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I remember that the preface to my Return of the Jedi video used to have a preface of an interview with George Lucas, saying that he'd written nine starwars stories, and picked the middle three for the original trilogy. But recently two things have struck me, firstly I've read other stories where Lucas's friends said that there was originally one volume, and that one was turned into episode IV, and was supposed to have a sad ending (that was cut before filiming) untill it was a hit at the box office, after which it became a three volume story. The other thing that hit me was that, if the middle three are so good, then why the hell are the first three so bad (relativley)?

Anyone know?

maybe because george wrote the first one thinking nothing was gonna happen but when it was a success he ad libed the rest and got lucky wtih V and VI and the 20 year gap took its toll on his ability to come up with something new (note the time i am just a blithering blob so take it for what its worth)

Well, Lucas didn't know whether Episode IV would ever be a box office hit or not during filming. So the ending shown is obviously the ending he intended.

by first one i mean IV

The other thing that hit me was that, if the middle three are so good, then why the hell are the first three so bad (relativley)?

Well, there was a reason he made the middle three first. He's always said they were the strongest storywise.

That and George Lucas also was a better director then than he was now and cared more about the story than the bells and whistles. That and as has been noted he had actors that weren't over awed with him and added and helped fill out their characters, especially in the lines department. Basically everyone wasn't in awe of George the Great and they weren't yes men because of it.

Lucas just changed his mind over the years.

He wanted to make lots of movies, but he wasn't sure that SW would be a hit, so he wrote it to leave it open for a sequel but made it also work as a stand alone.

Then he said he'd make 9-12 films, then he didn't make any SW for 16 years, then he said only 6 films.

Now he's saying he was joking about making more than 6 and everybody just got the wrong idea (which is pure BS). He's either forgetful, or he's simply revising history.


Maybe the new DVD's due out next year will feature "Special Edition" interviews where it's been editing so he says that only 6 films will be made? ; )

To be honest, if the quality doesn't pick up in episode 3 I wouldn't want there to be another 3 sequels.

That said, I wonder what the original story was like before even ANH was made. Y'know, the original Mega-script which Lucas culled to make the OT.

starwarz.com has some of the early scripts (though not everything of course). Very different from what we end up seeing on screen.

It's interesting to notice parts from the early script which have resurfaced in the prequels, like the Bendu.

nightmare wrote:It's interesting to notice parts from the early script which have resurfaced in the prequels, like the Bendu.

Where were they mentioned in the PT? I may have missed it.

The word "Bendu" isn't mentioned in any of the films. He must be referring to a novel or screenplay or comic reference?

Stofsk wrote:

nightmare wrote:It's interesting to notice parts from the early script which have resurfaced in the prequels, like the Bendu.

Where were they mentioned in the PT? I may have missed it.

The starfighter Obiwan piloted? There's a symbol that looks like the Empire on it. According to Saxton, that's a Bendu numerology symbol that the Emperor corrupted( thus again protraying the Emperor as Hitler once again)


It should be interesting to compare how the story of Star Wars are similar to the stories of Valkryies and other Germanic operatic epics, considering the bent towards comparing Hitler to Palpy.

Oh, sort of like "Stormtroopers?"

Kurgan wrote:Oh, sort of like "Stormtroopers?"

Yes. Precisely.

Stormbringer wrote: That and George Lucas also was a better director then than he was now and cared more about the story than the bells and whistles. That and as has been noted he had actors that weren't over awed with him and added and helped fill out their characters, especially in the lines department. Basically everyone wasn't in awe of George the Great and they weren't yes men because of it.

He also had a much more talented team back then (Irvin Kershner and Gary Kurtz) and he wasn't micro-managing everything. Remember, Lucas didn't even direct Episodes 5 and 6 and it wasn't until later that the whole Star Wars success went to his head and he insisted on personally controlling every aspect of it no matter how small.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:Oh, sort of like "Stormtroopers?"

Yes. Precisely.

Stormtroopers.
Palpatine apparently manipulated the "engines of commerce" in the ANH preface, same as how Hitler maniuplated industry bigwigs to gather funds for his Nuremburg rallies.
Palpatine took dictatorial power in response to a threat to the Republic. Hitler took dictatorial power in response to a threat to the Republic.
Palpatine
Palpatine became "Chancellor" and his public platform was to clean up the corruption within the Republic. One of Hitler platform was also to clean up the internal "corruption" within the Republic.

Palpatine has more in common with Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus (colloquially Caesar Augustus), than Adolph Hitler, as Publius I believe has illustrated several times prior.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Palpatine has more in common with Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus (colloquially Caesar Augustus), than Adolph Hitler, as Publius I believe has illustrated several times prior.

I always believed Palpatine to have more in common with Gaius Julius Caesar than Octavian, in turn.

Then again - Palpy could be an amalgam of Lucius Cornelius Sulla, (the first roman "dictator for life"), Gaius Julius Caesar (who IIRC used the Gallic Wars to a similar purpose as Palpy used the Clone Wars) and Octavian. (who completed the transformation into a monarchy)

Lucas never wrote or even conceived of 9 films, at least until a brief period between early 1978 and late 1980.

Okay people, this is Zombie's Star Wars History 101.

Lucas decides around 1973 or so that he wants to do a "Cowboy" picture set in the style of the 1930's science fiction serials. He wrote a bunch of early ANH scripts that he was unpleased with until delving into the more fantastic and spiritual aspect, sucessfully fusing together bits from Don Juan' Tales of Power, Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress, Flash Gordon and other 1930's serials (both cinema and literature) and Zen Buddhism to create the ANH we know. There was no prequels or sequels, no Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader was not Luke's father and the brief history behind the characters that Lucas came up with pretty much is what is said in the films ("luke's father was a jedi and friend of bens who was killed by another student of bens named darth vader, who hunted down the jedi and then went in league with a corrupt politician who became a tyrant and now rules the galaxy).

But then--surprise surprise!--Star Wars is a hit! Lucas scraps the low-budget sequel he had in mind, which was already released as Splinter of the Minds Eye by Allan Dean Foster, and begins developing a new epic story arc. He hires sci fi legend Leigh Brackette who submits a subpar first draft of ESB before dying. Lucas then has a brainstorm--to reduce redundant storythreads and simplify the complicated backstory involving Luke's father, Ben and Vader, he simply makes Vader Luke's father! Lucas then comes up with a storyline that would, when ANH is included, take course over 6 films. The vague storyline, post-ESB, would involve Luke discovering another jedi on the other side of the galaxy (the "other" yoda spoke of), discovers he has a sister, defeats or converts Vader and finally confronts the Emperor, who makes his first appearance in the flesh in movie 6. He also writes a detailed history for all the storylines/characters which will eventually be used for a planned prequel trilogy, bringing the total film count to 9, which he will film after the 6-movie series is completed. ANH is then titled "episode 4" (first appearing in the 1978 or 79 rerelease) and ESB is episode 5.

He then writes the outline for ESB, hires Lawrence Kasdan to co-write it with him (but gives Brackette the credit in place of his own, in order to honor and preserve her memory) and ESB is born.

However a major problem now surfaces. Lucas realizes that a 6 movie series is far too long--it would take him until 1990 to complete it, and thats not even counting the prequels, which bring the series to a total of 9 films! He then compresses the entire storyline for movies 3-6 into one film--ROTJ. The "other" is fused with the sister storyline and rather than introduce an arbitrary character, she becomes Leia, an already established female. The final assault on Coruscant and confrontation with the Emeperor is scaled back to another Death Star. The story takes a turn that will forever affect the series as Vader's redemption becomes the focus--with the introduction of Leia as Luke's sister, the series becomes less about Luke and more about the saga of the Skywalker family.

With the final third trilogy reduced to ROTJ, Lucas is still hounded with his promises of episodes 7-9 and 1-3. He considers making 7-9 anyway, and surmises that having a storyline involving an older Luke trying to re-establish democracy and the jedi order would be an interesting storyline but that the arc would ultimately be a retread of episodes 4-6. A similar storyline would eventually be created in the EU.

Tired of Star Wars, Lucas takes a breather and runs his many companies but still wants to film episodes 1-3. Seeing the potential of the emerging CG technology he decides to wait until he can let his imagination run unhindered.

With Jurassic Park bringing lifelike CG to the world, Lucas goes ahead with the prequels, modifying them slightly from the original outlines to focus less on Obi Wan (who was the original protagonist) and more about Anakins fall from grace.

Along that two decade odyssey, through public misconception, confusion and exageration, it is thought that Lucas came up with all of Star Wars as we know it in one shot. As more and more time went on, and especially with the aid of the internet, where fans could collate their evidence and share facts, it became more and more obvious that much of it was made up as it went, and that much of the story's history was greatly exagerated by the media.

A question: IIRC there's an urban legend that George Lucas at a point considered Boba Fett being Luke's father. Is this rumour true, and if not - where did it come from?

more bullshit, either from the fans or from the media--i dont see how its even possible, considering that Fett first appeared in ESB (unless of course you count the Holiday Special).

A question: IIRC there's an urban legend that George Lucas at a point considered Boba Fett being Luke's father. Is this rumour true, and if not - where did it come from?

I read (in The Art of Star Wars iirc) that Boba Fett's look was based on early concepts of Darth Vader.

This is the primary connection. Also I've heard rumors (mostly fan speculation) that Boba Fett was supposed to have a primary role in exterminating the Jedi Knights (and yet Vader is credited with that role in the Classic Trilogy).

Those connections probably led to the confusion that Fett may have been Luke's father. That's just a guess though.

Originally the line was "Obi-Wan was your father" but that was only put in to fool spies trying to leak spoilers about the film and Vader's line was redubbed as the one we currently know before release.

Of course in the early drafts and in ANH its pretty obvious that Lucas hadn't thought of the Vader as Luke's father plot twist yet.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Palpatine has more in common with Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus (colloquially Caesar Augustus), than Adolph Hitler, as Publius I believe has illustrated several times prior.

I always believed Palpatine to have more in common with Gaius Julius Caesar than Octavian, in turn.

He's got some things in common with Gaius Julius Caesar; the means they use are fairly close. But then again their goals were some what different when you got down to it. Julius Caesar was never the power mad tyrant Palpatine was, and there's more than a few that question the traditional veiw that Caesar intended to become the monarch of Rome.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:Then again - Palpy could be an amalgam of Lucius Cornelius Sulla, (the first roman "dictator for life"), Gaius Julius Caesar (who IIRC used the Gallic Wars to a similar purpose as Palpy used the Clone Wars) and Octavian. (who completed the transformation into a monarchy)

He's got bits and peaces of those in there for sure, as I've said. But Palpatine also has elements of Gauis Marius and the aforementioned Hilter references, as well as a few shades of Stalin. Palpatine and his rise are too complex to be ripped off literally from any one source, but I think it's safe to safe that the demise of the Roman Republic and the Rise of the Empire shape it in a large part. The modern references are there but are more superficial.

Stormbringer wrote:

Simon H.Johansen wrote:Then again - Palpy could be an amalgam of Lucius Cornelius Sulla, (the first roman "dictator for life"), Gaius Julius Caesar (who IIRC used the Gallic Wars to a similar purpose as Palpy used the Clone Wars) and Octavian. (who completed the transformation into a monarchy)

He's got bits and peaces of those in there for sure, as I've said. But Palpatine also has elements of Gauis Marius and the aforementioned Hilter references, as well as a few shades of Stalin.

Heck - it's even been suggested that Palpatine was based on Nixon, although I fail to see how that's supposed to make sense.

Julius Caesar was never the power mad tyrant Palpatine was, and there's more than a few that question the traditional veiw that Caesar intended to become the monarch of Rome.

Isn't there a (quite new) theory that Caesar's apparent dictatorship actually was much more on behalf on the masses than the supposed democratic government which he replaced?

zombie84 wrote:I read (in The Art of Star Wars iirc) that Boba Fett's look was based on early concepts of Darth Vader.

This is the primary connection. Also I've heard rumors (mostly fan speculation) that Boba Fett was supposed to have a primary role in exterminating the Jedi Knights (and yet Vader is credited with that role in the Classic Trilogy).

Those connections probably led to the confusion that Fett may have been Luke's father. That's just a guess though.

Sounds like a reasonable enough explanation to me.

It's a cowboy movie, according to my AP Euro teacher.