Canon only: Did the Rebellion know Palpatine was a Sith?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-24 02:29am

I'm wondering did according to strict Old Trilogy canon (nothing produced after the fact) did the Rebellion know the Emperor was a Force User, indeed a Sith Lord? It seems that as shitting their britches scared as Luke was of Vader the Emperor himself should have scared him more. Did he not know or was he just a fool?

Gunshy · Post by **Gunshy** » 2003-12-24 02:46am

I would guess then didn't know. In a new hope, Admiral Motti says to Vader, "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader.
Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure
up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the
Rebel's hidden fort..."

That most likely indicates that Motti believes Vader is the last to practice the force. Doubtful he would insult the force if he knew the Emperor was a sith.

Also in a new hope, when Tarkin is talking to Vader, they have a conversation that goes:
"VADER: Don't underestimate the power of the Force.

TARKIN: The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe.
You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion."

There's an even stronger indication that the Emperor hid his abilities, since one of the top men in the Empire didn't know of them.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-12-24 05:22am

It's possible that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda knew that the Emperor was a Force-user... but they never told Luke Skywalker.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2003-12-24 11:49am

Yoda told Luke in ROTJ "do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your fathers' fate you will" which seems a pretty clear indication that Yoda for certain knew of Palpatine's abilities (whether first- or second-hand, we gotta wait another 17 months for that

)

Still, he could have been a little bit more specific to Luke, before he was getting deep-fried on the DS II

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-24 02:25pm

Stormbringer wrote:I'm wondering did according to strict Old Trilogy canon (nothing produced after the fact) did the Rebellion know the Emperor was a Force User, indeed a Sith Lord? It seems that as shitting their britches scared as Luke was of Vader the Emperor himself should have scared him more. Did he not know or was he just a fool?

Doubtful. ANH implies the only Force user Tarkin were aware of was Vader.

Secondary sources also say that only Palpatine's closest advisors ever knew he was a Sith Lord, or even a Force user.

The database logs on Palpatine's Jedi advisory by Jorus C'boath had been erased in TTT.

EDIT:

I find "canon only" thread exceedingly obnoxious, as they claim there is something untrue about official data, which is a blatently false presumption. This makes about as much sense as "By TF.net Canon Rules."

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-12-24 02:52pm

Burak Gazan wrote:Yoda told Luke in ROTJ "do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your fathers' fate you will" which seems a pretty clear indication that Yoda for certain knew of Palpatine's abilities (whether first- or second-hand, we gotta wait another 17 months for that :) )

Well, he did catch Palpy reading Amidala's mind in AOTC.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-12-24 03:45pm

Only of the three movies? No, literally it's viewed as a senator turned into galactic dictator who had a former Jedi Knight as his enforcer. Yoda and Ben knew, but doubtful anyone especially that a lot of Vader's power and mystique hinged on him being basically this last bit of the Jedi Order.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2003-12-24 04:03pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Burak Gazan wrote:Yoda told Luke in ROTJ "do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your fathers' fate you will" which seems a pretty clear indication that Yoda for certain knew of Palpatine's abilities (whether first- or second-hand, we gotta wait another 17 months for that )
Well, he did catch Palpy reading Amidala's mind in AOTC.

Possibly, but there is a difference between simple mind tricks and the full power of the Dark Side

Anyone other than Yoda or Obi-Wan who did or will know his true nature is likely dead by his hand or Vaders....

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-12-24 04:29pm

That being said Palpatine did make suggestions that he had forseen Luke destroying him i.e. Jedi Vision. Though that was in private and unless the Rebels could tap their communications i doubt the conversation was public knowledge.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-24 05:45pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:EDIT:

I find "canon only" thread exceedingly obnoxious, as they claim there is something untrue about official data, which is a blatently false presumption. This makes about as much sense as "By TF.net Canon Rules."

No, I'm just curious about the movies themselves and what was orginally intended to happen on screen. I simply didn't want to get into the EU on this.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-12-24 05:49pm

Lord Pounder wrote:That being said Palpatine did make suggestions that he had forseen Luke destroying him i.e. Jedi Vision. Though that was in private and unless the Rebels could tap their communications i doubt the conversation was public knowledge.

Couldn't he just imply it in a way that wouldn't suggest that he could use the Force?

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-12-24 06:05pm

Luke was totally surprised by the Force Lightning in ROTJ. He would have been better prepared, if he had known of Palpatines Sith powers. So it is not common knowledge....

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-24 06:09pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Burak Gazan wrote:Yoda told Luke in ROTJ "do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your fathers' fate you will" which seems a pretty clear indication that Yoda for certain knew of Palpatine's abilities (whether first- or second-hand, we gotta wait another 17 months for that )
Well, he did catch Palpy reading Amidala's mind in AOTC.

When was that?

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-12-24 06:14pm

Ender wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:
Burak Gazan wrote:Yoda told Luke in ROTJ "do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your fathers' fate you will" which seems a pretty clear indication that Yoda for certain knew of Palpatine's abilities (whether first- or second-hand, we gotta wait another 17 months for that :) )
Well, he did catch Palpy reading Amidala's mind in AOTC.
When was that?

In the meeting at the beginning. He answered a question Amidala hadn't yet asked, and Yoda gave him a look.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-12-24 07:00pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Ender wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:Well, he did catch Palpy reading Amidala's mind in AOTC.
When was that?
In the meeting at the beginning. He answered a question Amidala hadn't yet asked, and Yoda gave him a look.

Yes I can see how that says "Mind Reading!" all over it....isn't that just a BIT speculation?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-24 07:24pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Ender wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:Well, he did catch Palpy reading Amidala's mind in AOTC.
When was that?
In the meeting at the beginning. He answered a question Amidala hadn't yet asked, and Yoda gave him a look.

Speculation on your part, not anything definitive.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-24 08:09pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:EDIT:

I find "canon only" thread exceedingly obnoxious, as they claim there is something untrue about official data, which is a blatently false presumption. This makes about as much sense as "By TF.net Canon Rules."
No, I'm just curious about the movies themselves and what was orginally intended to happen on screen. I simply didn't want to get into the EU on this.

Ok, well in that case, I'd say Tarkin's behavior and statements in the beginning of ANH indicates that very very few Imperials knew of the Emperor's power in the Dark Side.

Yoda knew, but one would expect a former Jedi to know.

As for the Rebels? Who knows. None of them knew about Yoda, and even if they did, Imperial officers like Tarkin would brush such claims off as Rebel propoganda, likely. ANH definitely indicates to me that Force users were regarded as a dead species except for Vader, and technology and military might a governing force of the future; that the old spiritual and supernatural had faded away like wizards' parlor tricks.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-25 03:39pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Ender wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:Well, he did catch Palpy reading Amidala's mind in AOTC.
When was that?
In the meeting at the beginning. He answered a question Amidala hadn't yet asked, and Yoda gave him a look.

I've brought this up before. I believe that Yoda sensed something, and that Palpatine was indeed reading Amidala's mind. But remember the bit about the Dark Side clouding everything earlier in that same conversation? Yoda looked suspicious, but his senses were clouded. He couldn't just accuse the Supreme Chancellor of being a Force user, much less a Sith Lord, on just the basis of him finishing someone else's sentence.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-12-26 12:28am

Rogue 9 wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:
Ender wrote:When was that?
In the meeting at the beginning. He answered a question Amidala hadn't yet asked, and Yoda gave him a look.
I've brought this up before. I believe that Yoda sensed something, and that Palpatine was indeed reading Amidala's mind. But remember the bit about the Dark Side clouding everything earlier in that same conversation? Yoda looked suspicious, but his senses were clouded. He couldn't just accuse the Supreme Chancellor of being a Force user, much less a Sith Lord, on just the basis of him finishing someone else's sentence.

That slip-up aroused his suspicions, and Obi-Wan's informing him of Dooku telling him that the senate was in the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith likely confirmed it.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-12-26 12:09pm

Tribun wrote:Luke was totally surprised by the Force Lightning in ROTJ. He would have been better prepared, if he had known of Palpatines Sith powers. So it is not common knowledge....

Given Lukes brief training in the ways of the Force I'd be supprised if he knew much about Dark-Side powers beyond those Vader demonstrated and as stated before Vader wasn't exactly going all out in his fights with Luke.

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Canon only: Did the Rebellion know Palpatine was a Sith?

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