Imperial Remnant Citizens

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2003-12-23 01:17pm

Do many Citizens of the Imperial Remnant successfully defect to the NR, like how Soviet citizens used to defect to the West?

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-12-23 01:29pm

Very unlikely.
It's because the Remnant is what we would call the hard core. These worlds and thier population WANT to be in the Remnant. (Mening that they are the truely loyal ones)
So mass defection is unlikely......

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-12-23 01:32pm

there is hardly any defection... the remnant agrees that all worlds can choose their allegiance, remnant or NR... i think there are even some worlds, mostly human populated, which joined the remnant after peace was made

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2003-12-23 01:38pm

Not to mention that the whole motivation for soviet defetors was that life in the USSR sucked. The Imperial Remnant isn't really so bad Compared to when Palpatine was running things.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2003-12-23 04:25pm

Not to mention that the Imperial Remnants is not bad like Darksider said. It is a lot like the New Republic except it still holds the Imperial values. So defection would be very unlikely in the IR.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-12-23 07:09pm

Lex wrote:there is hardly any defection... the remnant agrees that all worlds can choose their allegiance, remnant or NR... i think there are even some worlds, mostly human populated, which joined the remnant after peace was made

What planets left the NR? IIRC it was only speculation in the HoT duology that Republic worlds would join the IR.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-12-23 07:47pm

Techno_Union wrote:Not to mention that the Imperial Remnants is not bad like Darksider said. It is a lot like the New Republic except it still holds the Imperial values. So defection would be very unlikely in the IR.

And concerning the actual ruling and government, they seem to do a hell better job than the NR....

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-23 07:53pm

There's a lot to be said for a dictatorship when the dictator is a good man, they're just impossible to get established. The Empire couldn't hope for a better Grand Admiral.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2003-12-24 01:21pm

I think in one of Zahn's books in the Hand of Thrawn Duology, Han and someone else are on Bastion, and the world looks pretty normal to me for Star Wars- for example, the Sabacc tournament. Life is probably not that much different from NR, except that in Remnant it is an authoritarian regime, so you'd better be careful who you piss off.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-24 02:38pm

Lord Pounder wrote: What planets left the NR? IIRC it was only speculation in the HoT duology that Republic worlds would join the IR.

No, several systems did join.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-24 02:56pm

Well, its not a dictatership anymore, yes Pelleon commands the military and thus holds a certain amount of power with the moffs, but the moffs rule from a council and can overrule Pelleon.

And we know for a fact that there were numerous defections to the IR for years after the peace, the pirates in the first Dark Tide book preyed on people moving to imperial space.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-24 03:07pm

Ender wrote:Well, its not a dictatership anymore, yes Pelleon commands the military and thus holds a certain amount of power with the moffs, but the moffs rule from a council and can overrule Pelleon.

The Moff Council is a stratocratic body. All Moffs are military officers, and thusly the Imperial Remnant is controlled, absolutely, by a oligarchy of appointed military officers.

However, it is interesting that Pelleaon, as a Grand Admiral, and Supreme Commander, cannot pull rank on the Moffs when it comes to fleet resources.

Presumably the Moffs exercise absolute control over sections of the fleet which are reserved to each of the eight Imperial sectors (the modern Sector Groups; the Moff Governors' Starfleets), with Pelleaon's absolute command as Supreme Commander of the Navy being limited to the central government's navy (the Imperial Navy). Pelleaon's dealings must be regarding the transfering of sectorial fleet commands to his control.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-12-24 04:32pm

The Kernel wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote: What planets left the NR? IIRC it was only speculation in the HoT duology that Republic worlds would join the IR.
No, several systems did join.

Yeah and as i asked which ones? And where is the source?

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-12-24 05:03pm

It's also difficult to imagine that Palpatine could have consolidated power in the first place without a galactic population with apathy toward other forms of government. He proved useful to them; that was enough.

Remember that the Empire had countless billions of supporters; many of the Imperial troops - if not all - were volunteers. Nearly all wealth families had ties to the Imperial hierarchy. Whatsmore, we know that the Rebellion had to tred softly everywhere it went - there were plenty of people who villified it. I imagine that moving to the Rim, not retaining the population once there, would have been the major issue for Imperial sympathizers in the NJO period.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-24 06:21pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Ender wrote:Well, its not a dictatership anymore, yes Pelleon commands the military and thus holds a certain amount of power with the moffs, but the moffs rule from a council and can overrule Pelleon.
The Moff Council is a stratocratic body. All Moffs are military officers,

Source?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-24 06:47pm

Lord Pounder wrote: Yeah and as i asked which ones? And where is the source?

In Vision of the Future, Thrawn and Moff Disra visited one of the systems that bordered the Empire (I can't remember the name, but it was a major plot point) and they applied for admission into the Empire. Disra also mentioned that several other systems had applied for admission.

If you really want more info I'll drag my copy of VotF out.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-12-24 06:55pm

I remember that as well; as soon as it was rumored that Thrawn was back, numerous systems accepted invitations of return.

Gunshy · Post by **Gunshy** » 2003-12-24 08:10pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

All Moffs are military officers

No, in the Thrawn duology, Palleaon calls Moff Distra a civilian. I can't find my copy of VoF, but it happened when Palleaon arrives on a space station that is holding a friend of his prisoner. The guard says something like, "You can't see him, Moff Distra's orders." Palleaon replies that moff Distra is a civilian.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-24 08:22pm

Ender wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Ender wrote:Well, its not a dictatership anymore, yes Pelleon commands the military and thus holds a certain amount of power with the moffs, but the moffs rule from a council and can overrule Pelleon.
The Moff Council is a stratocratic body. All Moffs are military officers,
Source?

Imperial Sourcebook, and well, y'know, the movies.

The Moffs are all uniformed military officers in each film. Down to the standardized uniform and rank insignia. Show me a single civilian at the table in ANH but Vader. Each Grand Moff Governor controls an Imperial sector absolutely in the political sense, and simultaneously holds the military position equivalent to High Admiral, Surface Marshal, *High Marshal for the navy, army, and starfighter forces; that is, he commands all military forces assigned to a particular sector. He does not command as a civilian.

* Note: The starfighter equivalent to the Army's Surface Marshal and the Navy's High Admiral ranks is speculated by Saxton. Those ranks come directly from the Imperial Sourcebook.

Technical Commentaries, Military Structure wrote:Upper Echelons

Galactic Empire
The rank titles tabulated above are those used in a Sector Group. This is the gathered total of the Empire's naval and military forces assigned to a particular sector of space. Sectors are political regions defined so that they encompass several hunderd to several thousand inhabited worlds, and several million systems without permanent settlement.

The supreme commander of a Sector Group is a Moff, the military official who governs the sector politically as well as martially. Higher commands are given to Grand Moffs, who possess the equivalent of several sector groups for the purpose of pacifying temporary territories called Priority Sectors. These regions are composed of adjacent parts of one or more sectors where rebellion, piracy or organised crime are rife. More than a tenth of the Empire's armed forces are kept in reserve in the Galactic Core without attachment to any particular regional government. These forces are at the disposal of the Emperor, the twelve Grand Admirals or for deployment in elite roving commands such as those of Lord Darth Vader and Admiral Giel.

Gunshy wrote:Illuminatus Primus wrote:
All Moffs are military officers

No, in the Thrawn duology, Palleaon calls Moff Distra a civilian. I can't find my copy of VoF, but it happened when Palleaon arrives on a space station that is holding a friend of his prisoner. The guard says something like, "You can't see him, Moff Distra's orders." Palleaon replies that moff Distra is a civilian.

Find the citation. And that sounds like horseshit to me: the movies directly depict Moff Governors as uniformed military officers.

It could be that the space station in question did not belong to Moff Disra's Starfleet or Sector Group, and rather was under the jurisdiction of the Imperial High Command, in which case, Pelleaon, being the most senior Imperial Naval officer in existance, would have absolute authority.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-24 08:29pm

Holding a military position equivlent to does not mean you are in the military dude. Vader holds the position of Commander of the Military, he's not an oficer and he doesn't wear a uniform.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-24 08:34pm

Ender wrote:Holding a military position equivlent to does not mean you are in the military dude. Vader holds the position of Commander of the Military, he's not an oficer and he doesn't wear a uniform.

*bludgeons Ender with his copies of A New Hope and Return of the Jedi*

Of course, which is why the movies depict Moffs as wearing uniforms and military insignia.

I'm very annoyed you skipped to a specific part of my thread, where I state the equivalent army, navy, and starfighter force ranks to Moff, where Moff is all three with political power and strawmanned it into that.

Yes I know Vader is Supreme Commander while being a civilian, and the President is our Commander-in-Chief while being a civilian, and this is precisely why the Empire was not a stratocracy. The Imperial Remnant is a stratocracy because it does have uniformed officers running it by council. That was the whole point.

EDIT: Replaced TESB with ROTJ.

Gunshy · Post by **Gunshy** » 2003-12-24 08:35pm

Illuminatus, Horseshit? Yeah maybe, it's been a while...but I'm pretty sure I had a WTF moment when I read that he was a civilian, since I always assumed Moffs were military. But, I can't find my book, so I'll shut up about it for now.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-24 08:36pm

Gunshy wrote:Illuminatus, Horseshit? Yeah maybe, it's been a while...but I'm pretty sure I had a WTF moment when I read that he was a civilian, since I always assumed Moffs were military. But, I can't find my book, so I'll shut up about it for now.

Its alright, I'd just like the citation. If you ARE correct, then we have an interesting contradiction to fix.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-12-24 08:41pm

Not really, twenty years passing, and the downfall of several regimes would be more than enough to cause some shift in governmental policies, such as Moffs being specifically military. A general lack of faith in the military may have helped to bring this about after the Empire' repeated defeats.

Edit: Or maybe the bugets just got so tight that they made revoked the Mo0ff's clothing allowance, who knows.

Gunshy · Post by **Gunshy** » 2003-12-24 09:06pm

Whew! Found it. Page 486 of VotF.

"My orders come from Moff Distra himself, sir," he said, the words coming out with difficulty.
Beside Pellaeon, the stormtrooper commander stirred. "Moff Disra is a civilian," Pellaeon reminded the man, giving him one last chance.

Christ, I couldn't remember the Moff's name correctly, but I remembered he was a civilian dog.