firepower issues aside, those trees wold have had very high inertia, and with their roots digging into the ground, I'm not convinced the AT-AT could plow through.

Its feet alone weighed a ton. Add 60 kph.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-12-23 12:33pm

Okay folks.. we have to think here of the beast the AT-AT was based on for the film, the elephant.

Yes, an elephant can live and move freely in a forest, as long as the trees are widely spaced. And yes, an elephant can knock over trees... but think of any film of an elephant doing so, you'll see that the tree is usually not even the diameter of the elephant's leg. The elephant lines his forehead up with the tree and then uses his legs to push against it, plowing the young tree over.

Now... look at the AT-AT, compared to most of the trees seen on Endor. In order to follow the Elephant's analogy, the AT-AT would only be able to knock over the smaller diameter trees, using its legs to apply the pressure to shove the tree over. There is one problem here. Unlike the elephant, the AT-AT has a neck.

What does this have to do with it? Simple. In the case of the elephant, no neck means that all the pressure transfers directly from legs to shoulders to head. For the AT-AT, that pressure would have to transfer from legs to shoulders... and then across the thin, bendable neck to the head. The neck is a weak link here, where the pressure needed to push over the tree may cause damage, or even break it.

There's also the whole question of whether or not the AT-AT's head could lower itself so that the flat of the head or forehead is against the tree, as with the Elephant. Trying to push the tree over with the AT-AT's nose would damage the 'chin' gun, as well as possibly the 'cheek' turrents.

So, in my opinion, the AT-AT would have been only used in the most open areas of the planet.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-12-23 12:40pm

We hear of AT-ATs traveling through forest in Spectre of the Past basically it just blows apart obsticals before they even become a problem.
You see a tree thats going to be in the way. Boom! Blast it to pieces.