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I guess this is a roundabout way of asking was Anakin's fall really Obi-wan's fault? Is the Jedi Coucil to blame? Or was his fall just the way that this were meant to happen.

1. Had Qui-gon lived would Anakin still have fallen to the Dark?

2. How about a different master?

3. How the hell did no one find out or confront Anakin about the Tusken raider massacre? All the signs were their.


Personally I think that Qui-gon could have prevent Anakin from wigging out. He was far healther approach to delling with your emotions. That and in TPM its clear the the to of them had bonded in a way that Anakin and Obi-wan never did.

You really have to wonder why if Mace believes that Annie is the chosen one why did he not train him; or since Yoda is so concerned why did he not take on Anakin as his padawan. Really one of the Jedi council should have mentored him, not a freshly mint and unqualified jedi knight (Obi never took the trials).

Apparently the Jedi don't conduct after action reviews, or check members for mental disorders.

Opinions? Speculation, etc.

My guess is that Anakin kept the darkness within well hidden, perhaps even from himself. But seeing Padame again destroyed all the blocks he had. Unfortunately by then the Clone Wars was kicking off and The Council had more pressing matters to concern themselves with.

Spartan wrote:I guess this is a roundabout way of asking was Anakin's fall really Obi-wan's fault? Is the Jedi Coucil to blame? Or was his fall just the way that this were meant to happen.

AOTC seems to make it Obi-wan's fault, which to my mind falls into contradiction of the OT where Obi-wan intimated to Luke that he and Anakin were the best of friends.

Spartan wrote:1. Had Qui-gon lived would Anakin still have fallen to the Dark?

Possibly. Qui-gon seemed more independent than Obi-wan, who seems more dutiful. It's possible that the former would have developed a more intimate connection with Anakin than the latter, who seemed in AOTC to be more annoyed at Anakin than understanding and patient. (understandable, Anakin was acting like a prick)

Spartan wrote:2. How about a different master?

Like who? Yoda? Mace?

If Yoda, Anakin would have been taught better than under Obi-wan, who says as much to Luke in ROTJ.

Spartan wrote:3. How the hell did no one find out or confront Anakin about the Tusken raider massacre? All the signs were there.

Because the war happened directly afterwards, and in the insanity that followed it's possible it slipped their mind. Or, in another way to look at it, in war atrocity's are committed - it's possible that some were overlooked to tackle the bigger ones (let's face it, who cares about some clan of Tusken raiders when you have people who can BDZ a planet? What about the Dark Jedi on Bpfassh?)

Spartan wrote:Personally I think that Qui-gon could have prevent Anakin from wigging out. He was far healther approach to delling with your emotions. That and in TPM its clear the the to of them had bonded in a way that Anakin and Obi-wan never did.

Agreed. The antagonism between the two seemed remarkably contrived to my eyes, and I can't reconcile it with the fact that Alec Guiness later says they were the best of friends. They sure don't act it.

Spartan wrote:You really have to wonder why if Mace believes that Annie is the chosen one why did he not train him; or since Yoda is so concerned why did he not take on Anakin as his padawan. Really one of the Jedi council should have mentored him, not a freshly mint and unqualified jedi knight (Obi never took the trials).

Rewatch TPM. The council specifically forbids Qui-gon to train Anakin, citing that he is too old as an excuse. The buck stops with the Council, who were more experienced than Obi-wan. They should have trained Anakin, but didn't. Blame them.

Actually, Anakin relationship to Obiwan looks rather fatherly, don't you think?

We do know that Obiwan approval is important to Anakin, and they joke and poke fun at each other when Anakin mention saving Obiwan in the elevator. He also apparently shared the emotions about his dreams to Obiwan before, only to have Obiwan reject him travelling to Tatooine to look for his mom.

To Obiwan, Anakin probably appeared to be undergoing the rebellious teen phase.

PainRack wrote:Actually, Anakin relationship to Obiwan looks rather fatherly, don't you think? et cetera

That's exactly what it looks like and I agree with you; my problem is that it wasn't what I was expecting or even hoping for. Much to my dismay.

The way I read it from the OT, I thought they were friends first, which makes the fall more tragic. Afterall, Anakin was acting like a brat in AOTC, and the antagonism between the two outweighed the affection. I'm half-expecting Obi-wan to say aloud "...And good riddance!" at the end of their duel in episode 3.

Stofsk wrote:

PainRack wrote:Actually, Anakin relationship to Obiwan looks rather fatherly, don't you think? et cetera

That's exactly what it looks like and I agree with you; my problem is that it wasn't what I was expecting or even hoping for. Much to my dismay.

The way I read it from the OT, I thought they were friends first, which makes the fall more tragic. Afterall, Anakin was acting like a brat in AOTC, and the antagonism between the two outweighed the affection. I'm half-expecting Obi-wan to say aloud "...And good riddance!" at the end of their duel in episode 3.

Bit is not really like Ben could tell Luke that. Luke your father was a great pilot a skilled jedi but a prat a complete and utter brat.

I would wonder, though, how that would affect Luke, to hear Ben say something to that effect: (Ben=Red Luke= blue C3P0=yellow)

"Luke, I won't lie to you, no matter your point of view, your father was a prick. and that's it. I should have forseen his fall to the darkside. It WAS obvious, his lust for power, for the quick, easy path, I should have seen it. So, we got into a fight one day, and I knocked his spoiled ass into some lava. I thought he was dead, and the galaxy would be better off if he was. Certainly the Jedi would. Plus, you'd have probably lived a happy life under the protection of the Jedi council who would have seen you were properly trained in the ways of the Jedi. Oh, and you'd know your sister."

"MY WH-"

"Hush. I'm not done. as it stands, you'll most likely be killed."

"BUT I jus-"

"No, hear me out. What I'm going to do is train you in the ways of the force for a few days, okay? I was a complete and utter failure with Anakin-That's your father. But, I'm SURE I'll get it this time."

"You know what? You really are a nutbag, Old Man! Screw you! I'm going back to moisture farming."

"Luke, you Cannot deny your destiny."

"SURE I can! Check it out: Piss off. See how easy that was? Fucking nut."

"Luke, if you leave you'll be-"

"BZZT! Sorry, I need to get to anchorhead, nutbag. you need a ride?"

*sigh* "No. You know, you really are as bad as-"

"BZZT! Remember the part about pissing off? Yeah, just do that next time you need to speak. '3P0, we're outta here."

"Yes, Mahstah luke."

"Punk bitch."

You know that's the problem that I had with the Prequals as well. Aside from the Midiclorian? the virgin birth, and 10 year old annie (shudder ). Obi-wan and Anakin are just to far apart in age. When Obi-wan said in ANH that Anakin was already a great pilot, when he met him; I had always assumed that he meant that he was a top fighter pilot during the clone wars. And that they met during the CW and becam fast friends.

If the Jedi Order allowed people to be honest with their feelings, then yes, his fall could have been prevented.


I also don't see why Anakin didn'd rescue his mother far sooner. Surely thehy had time for one short trip out to Tatooine?

Stofsk wrote:

PainRack wrote:Actually, Anakin relationship to Obiwan looks rather fatherly, don't you think? et cetera

That's exactly what it looks like and I agree with you; my problem is that it wasn't what I was expecting or even hoping for. Much to my dismay.

The way I read it from the OT, I thought they were friends first, which makes the fall more tragic. Afterall, Anakin was acting like a brat in AOTC, and the antagonism between the two outweighed the affection. I'm half-expecting Obi-wan to say aloud "...And good riddance!" at the end of their duel in episode 3.

I don't know. I recall reading something about how "macho" friendships are along that line, and certainly, a lot of my best friendships are in a similar manner.
The old "Hate them, can't live without them" cliche comes to mind. hell, if you really, really really didn't like him at all(Obiwan), why on earth would you put up with his antics? Sigh at his recklessness? For Anakin, can you imagine him enduring the speeches Obiwan gives, or even making an apology in that bar if he didn't love Obiwan as well?