Can you measure the [effect of the] Force in newtons?

[Eframepilot]

This started in Anakin vs. Rand al'Thor in the Fantasy forum. I'm curious whether it makes sense, at least by the rules of this site, to quantitatively analyze the metaphysical Force for which "Size matters not," according to Yoda. Specifically, can we compute the amount of force a Jedi must be applying to a very massive object and assume he can apply the same force to a much less massive object?

Example: Yoda, an X-Wing and a pebble. Now, since believe it or not I am a physicist-in-training, on vacation no less, we are going to simplify the problem as much as possible. Assume Yoda can apply the Force equally to an X-Wing (treated as a point mass) and a pebble. Since I have no idea how much an X-Wing masses, let's underestimate it and say it's a metric ton. Yoda can obviously levitate the X-Wing against 1 G, or about 10 m/s^2, for at least 10 seconds. That's 10 thousand Newtons. Let's assume the pebble is 1 gram. Yoda applies the same force to the pebble for ten seconds. That pebble is going to be moving at about 1/3 the speed of light! Neglecting air resistance and special relativity, of course. Now, does it really make sense that Yoda could do this?

I say no. The Force cannot be "measured in newtons." Instead, we could theorize that the Jedi's telekinesis is not limited by force but rather by power. This would explain the relativistic pebble, since Yoda does no work on the X-Wing but one hell of a lot of work on the pebble (5 terajoules if my back-of-the-envelope calculations are right). If Yoda is limited by how much power he can draw from the Force, it would explain why he wasn't smashing Federation starships with ball bearings in AOTC. But I suspect that any attempt to quantify the Jedi's abilities is futile. The Jedi vary in TK strength from paperclip-pushing (Corran Horn) to starbusting (What's-His-Face in Golden Age of the Sith. Marka Ragnos's successor. He had a meditation sphere. Naga Sadow or something) The Force is exercised nonlocally and metaphysically. We can qualitatively assess what various Jedi can do at certain times in their careers, but quantitative analysis veers too far into the speculative realm with too many unknown variables to yield any meaningful results.

[Thread title edited to remove the strawman distortion- DW]

[kojikun]

That would actually make a really neat weapon in a fight. Imagine seeing a Jedi whoop ass by making rocks and pebbles fly at his opponent, bursting into flames mid flight. Thousands of the tiny little things from all directions, just rocketting towards the guy..

[Super-Gagme]

I am imagining Magnetos breakout in X2

[Darth Wong]

This started in Anakin vs. Rand al'Thor in the Fantasy forum. I'm curious whether it makes sense, at least by the rules of this site, to quantitatively analyze the metaphysical Force for which "Size matters not," according to Yoda. Specifically, can we compute the amount of force a Jedi must be applying to a very massive object and assume he can apply the same force to a much less massive object?

Why not? It seems to be a function of control and effort.

Example: Yoda, an X-Wing and a pebble. Now, since believe it or not I am a physicist-in-training, on vacation no less, we are going to simplify the problem as much as possible. Assume Yoda can apply the Force equally to an X-Wing (treated as a point mass) and a pebble. Since I have no idea how much an X-Wing masses, let's underestimate it and say it's a metric ton. Yoda can obviously levitate the X-Wing against 1 G, or about 10 m/s^2, for at least 10 seconds. That's 10 thousand Newtons. Let's assume the pebble is 1 gram. Yoda applies the same force to the pebble for ten seconds. That pebble is going to be moving at about 1/3 the speed of light! Neglecting air resistance and special relativity, of course. Now, does it really make sense that Yoda could do this?

Since the grain of sand (sorry, 1g is a grain of sand) will be far out of sight long before it reaches that kind of speed, his ability to apply force to it would have greatly diminished by then.

I say no. The Force cannot be "measured in newtons."

Wow, since when is "I say" a convincing argument?

Instead, we could theorize that the Jedi's telekinesis is not limited by force but rather by power. This would explain the relativistic pebble, since Yoda does no work on the X-Wing but one hell of a lot of work on the pebble (5 terajoules if my back-of-the-envelope calculations are right).

I can't be bothered to compute it, but even if that's so, what difference does it make?

If Yoda is limited by how much power he can draw from the Force, it would explain why he wasn't smashing Federation starships with ball bearings in AOTC.

Anakin could throw giant boulders around when he was massacring the sandpeople. But it would take a lot more than a fast-moving ball-bearing to take down one of those starships. Are you on drugs?

But I suspect that any attempt to quantify the Jedi's abilities is futile. The Jedi vary in TK strength from paperclip-pushing (Corran Horn) to starbusting (What's-His-Face in Golden Age of the Sith. Marka Ragnos's successor. He had a meditation sphere. Naga Sadow or something) The Force is exercised nonlocally and metaphysically.

Even if all of that were true, it doesn't change the fact that if a Jedi can perform a feat requiring A amount of power at any given time, it is reasonable to say he could do it at another time. If he fails to do so in every single circumstance where you think it appropriate, you can chalk it up to other reasons.

We can qualitatively assess what various Jedi can do at certain times in their careers, but quantitative analysis veers too far into the speculative realm with too many unknown variables to yield any meaningful results.

Bullshit. Qualitative assessment is not an assessment at all. How is it more "speculative" to say that a given Jedi lifted an object of X tons mass than to take out the number, which is the only piece of hard data in the observation?

You are obviously just looking for an excuse to cling to subjective bullshit and throw objective data out the window.

[Crown]

That would actually make a really neat weapon in a fight. Imagine seeing a Jedi whoop ass by making rocks and pebbles fly at his opponent, bursting into flames mid flight. Thousands of the tiny little things from all directions, just rocketting towards the guy..

Joruus C'boath demostrated this to an (lesser) extent in the Thrawn trilogies.

[Eframepilot]

Since the grain of sand (sorry, 1g is a grain of sand)

Actually I think it's somewhat bigger than a grain of sand. Is a thousand grains of sand a kilogram? Not usually. Maybe sand in Canada is transuranic. But whatever.

will be far out of sight long before it reaches that kind of speed, his ability to apply force to it would have greatly diminished by then.

You're assuming another limit on Yoda's ability that has no canon basis. We see Vader choking people out of conventional LOS, and in Dark Empire Palpatine controlled the Force storm on Coruscant from Byss with no diminishment. Distance matters not. The relativistic grain of sand remains possible by the equivalent Force model.

I can't be bothered to compute it, but even if that's so, what difference does it make?

It illustrates why applying 10,000 N to an X-Wing and to a grain of sand are very different physical situations. You might be able to apply 10,000 N to a light object, but unless you can access and channel a lot of power, you won't be able to apply it for very long. Plus, energy is important, as we have seen that Jedi channeling too much Force energy suffer ill effects (Dorsk 81, Anakin Solo at his death. Corran Horn has some upper limit of energy absorption too).

Anakin could throw giant boulders around when he was massacring the sandpeople. But it would take a lot more than a fast-moving ball-bearing to take down one of those starships. Are you on drugs?

Okay, so I'm using hyperbole. A relativistic ball bearing in the atmosphere would be a very bad idea. But you get the point.

Even if all of that were true, it doesn't change the fact that if a Jedi can perform a feat requiring A amount of power at any given time, it is reasonable to say he could do it at another time. If he fails to do so in every single circumstance where you think it appropriate, you can chalk it up to other reasons.

And then we argue about what those reasons are ("shroud of the Dark Side," lack of time to focus, lack of proper training, etc.) and whether they apply to whatever situation we are debating. And there are further questions: is direction important, i.e., could the force applied to an X-Wing also uniformly implode or explode a humanoid head? Can the force be applied in a small area on an object in opposite directions, say to break a chain or handcuffs? Why don't we see this when it would be useful? Extrapolating unseen abilities is a dangerous practice.

Bullshit. Qualitative assessment is not an assessment at all. How is it more "speculative" to say that a given Jedi lifted an object of X tons mass than to take out the number, which is the only piece of hard data in the observation?

Size matters not. Only different in your mind, it is. So, levitating an X-Wing may actually require no greater effort than levitating a rock. From a certain point of view. Likewise, shoving a heavy droid at a certain velocity may be little different from shoving a styrofoam cup at the same velocity. We don't know how the Force works, what rules govern it, but from Yoda's descriptions it seems to be very subjective.

You are obviously just looking for an excuse to cling to subjective bullshit and throw objective data out the window.

I abandoned the debate this sprang from since I'm more interested in exploring the issue of the intersection of physics and (imaginary) metaphysics. This debate is more interesting. Objective data means little to a phenomenon which includes stone temples that focus mystic energy and allow normal Jedi to hurl massive starships clear out of a star system. We assume there is a model that scientifically describes the workings of the Force and can be used to make objective calculations, but do we have enough data to construct such a model? Maybe the equivalent force model is correct after all, and the relativistic grain of sand is just a counterintuitive but true result.

[Eframepilot]

In the same vein as the relativistic "grain of sand", I calculate the time and distance it would take Yoda to Force-throw a baseball into orbit. We know from the X-Wing incident that Yoda can apply at least 10,000 N to the baseball for several seconds. Assuming a baseball of mass 0.15 kg and an orbital velocity of less than 8000 m/s, Yoda can accelerate a baseball from rest to greater than orbital velocity in 0.12 seconds over 480 meters. This distance is easily within line of sight and it should definitely be within Yoda's capability to maintain his full concentration across this relatively tiny length. Remember that an X-Wing likely masses far more than a single metric ton, so Yoda shoud be able accelerate the baseball considerably faster than this. If Yoda can really apply the same amount of force to a baseball as an X-Wing, of course.

[Omega-13]

In the same vein as the relativistic "grain of sand", I calculate the time and distance it would take Yoda to Force-throw a baseball into orbit. We know from the X-Wing incident that Yoda can apply at least 10,000 N to the baseball for several seconds. Assuming a baseball of mass 0.15 kg and an orbital velocity of less than 8000 m/s, Yoda can accelerate a baseball from rest to greater than orbital velocity in 0.12 seconds over 480 meters. This distance is easily within line of sight and it should definitely be within Yoda's capability to maintain his full concentration across this relatively tiny length. Remember that an X-Wing likely masses far more than a single metric ton, so Yoda shoud be able accelerate the baseball considerably faster than this. If Yoda can really apply the same amount of force to a baseball as an X-Wing, of course.

I think it has a lot to do with the jedi's ability to just 'want it' more, to just give it all they got,

Luke in SW:ANH used the force to help him guide his shot, even the guidance computers in the X-wing were having problems hitting that exhaust port and yet he did it, Vader was right there, the darkside of the force should have hurt those abilities, Vader could have 'blocked' his ability, but luke just wanted it too much, the entire theme of that scene was just that.

So I think if a jedi really wanted to do these things, it would be possible, although it would depend on the jedi and his state of mind.

[Darth Wong]

Okay, so I'm using hyperbole. A relativistic ball bearing in the atmosphere would be a very bad idea. But you get the point.

What point? Even if the Force is related to work instead of Newtonian force, how does this support your claim that quantitative measurements should be removed from any discussion of Force users? They still indicate lower and upper limits. And a certain amount of force is still necessary to levitate that X-wing, dumb-ass.

And then we argue about what those reasons are ("shroud of the Dark Side," lack of time to focus, lack of proper training, etc.) and whether they apply to whatever situation we are debating.

So? How does this fact justify your claim that quantitative measurements should be thrown out the window and ignored?

And there are further questions: is direction important, i.e., could the force applied to an X-Wing also uniformly implode or explode a humanoid head? Can the force be applied in a small area on an object in opposite directions, say to break a chain or handcuffs? Why don't we see this when it would be useful? Extrapolating unseen abilities is a dangerous practice.

Then show how the extrapolations people are making do not follow from the observed capabilities, rather than attempting to have all quantitative observations of their capabilities thrown out the window.

Size matters not. Only different in your mind, it is.

Hyperbole. If size truly mattered not, then a Force user could throw the Death Star away. If we're going to take Force-related hyperbole literally, why don't I just take Vader's statement about the ability to destroy a planet being insignificant next to the power of the Force as proof that a Force user can effortlessly destroy planets? What kind of moron tries to contradict or dismiss observed data based solely on verbal hyperbole?

I abandoned the debate this sprang from since I'm more interested in exploring the issue of the intersection of physics and (imaginary) metaphysics.

Metaphysics is another term for "bullshit". If it happens in the physical universe and involves objects moving around, it's physics.

This debate is more interesting. Objective data means little to a phenomenon which includes stone temples that focus mystic energy and allow normal Jedi to hurl massive starships clear out of a star system.

Bullshit. You are simply saying that if you don't understand how it works, it must be immune to logic and observation. That's the classic religious mentality.

We assume there is a model that scientifically describes the workings of the Force and can be used to make objective calculations, but do we have enough data to construct such a model?

Yes. It may not be a complete model, but it is a model nonetheless.

Maybe the equivalent force model is correct after all, and the relativistic grain of sand is just a counterintuitive but true result.

Maybe. The onus is on you to provide more evidence or a competing explanation, rather than arguing that the superior alternative to the only known explanation is to simply propose no explanation at all.

The power vs force thing is stupid anyway. Even if Yoda is limited by application of power, he can ALSO be limited by application of force. Real systems are limited by power, force, range of motion, etc. Why should the Force be subject to only one of these types of restrictions? I can see that you are deliberately thinking in the most nonsensical possible way about this.

[SirNitram]

It takes a certain kind of stupid to refuse to do quantitative analysis in Fantasy after I've shown I've no patience for that BS. It takes a whole different level of moron to run crying to PSW afterwards in a desperate attempt to garner support.

[Eframepilot]

What point? Even if the Force is related to work instead of Newtonian force, how does this support your claim that quantitative measurements should be removed from any discussion of Force users? They still indicate lower and upper limits.

My problem is not the quantitative measurements themselves. I object to extrapolating from them assuming that Jedi's control of the Force functions on simple "equivalent force" models. When we do make these extrapolations we get Jedi throwing fastballs to the Moon, and ridiculous results point to a flaw in our model.

Hyperbole. If size truly mattered not, then a Force user could throw the Death Star away. If we're going to take Force-related hyperbole literally, why don't I just take Vader's statement about the ability to destroy a planet being insignificant next to the power of the Force as proof that a Force user can effortlessly destroy planets?

Size clearly matters to some degree, but it's also clear that the dependence is probably not directly proportional to the mass of the object.

We assume there is a model that scientifically describes the workings of the Force and can be used to make objective calculations, but do we have enough data to construct such a model?

Yes. It may not be a complete model, but it is a model nonetheless.

And yet this incomplete model leads to absurd conclusions. Before quantum theory was developed, models of the atom suggested that electrons would spiral into the nucleus in far less than a second. This disagreed with the observed fact that atoms exist. No good scientist would make extrapolations of the internal behavior of atoms from classical atomic models and claim that these extrapolations were valid just because no one had yet come up with a more accurate model.

Maybe. The onus is on you to provide more evidence or a competing explanation, rather than arguing that the superior alternative to the only known explanation is to simply propose no explanation at all.

Sometimes we must acknowledge that our sum of observations is not sufficient to propose a definite explanation or decide between competing models. Currently in high energy physics, we have a Standard Model that describes observed phenomena almost too well but breaks down at higher energies. No one would claim that the Standard Model correctly predicts nature in realms where it has not been observed to be correct, because it is not a complete theory and we don't understand quantum field theory well enough to predict precisely where and how it will fail. We have many many many theories that describe nature in energy realms higher than that which the Standard Model describes, but we cannot claim that any one particular supersymmetric model is the right model and make predictions from it that would be valid in a debate over which supermassive sparticle would win in a fight.

The power vs force thing is stupid anyway. Even if Yoda is limited by application of power, he can ALSO be limited by application of force. Real systems are limited by power, force, range of motion, etc. Why should the Force be subject to only one of these types of restrictions? I can see that you are deliberately thinking in the most nonsensical possible way about this.

I never argued that it must be one limit or the other. There can, and likely are, dozens of different limits on Jedi's ability to apply the Force. But without a significantly greater number of observations showing Jedi pushing their abilities to the edge, we may never establish these limits with any degree of certainty. Do you think Yoda can throw a baseball into orbit? Can we ever know (assuming we don't see a Jedi ever try to do something similar) for certain?

[Darth Wong]

My problem is not the quantitative measurements themselves. I object to extrapolating from them assuming that Jedi's control of the Force functions on simple "equivalent force" models. When we do make these extrapolations we get Jedi throwing fastballs to the Moon, and ridiculous results point to a flaw in our model.

Then propose a better model, dumb-ass. For example, point out that the GPE difference between the X-wing in the swamp and the X-wing in the air might also be a limiting factor. You still don't get the whole "physical analysis" concept, do you?

Size clearly matters to some degree, but it's also clear that the dependence is probably not directly proportional to the mass of the object.

For the umpteenth time, propose and justify a better explanation.

And yet this incomplete model leads to absurd conclusions.

Then show how it produces such absurd conclusions, and produce a better model. That is how a logical mind works, rather than simply declaring that objective, quantitative analysis should be eliminated.

Before quantum theory was developed, models of the atom suggested that electrons would spiral into the nucleus in far less than a second. This disagreed with the observed fact that atoms exist. No good scientist would make extrapolations of the internal behavior of atoms from classical atomic models and claim that these extrapolations were valid just because no one had yet come up with a more accurate model.

Provide an example of such an obviously invalid extrapolation which is relevant to this discussion, then.

Sometimes we must acknowledge that our sum of observations is not sufficient to propose a definite explanation or decide between competing models.

Show that this is the case here.

I never argued that it must be one limit or the other. There can, and likely are, dozens of different limits on Jedi's ability to apply the Force. But without a significantly greater number of observations showing Jedi pushing their abilities to the edge, we may never establish these limits with any degree of certainty.

So? How does this change the fact that, if a Force user can lift a multi-ton object into the air and drop it on someone in a movie somewhere, he can probably do the same thing against somebody else? You must show that the feat being proposed is sufficiently different that the former incident does not apply, rather than simply appealing to ignorance, which is what you're doing.

Do you think Yoda can throw a baseball into orbit?

It does not necessarily follow from his known capabilities, although I would hesitate to say he definitely CAN'T.

Can we ever know (assuming we don't see a Jedi ever try to do something similar) for certain?

First, you must show that the "extrapolations" to which you object do not, in fact, follow logically from observation.

[Howedar]

since Yoda does no work on the X-Wing

Point of fact: Yoda does do work on the X-Wing. He lifts probably 5 meters against the force of gravity. And don't try to weasel out of that by claiming he set it back down again (hence zero net work), because he set it down higher than where he picked it up.

[Joe Momma]

My problem is not the quantitative measurements themselves. I object to extrapolating from them assuming that Jedi's control of the Force functions on simple "equivalent force" models. When we do make these extrapolations we get Jedi throwing fastballs to the Moon, and ridiculous results point to a flaw in our model.

As much as it pains me to cite a fucking Kevin J. Anderson book, a small group of Jedi who had only recently graduated from Luke Skywalker's academy combined their abilities to throw a star destroyer in orbit above them several light years in a matter of moments in Darksaber. Luke also managed to quickly reassemble the ruins of Vader's castle into a whole building again in Before the Storm. So some of the extrapolated results might not be as ridiculous as you think.

Granted both of the above were shitty books, but they're also official according to Lucasfilms guidelines.

But without a significantly greater number of observations showing Jedi pushing their abilities to the edge, we may never establish these limits with any degree of certainty.

We can certainly establish lower limits from what we have seen them do.

Do you think Yoda can throw a baseball into orbit? Can we ever know (assuming we don't see a Jedi ever try to do something similar) for certain?

Very few things in life can be established for certain. But we can take our observations and come to tentative conclusions about the likelihood of an event or action. This seems reasonable as long as one acknowledges the degree to which the extrapolations may be questionable.

You seem to be suggesting that a lack of absolute certainty is the same as having no certainty at all, which in turn suggests there is no point in speculating about anything if we don't already know everything about it. If I'm misunderstanding you, please correct me.

-- Joe Momma

[Eframepilot]

since Yoda does no work on the X-Wing

Point of fact: Yoda does do work on the X-Wing. He lifts probably 5 meters against the force of gravity. And don't try to weasel out of that by claiming he set it back down again (hence zero net work), because he set it down higher than where he picked it up.

In my thought experiment, Yoda never moves the 1 metric ton X-Wing anywhere. I specifically constructed it to emphasize the physical difference between applying force to an X-Wing and a pebble. The actual work done on the X-Wing in TESB is insignificant compared to the pebble since it didn't move very far. I don't see what point there is to nitpick this.

[Eframepilot]

As much as it pains me to cite a fucking Kevin J. Anderson book, a small group of Jedi who had only recently graduated from Luke Skywalker's academy combined their abilities to throw a star destroyer in orbit above them several light years in a matter of moments in Darksaber. Luke also managed to quickly reassemble the ruins of Vader's castle into a whole building again in Before the Storm. So some of the extrapolated results might not be as ridiculous as you think.

Yeah, they may not be. Also from the KJA books is Kyp Durron's belief that he could pull the Sun Crusher out of Yavin with his Force abilities. But I object to extrapolating a relativistic pebble from just the X-Wing lift, since the Jedi's abilities stem from their connection to the Force which is based more upon mental perception than actual physics.

Very few things in life can be established for certain. But we can take our observations and come to tentative conclusions about the likelihood of an event or action. This seems reasonable as long as one acknowledges the degree to which the extrapolations may be questionable.

You seem to be suggesting that a lack of absolute certainty is the same as having no certainty at all, which in turn suggests there is no point in speculating about anything if we don't already know everything about it. If I'm misunderstanding you, please correct me.

-- Joe Momma

When extrapolating from the Jedi's known abilities, we must take into consideration the nature of their abilities. The Jedi's connection to the Force is mental in nature and is tied to the emotional state of the Jedi and their belief in their abilities. The Force is nigh all-powerful; the Jedi merely tell it what to do. Thus their abilities will be limited by subjective mental factors rather than objective physical factors, and computing expected capabilities from known capabilities will not yield meaningful results. We can still come to conclusions about their capabilities, but these conclusions will be subjective and much more tentative than the objective conclusions we can make about non-Force-related phenomena.

[SirNitram]

since Yoda does no work on the X-Wing

Point of fact: Yoda does do work on the X-Wing. He lifts probably 5 meters against the force of gravity. And don't try to weasel out of that by claiming he set it back down again (hence zero net work), because he set it down higher than where he picked it up.

In my thought experiment, Yoda never moves the 1 metric ton X-Wing anywhere. I specifically constructed it to emphasize the physical difference between applying force to an X-Wing and a pebble. The actual work done on the X-Wing in TESB is insignificant compared to the pebble since it didn't move very far. I don't see what point there is to nitpick this.

Wow, you're a complete retard.

One ton spacecraft... Right. Doesn't matter that even the JSF(An exceptionally light Jet fighter) is rated for 21 tons. Doesn't matter that the hypermatter fuel onboard it's hyperdrive is denser than some black holes. After all, we have to work towards the presumption you started with, and work backwards from there, right?

Oh yea, there's my next complaint. You're doing it ass-backwards to satisfy your preconceived notion. If you really are a physicist, you are apparently an abysmally dishonest one.

That you constructed a thought experiment to 'prove' no work was done on the X-wing proves your dishonesty(Either as a physicist, or in claiming you are one). Anyone with a functional frontal lobe can see work was done: It's higher in it's gravity well, if nothing else. It moves against friction.

[Eframepilot]

First, you must show that the "extrapolations" to which you object do not, in fact, follow logically from observation.

I object to the expectation that quantitative predictions of Jedi's abilities can be made. In other words, regardless of whether Yoda can throw a baseball into orbit, one cannot make the claim by the methods I did above.

Jedi do not actually accomplish their feats themselves. The Force does. The Force is nigh all-powerful. The Force can destroy stars, teleport objects, even preserve consciousness after death. We can speculate on limitations to the Force (time travel?), but for the purposes of this debate, the Force has none. Vader's statement on the power of the Force compared to the Death Star was not hyperbole.

Yet Jedi are not omnipotent. Their ability to command the Force is limited. But are these limitations physical or mental? In other words, can a Jedi not move a moon with the Force because the moon is too massive to be affected by the limited force the Jedi can cause the Force to apply to it, or because the moon is simply too large for the Jedi's mind to grok and focus the Force upon it?

Observation of the Jedi demonstrates that the limits are actually mental. In TESB, Luke attempted to lift his X-Wing out of the swamp. It did begin to rise, showing that the necessary force could be applied, but Luke could not continue the extraction. He was not overwhelmed by the strain of lifting the fighter. Luke failed because he didn't believe it could be done. Yoda and Obi-Wan are very definite that feelings and mental focus are key in using the Force.

It is also demonstrable that the Jedi are not capable of some feats which should be possible based upon physical analysis of their other abilities. Flight is one such feat. Jedi can lift objects and people massing as much as themselves. Jedi can also focus the Force upon themselves. Jedi can even slow their free-fall to survivable speeds (Anakin and Luke), and enhance their jumping ability. But they can't fly like Superman, or even slowly levitate themselves for continuous periods of time. We have observed enough of the Jedi in situations where flight would be advantageous (and sometimes suicidal not to attempt) to conclude that flight is impossible for all practical purposes. There is no physical limitation that should prevent Jedi from flight. We could invent one, but the best explanation is that Jedi, for whatever reason, can't maintain the concentration necessary for flight as telling the Force to make yourself fly is subjectively different from telling it to make something else fly.

A useful analogy is the Incredible Hulk's strength. We can quantitatively measure the Hulk's strength by his lifting and jumping abilities. We can establish lower limits. We can assume that the Hulk's feats are usually replicable. But the Hulk's strength is directly dependent on his anger. So we can't make quantitative predictions of what the Hulk will be able to accomplish in different circumstances since his abilities are directly tied to his emotions, and we can't quantify anger. At least not from what we can observe from a comic book. We can estimate what he can do, but estimations of anger will always be subjective.

Thus we cannot make quantitative predictions of Jedi's unobserved capabilities since Jedi abilities are based upon their subjective perceptions and emotions which cannot be quantified.

[SirNitram]

First, you must show that the "extrapolations" to which you object do not, in fact, follow logically from observation.

I object to the expectation that quantitative predictions of Jedi's abilities can be made. In other words, regardless of whether Yoda can throw a baseball into orbit, one cannot make the claim by the methods I did above.

An intelligent, scientifically minded individual would realize this is due to a flaw in your methods. You, being a moron or a liar, do not realize this.

[Eframepilot]

One ton spacecraft... Right. Doesn't matter that even the JSF(An exceptionally light Jet fighter) is rated for 21 tons. Doesn't matter that the hypermatter fuel onboard it's hyperdrive is denser than some black holes. After all, we have to work towards the presumption you started with, and work backwards from there, right?

It's a conservative estimate, dipshit. The heavier the X-Wing, the more Yoda can accelerate the pebble. If I wanted to bias my calculations, I'd have picked a far heavier X-Wing to show how much crazier the pebble stunt can be.

Oh yea, there's my next complaint. You're doing it ass-backwards to satisfy your preconceived notion. If you really are a physicist, you are apparently an abysmally dishonest one.

Moron. Try using your brain before throwing insults. If you have one.

That you constructed a thought experiment to 'prove' no work was done on the X-wing proves your dishonesty(Either as a physicist, or in claiming you are one). Anyone with a functional frontal lobe can see work was done: It's higher in it's gravity well, if nothing else. It moves against friction.

I never tried to 'prove' that work wasn't done on the X-Wing in TESB, jackass. It doesn't matter to the point of the thought experiment, which is about the damn pebble anyway.

[SirNitram]

One ton spacecraft... Right. Doesn't matter that even the JSF(An exceptionally light Jet fighter) is rated for 21 tons. Doesn't matter that the hypermatter fuel onboard it's hyperdrive is denser than some black holes. After all, we have to work towards the presumption you started with, and work backwards from there, right?

It's a conservative estimate, dipshit. The heavier the X-Wing, the more Yoda can accelerate the pebble. If I wanted to bias my calculations, I'd have picked a far heavier X-Wing to show how much crazier the pebble stunt can be.

It's a blatantly ridiculous estimate.

Oh yea, there's my next complaint. You're doing it ass-backwards to satisfy your preconceived notion. If you really are a physicist, you are apparently an abysmally dishonest one.

Moron. Try using your brain before throwing insults. If you have one.

My brain is in use, little boy. It is clearly analyzing what you are writing, and seeing, as everyone else is, you are making a mockery of analysis: You are working backwards. Like a Creationist, or Darkstar, or whoever.

That you constructed a thought experiment to 'prove' no work was done on the X-wing proves your dishonesty(Either as a physicist, or in claiming you are one). Anyone with a functional frontal lobe can see work was done: It's higher in it's gravity well, if nothing else. It moves against friction.

I never tried to 'prove' that work wasn't done on the X-Wing in TESB, jackass. It doesn't matter to the point of the thought experiment, which is about the damn pebble anyway.

Except your experiment proves nothing. It just says 'I don't think it should be possible, therefore I shall assume it is not'.

[Eframepilot]

It's a blatantly ridiculous estimate.

Yes, it's ridiculously conservative. If it bothers you so much, just substitute "1 metric ton object" for X-Wing, since Yoda can probably lift something considerably lighter. Your whining is useless nitpicking.

My brain is in use, little boy. It is clearly analyzing what you are writing, and seeing, as everyone else is, you are making a mockery of analysis: You are working backwards. Like a Creationist, or Darkstar, or whoever.

Since you seem to know more about how my mind works than me, explain why my analysis method is
backwards'. You don't even seem to know what I'm arguing here.

Except your experiment proves nothing. It just says 'I don't think it should be possible, therefore I shall assume it is not'.

Okay, that's a somewhat valid problem with my initial argument. Maybe Yoda really can throw pebbles relativistically. But if you read my other post, you'd see my more detailed argument about why the calculation itself is pointless. Your accusation of dishonesty about the work done on the X-Wing (or 1 metric ton object, whatever) was wrong, pointless and showed you didn't understand the point of the experiment or didn't care and wanted to personally attack me.

[Eframepilot]

First, you must show that the "extrapolations" to which you object do not, in fact, follow logically from observation.

I object to the expectation that quantitative predictions of Jedi's abilities can be made. In other words, regardless of whether Yoda can throw a baseball into orbit, one cannot make the claim by the methods I did above.

An intelligent, scientifically minded individual would realize this is due to a flaw in your methods. You, being a moron or a liar, do not realize this.

Please read the essay. What is the "this" that is due to the flaw in my methods? Yoda's amazing arm? And my entire argument centers on showing that the methods are flawed!

On second thought, perhaps you are actually agreeing with my argument in the rudest possible manner.

[SirNitram]

It's a blatantly ridiculous estimate.

Yes, it's ridiculously conservative. If it bothers you so much, just substitute "1 metric ton object" for X-Wing, since Yoda can probably lift something considerably lighter. Your whining is useless nitpicking.

Yea, askign that someone be in even the right order of magnitude is 'whining'.

My brain is in use, little boy. It is clearly analyzing what you are writing, and seeing, as everyone else is, you are making a mockery of analysis: You are working backwards. Like a Creationist, or Darkstar, or whoever.

Since you seem to know more about how my mind works than me, explain why my analysis method is
backwards'. You don't even seem to know what I'm arguing here.

You are attempting to claim that newtonian force can't be used to describe a Jedi's abilities(A ridiculous concept, since what we see is clearly force being applied to objects), instead making some laughable 'The Force is omnipotent(Nevermind the logical problems with being omnipotent)' declaration, followed by saying it's purely subjective what a Jedi can do.

This, of course, is a load of bullshit. You've given no evidence for it(Indeed, in referencing the scene with the X-wing being lifted, Yoda is showing us preconceptions are not the limit), and shown no reason why we should not or cannot use the measurements of the actual outcomes.

Except your experiment proves nothing. It just says 'I don't think it should be possible, therefore I shall assume it is not'.

Okay, that's a somewhat valid problem with my initial argument. Maybe Yoda really can throw pebbles relativistically. But if you read my other post, you'd see my more detailed argument about why the calculation itself is pointless. Your accusation of dishonesty about the work done on the X-Wing (or 1 metric ton object, whatever) was wrong, pointless and showed you didn't understand the point of the experiment or didn't care and wanted to personally attack me.

What, your 'The Force is all powerful so let's not do any calculations at all I'll just yell and scream and shove my fingers in my ears' post? Yea, I saw that putrid sack of shit.

[SirNitram]

I object to the expectation that quantitative predictions of Jedi's abilities can be made. In other words, regardless of whether Yoda can throw a baseball into orbit, one cannot make the claim by the methods I did above.

An intelligent, scientifically minded individual would realize this is due to a flaw in your methods. You, being a moron or a liar, do not realize this.

Please read the essay. What is the "this" that is due to the flaw in my methods? Yoda's amazing arm? And my entire argument centers on showing that the methods are flawed!

On second thought, perhaps you are actually agreeing with my argument in the rudest possible manner.

No, you retarded monkey. I'm pointing out if your method can show no predictions, it is absolutely worthless. You know, where you said 'I object to the expectation that quantitative predictions of Jedi's abilities can be made.', or are you denying that now?