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Now that it seems that the NJO has ended what has happened to the Empire? Currently what are its fleet strenght and size?

Well, it's difficult to fully know. But here it goes...

First, we can get an idea of the Remnant's early-NJO status thanks to the Hand of Thrawn duology..

* 8 sectors consisting of thousands of systems.

* A navy of 200 Star Destroyers - ISD's, VSD's and one SSD (Destiny's Way; how the Empire was able to afford it is beyond me. We know it's not the Reaper or Pride of Yetheva, so God only knows...).

We know that Moffs were unwilling to ally with the Galactic Alliance, even after Ithor and the attack on Bastion (due to a combination of fear, old hostilities, and ego).

We can also assume that the Vong's surprise attack on the Remnant cost them heavily not just in manpower, but ships too. We know that the Chimerea was destroyed and I'm also willing to assume that the unamed SSD that we saw in 'Destiny's Way' was also destroyed, since it wasn't seen again in the renmaining NJO books.

Now, in the final push to retake Coruscant, the Galactic Alliance took heavy losses: 300 capital ships and 11,000 fighters. How many of these were Imperial is left to the imagination. We do however know that Pellaeon's personal flotilla survived and was responsible for several major enemy kills during that final battle.

Needles to say, it's safe to assume that Pellaeon is making sure the Imperial Fleet is back up and running ASAP.

Well the Imperial Remnants controls a small portion in the outer rim. Despites being small it still has powerful planets such as Bastion(Capital of the Remnants), Muunilinst(Main money planet, once controlled by the Inter-Galactic Banking Clan and has huge factories along with tons of money), and Yaga Minor(Main ship building planet which is said to be one of the last jewels in the Empire's crown. It also has on of the most sophisticated databases in the Galaxy). As for the Imperial Fleet, it still has thousands of capital ships along with thousands upon thousands of fighters. However, the Imperial Remnants is able to defend itself from large foes but is not in any condition to be on the offensive. In the time of the NJO the Remnants had teamed up with the New Republic to fight the YV, but pulled back when a portion of that fleet was destroyed. But the Remnants is not even close to the Galactic Empire but is still a good empire which Pellaeon has made very close to the New Republic.

While the Imperial Remnant maintained many of the trappings of Palpatine's regime -- a strong military and limited venues of public expression -- it was far more progressive and devoid of the rampant injustices found during the height of the Empire's power. Slavery was abolished as were the extremes of anti-alien sentiment. The Imperial Remnant unobtrusively continued adhering to the strict tenets of the New Order, growing increasingly irrelevant to galactic affairs.

During the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, Pellaeon recognized the threat the alien menace posed, even though their incursion had skirted past Imperial space. Despite some protests from the Moff Council, Pellaeon committed his forces to a joint Imperial-New Republic offensive at the Battles of Garqi and Ithor. Despite the best efforts of Pellaeon and New Republic Admiral Traest Kre'fey, the Yuuzhan Vong destroyed the ecology of Ithor. Shocked by the power of the attack, the Imperial Remnant recalled their assistance of the New Republic, and chose instead to sit out the invasion on the sidelines.

It was a move the Moff Council would come to regret. They falsely believed the Imperial Remnant safe from attack, since it had been ignored for much of the invasion. The Yuuzhan Vong proved that assumption wrong, when it brutally attacked the Imperial worlds. Pellaeon was critically wounded in the attack, but the sudden arrival of a Jedi mission exploring the Unknown Regions saved his life. Jedi healers stabilized Pellaeon's condition, and Luke Skywalker and Jacen Solo helped Pellaeon expose infiltrators in the Imperial ranks and refocus Imperial efforts to assist the newly founded Galactic Federation of Free Alliances.

-StarWars.com

Personally, I love the Remnants

I would be willing to bet the Imperial Remnant has several SSDs. How many were built, and of those, how many are accounted for? It would appear that an Executor class command ship is not quite as massive an undertaking as some would have us believe. Formidable or not, there seems to be practicality arguments concerning the SSD, and the NR Defense Force doesn't seem prone to operating and maintaining such massive ships. The beaurocracy would never tolerate so much overhead if an SSD is such a titanic drain of resources. And yet, they had at least two. Granted maintaing a ship is not as expensive as building one, but late in the NJO, SSDs are referred to almost casually. Such familiarity would seem undue if they were really such a rarity in the Galaxy.

Remember Han's line from ROTJ: "Now don't get jittery, Luke. There are a lot of command ships."

Unlike the EU, which wants us to believe that there were only few SSDs in the galaxy, the movies suggest the opposite.

Oberleutnant wrote:Remember Han's line from ROTJ: "Now don't get jittery, Luke. There are a lot of command ships."

Unlike the EU, which wants us to believe that there were only few SSDs in the galaxy, the movies suggest the opposite.

Yeah, I don't like this EU minimalist shit too.

When your territory and fleet has been reduced to less then 1% of what it had been 20 years prior, having a single SSD is not unrealistic. Before the IR signed a treaty with the NR they couldn't even afford to build new ISDs because they were spending all their money on keeping the current ones working and doing repairs. Since they had the peace treaty the IR could finaly begin to expand their little empire further. I would expect they had 50-100 more ISDs by the time the Vong attacks and that they had maybe 2-3 SSDs to serve as fleet flagships.

Oberleutnant wrote:Remember Han's line from ROTJ: "Now don't get jittery, Luke. There are a lot of command ships."

Unlike the EU, which wants us to believe that there were only few SSDs in the galaxy, the movies suggest the opposite.

A command ship doesn't have to be an SSD, though. But it is worth to note that none of the rebels in TESB and ROTJ are surprised to see the Executor, even though they don't know it's Vader's ship.

Alyeska wrote:When your territory and fleet has been reduced to less then 1% of what it had been 20 years prior, having a single SSD is not unrealistic. Before the IR signed a treaty with the NR they couldn't even afford to build new ISDs because they were spending all their money on keeping the current ones working and doing repairs. Since they had the peace treaty the IR could finaly begin to expand their little empire further. I would expect they had 50-100 more ISDs by the time the Vong attacks and that they had maybe 2-3 SSDs to serve as fleet flagships.

No, the Hand of Thrawn duology states that the Empire doesn't have its own dedicated starfighter manufacturing lines because they were too busy building capital ships.

That suggest a very active capital shipbuilding programme at least.

PainRack wrote:

Alyeska wrote:When your territory and fleet has been reduced to less then 1% of what it had been 20 years prior, having a single SSD is not unrealistic. Before the IR signed a treaty with the NR they couldn't even afford to build new ISDs because they were spending all their money on keeping the current ones working and doing repairs. Since they had the peace treaty the IR could finaly begin to expand their little empire further. I would expect they had 50-100 more ISDs by the time the Vong attacks and that they had maybe 2-3 SSDs to serve as fleet flagships.

No, the Hand of Thrawn duology states that the Empire doesn't have its own dedicated starfighter manufacturing lines because they were too busy building capital ships.

That suggest a very active capital shipbuilding programme at least.

I thought those were mostly busy with smaller ships and repairing of ISDs. That was the indication I got. Since the IR was constantly being knocked on by just about everyone else, I don't see how they could have been expanding the fleet very much if any.

nightmare wrote: A command ship doesn't have to be an SSD, though. But it is worth to note that none of the rebels in TESB and ROTJ are surprised to see the Executor, even though they don't know it's Vader's ship.

Depends if you're talking in terms of ship type, or just combat role. If you're refering to type, "command ship" specifically refers to the SSD. That exchange in ROTJ would have me believe they were refering to the Executor in terms of type as well.

PainRack wrote:

Alyeska wrote:When your territory and fleet has been reduced to less then 1% of what it had been 20 years prior, having a single SSD is not unrealistic. Before the IR signed a treaty with the NR they couldn't even afford to build new ISDs because they were spending all their money on keeping the current ones working and doing repairs. Since they had the peace treaty the IR could finaly begin to expand their little empire further. I would expect they had 50-100 more ISDs by the time the Vong attacks and that they had maybe 2-3 SSDs to serve as fleet flagships.

No, the Hand of Thrawn duology states that the Empire doesn't have its own dedicated starfighter manufacturing lines because they were too busy building capital ships.

That suggest a very active capital shipbuilding programme at least.

Ah, but remember that the HoT duology takes place seven years before 'Vector Prime'. The Remnant surely was able to build several more fighter-based shipyards, especially given that they were using Tie Defenders during the final stages of the NJO.

Oberleutnant wrote:Remember Han's line from ROTJ: "Now don't get jittery, Luke. There are a lot of command ships."

Unlike the EU, which wants us to believe that there were only few SSDs in the galaxy, the movies suggest the opposite.

Keep in mind that in and of itself isn't definitive by any means. Han was specfically trying to calm Luke and it always struck me as being a rather half hearted reassurance at that. It's entirely possible that Han stretched the truth to keep everyone's nerves up.


And of course the later puapacy of Executors doesn't mean too much about how common they were in the Imperial Period. We don't know how common they were as command ships (a rather limited demand); with all the other big guns out they could still be relatively rare. A lot of them got tied up in the Deep Core with the clones and the rest winding up in the hands of Warlords that lost them during the infighting like they did so many Imperial-class Stardestroyers. The EU could be right in that an intact ESD is a rare sight.

nightmare wrote:

Oberleutnant wrote:Remember Han's line from ROTJ: "Now don't get jittery, Luke. There are a lot of command ships."

Unlike the EU, which wants us to believe that there were only few SSDs in the galaxy, the movies suggest the opposite.

A command ship doesn't have to be an SSD, though.

It wouldn't make much sense for Han to reassure Luke and the others if the other command ships were all of a totally different class. Han could well have stretched the truth about how common Executors really were, but I rather doubt he would flat out spout something that was a definite lie.

nightmare wrote:But it is worth to note that none of the rebels in TESB and ROTJ are surprised to see the Executor, even though they don't know it's Vader's ship.

Actually, they probably did know in TESB.

And in ROTJ it's obvious they expect a command ship and an Executor would make sense enough given the Emperor was present.

Alyeska wrote:

PainRack wrote:

Alyeska wrote:When your territory and fleet has been reduced to less then 1% of what it had been 20 years prior, having a single SSD is not unrealistic. Before the IR signed a treaty with the NR they couldn't even afford to build new ISDs because they were spending all their money on keeping the current ones working and doing repairs. Since they had the peace treaty the IR could finaly begin to expand their little empire further. I would expect they had 50-100 more ISDs by the time the Vong attacks and that they had maybe 2-3 SSDs to serve as fleet flagships.

No, the Hand of Thrawn duology states that the Empire doesn't have its own dedicated starfighter manufacturing lines because they were too busy building capital ships.

That suggest a very active capital shipbuilding programme at least.

I thought those were mostly busy with smaller ships and repairing of ISDs. That was the indication I got. Since the IR was constantly being knocked on by just about everyone else, I don't see how they could have been expanding the fleet very much if any.

Except that it is stated clearly in the quote that Imperial manufacturing facillities were stretched building capital ships.

Furthermore, just because they were being knocked on by everyone else does not indicate they can't produce cap ships. Look at Britain for an example. She increased the number of ships in all classes save for Fleet aircraft carriers during WWII.

Stormbringer wrote:
And of course the later puapacy of Executors doesn't mean too much about how common they were in the Imperial Period. We don't know how common they were as command ships (a rather limited demand); with all the other big guns out they could still be relatively rare. A lot of them got tied up in the Deep Core with the clones and the rest winding up in the hands of Warlords that lost them during the infighting like they did so many Imperial-class Stardestroyers. The EU could be right in that an intact ESD is a rare sight.

Only if we compare Executors by the percentage of ships, as opposed to the more common view of numbers of Executors.

Stormbringer wrote:It wouldn't make much sense for Han to reassure Luke and the others if the other command ships were all of a totally different class. Han could well have stretched the truth about how common Executors really were, but I rather doubt he would flat out spout something that was a definite lie.

Although Han was notoriously lax with his statements, I agree with you that there's some truth in what he says. But I fail to see why his comment has to refer specifically to Executor-class vessels. In short, the Executor is a command ship. But is a command ship an Executor? The only agrument for this is that it is the only ship in the movies we hear referred to as a "command ship". But see below.

Stormbringer wrote:

nightmare wrote:But it is worth to note that none of the rebels in TESB and ROTJ are surprised to see the Executor, even though they don't know it's Vader's ship.

Actually, they probably did know in TESB.

Since Luke said "Vader's on that ship." in ROTJ, it doesn't seem like it.

This line is indicative of more SSDs in existance (which we know, but only by EU sources), since the Executor was present at Hoth. They should have realized it was Vader's ship - but if there's several others looking exactly like it, they couldn't tell short of matching it with a databank of known vessels, or perhaps read its energy signature with sensors or something like that. But not just by looking at it.

nightmare wrote: Although Han was notoriously lax with his statements, I agree with you that there's some truth in what he says. But I fail to see why his comment has to refer specifically to Executor-class vessels. In short, the Executor is a command ship. But is a command ship an Executor? The only agrument for this is that it is the only ship in the movies we hear referred to as a "command ship". But see below.

Stormbringer wrote:

nightmare wrote:But it is worth to note that none of the rebels in TESB and ROTJ are surprised to see the Executor, even though they don't know it's Vader's ship.

Actually, they probably did know in TESB.

Since Luke said "Vader's on that ship." in ROTJ, it doesn't seem like it.

This line is indicative of more SSDs in existance (which we know, but only by EU sources), since the Executor was present at Hoth. They should have realized it was Vader's ship - but if there's several others looking exactly like it, they couldn't tell short of matching it with a databank of known vessels, or perhaps read its energy signature with sensors or something like that. But not just by looking at it.

That's illogical. You're suggesting that Han statement does not refer to the Executor specifically, only because Han shouldn't have said that Vader isn't on that ship as he had no way to check.


Beside, according to some, the Executor in ROTJ is slightly different from the Executor in TESB in terms of bridge design as well as engine banks.

Beside, according to some, the Executor in ROTJ is slightly different from the Executor in TESB in terms of bridge design as well as engine banks.

Which brings the question, was it the real Executor that was at the battle of Endor or was it another. We know that there are many Command ships that are like the Executor.

IIRC, they built two Executors simultaneously. One was put into service, and the other was renamed Lusankya and buried under Coruscant by means unknown.

Bridge design and Engine could have changed during a repair or refit job, there was about a year between ESB and RotJ, enough time for it to be repaired.

Did anybody actually call the SSD at Endor Executor, or did is it assumed they're the same because Vader was on both?

that is an interesting point about how nobody ever did call it the Executor. They only called it the "command ship" and that was by the Emperor. But i am sure most people assume that it was the Executor becuase of Darth Vader. but if it was not the executor then what ship would it be. While it could be the Lusankya, it is unlikely. but all the "command ships" look the same

I've always assumed it was the Executor because it was captained by one Admiral Firmus Piett

Perhaps Admiral Piett simply commands any ship that Vader is on, and whoever is the current commander of the ship just stands aside. but i have thought about this question for at least a year.

We know that Vader had an entire fleet group under his command. The flagship was the Executor. Vader's fleet wasn't running normal Navy operations, but rather doing odd jobs like looking for Dark Jedi recruits and playing in Palpatine's grandiose traps. Also, it mentions the Executor by name in Shadows of the Empire I doubt Vader had a "garage full" of SSDs he could use interchangably. And it's kind of a leap of logic to assume Piett would change ships as well...

A "command ship" is a specific type of vessel, just like "cruiser," "destroyer," or "carrier." The Executor-class vessel is a command ship, and in addition to her speed, guns, and troop/fight carrying capacities, she is also fitted with C4I equipment to act as a mothership and coordination point for fleets and operations.

A "flagship" is a vessel where a "flag" is raised by a flag officer, ie., Admiral Firmus Piett.

Admiral Piett can raise his flag aboard any capital vessel of his choosing. It is the Executor's captain which is tied to the command of that vessel by assignment. Admiral Piett commands Death Squadron, and the *Sector Group deployment (?) at the Sanctuary Moon of Endor.

Since only certain models of vessel are equipped to be command ships, it can be considered likely that the vessel in reference is the Executor and her class, considering from the movie canon perspective, it is the only known Imperial Starfleet vessel typed as a command ship.

In any case, the comment doesn't really make any sense unless they mean Executor-class command ships. Han, ignorant of Jedi extra-sensory perception, believed Luke was jumping to the conclusion of Vader's presence because they sighted an Executor-class command ship, which Han tried to reassure Luke that there "are a lot of command ships." In other words, there are enough Executor-class command ships that one doesn't have to jump to conclude that the Executor-class command ship sighted was the Executor herself.

*Note: IIRC, the number of Imperial-class Star Destroyers at the Battle of Endor was 22. Plus the unconfirmed "communications ship" and the Executor herself, brings the fleet number to 24. This is the minimum Star Destroyer complement of a single Sector Group. I theorize that the combination of vessels at Endor, while not necessarily the local Sector Group, is a standard naval deployment of a Sector Group, substituting the larger communications ship and Executor for two of the Imperial-class Star Destroyers.