StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Here, another of my weird pages.
http://www.lab321.ru/~stas/territory.html
It deals partly with Mr. Andersons claims about the Empire controlling a tiny fraction of the Galaxy, partly with other issues like the Rim, Kamino & Rishi maze, Galaxy exploration, Republic system and world count, Galaxy crossing and so on and so forth.

Any reviews appreciated as now this page is a part of the "Cold War" and I would like to improve it as much as possible
Also would be grateful for grammar and syntax corrections, giving that English is not my mother language.

WGR, Stas.

Wow, that was pretty thorough. A good job really. On population distribution, here's what I've been able to determine from the EU:
Humans originated on Coruscant, and spread out to Alderaan, Corellia, Kuat and the other heavily populated worlds of the Core. Coruscant had by far the largest population of any planet in the galaxy but it should be noted that the planet-wide city is not unique. I believe Nal Hutta's moon was totally urban as well. The Colonies, Expansion Region and Inner Rim are not as densely populated and prestigious as the Core, but are still well known and inhabited to (and I'm guessing) near Earth levels. The Mid Rim and the Outer Rim are where you get planets that are little more than trading posts, fuel stations and military outposts. Exceptions are ancient human civilizations such as the Naboo and nonhuman races that have extensive empires in this region. The Hutts had the largest territory next to the Empire, and I'm guessing it was even larger during the Republic. Extragalactic regions like the Rishi Maze and the satellite galaxies were unknown prior to AOTC, but large portions of the main galaxy are still unexplored. Wild Space, on one end of the galaxy, is probably just that. Not necessarily unexplored, but largely uninhabited. The Unknown Regions are the domain of the Ssi-Ruuk and the Chiss. And the Deep Core was almost completely uncharted until the Empire came along. During the Empire's reign it had a hold on virtually everything but Wild Space and the Unknown Regions, with territories like the Corporate Sector, Hutts and Hapans remaining autonomous for other reasons.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Wow, that was pretty thorough. A good job really. On population distribution, here's what I've been able to determine from the EU:
Humans originated on Coruscant, and spread out to Alderaan, Corellia, Kuat and the other heavily populated worlds of the Core. Coruscant had by far the largest population of any planet in the galaxy but it should be noted that the planet-wide city is not unique. I believe Nal Hutta's moon was totally urban as well. The Colonies, Expansion Region and Inner Rim are not as densely populated and prestigious as the Core, but are still well known and inhabited to (and I'm guessing) near Earth levels. The Mid Rim and the Outer Rim are where you get planets that are little more than trading posts, fuel stations and military outposts. Exceptions are ancient human civilizations such as the Naboo and nonhuman races that have extensive empires in this region. The Hutts had the largest territory next to the Empire, and I'm guessing it was even larger during the Republic. Extragalactic regions like the Rishi Maze and the satellite galaxies were unknown prior to AOTC, but large portions of the main galaxy are still unexplored. Wild Space, on one end of the galaxy, is probably just that. Not necessarily unexplored, but largely uninhabited. The Unknown Regions are the domain of the Ssi-Ruuk and the Chiss. And the Deep Core was almost completely uncharted until the Empire came along. During the Empire's reign it had a hold on virtually everything but Wild Space and the Unknown Regions, with territories like the Corporate Sector, Hutts and Hapans remaining autonomous for other reasons.

1. Coruscant is not humanity orgin. Humanity orgin in Star Wars has been lost to antiquity. Indeed, Coruscant was once inhabitated by an alien species.

2. Nar Shadaa is also a city planet, as are others.

3. Hutts space was never nothing more than an expression for the criminal organisation in Imperial times.

4. If EG satellites were unknown, why did the Jedi Archives have their records?

5. If over 80% of the galaxy is recorded in the archives, if WEG itself states that the Unknown regions consist of a few sectors of space that are poorly recorded, that isn't a large portion of the galaxy unexplored.

6. The Ssi-Ruuk were EG in nature.

PainRack wrote:1. Coruscant is not humanity orgin. Humanity orgin in Star Wars has been lost to antiquity. Indeed, Coruscant was once inhabitated by an alien species.

Not the evolutionary homeworld no, but the "adopted" homeworld, from which human culture and civilization spread to the rest of the galaxy.

3. Hutts space was never nothing more than an expression for the criminal organisation in Imperial times.

I beg to differ. In TPM, it is clearly stated that Tatooine is owned by the Hutts. While the Empire maintained a presence in Hutt Space they allowed them to maintain a certain degree of autonomy. They actually have a defined territorial area, with Nal Hutta and Nar Shadda the capitol and other worlds like Ylseia for the power base.

4. If EG satellites were unknown, why did the Jedi Archives have their records?

Not unknown to SW. Unknown to us.

5. If over 80% of the galaxy is recorded in the archives, if WEG itself states that the Unknown regions consist of a few sectors of space that are poorly recorded, that isn't a large portion of the galaxy unexplored.

Recorded and explored are not the same thing. With a telescope you can record star systems, but it's insanely difficult to plot hyperspace routes.

6. The Ssi-Ruuk were EG in nature.

No they're not. The "Ssi-Ruuk Star Cluster" is very much a part of the Unknown Regions and very much a part of the main galaxy.

Thanks Lazy Raptor

Actually I had to use my .txt novellisations to get that all out (you sometimes overlook the quotes when reading, but I used "search" which does not overlook anything )
The precise world count and the wide distribution of worlds across the Galaxy in the quote from TPM is perhaps one of the most useful things out there

Lazy Raptor wrote:

3. Hutts space was never nothing more than an expression for the criminal organisation in Imperial times.

I beg to differ. In TPM, it is clearly stated that Tatooine is owned by the Hutts. While the Empire maintained a presence in Hutt Space they allowed them to maintain a certain degree of autonomy. They actually have a defined territorial area, with Nal Hutta and Nar Shadda the capitol and other worlds like Ylseia for the power base.

I doubt it. There's a Imperial Customs officer on Nar Shadda in Hutts Gambit, although the Empire does not appear to run the world at all. The space itself is most definitely Imperial in nature, as Imperial decrees, customs and duties apply. The lack of an Imperial garrison and a planetary governor only suggest that it was a "Free port" in the literal term, where anything and everything goes.

Not unknown to SW. Unknown to us.

That's nonsense. We knew that there were satellite galaxies from BTM and Curtis Saxton had them on his site before TPM and AOTC.

[Q]Recorded and explored are not the same thing. With a telescope you can record star systems, but it's insanely difficult to plot hyperspace routes.[/Q]
Yet, any tom dick and harry could jump into the Unknown regions to avoid Imperial attention.

Page isn't showing up.

Lazy Raptor wrote:I beg to differ. In TPM, it is clearly stated that Tatooine is owned by the Hutts.

Total red herring irrelevency. The Republic is both chronologically and constitutionally distinct from the Empire, which to boot it stated to be expansionist.

Lazy Raptor wrote:While the Empire maintained a presence in Hutt Space they allowed them to maintain a certain degree of autonomy. They actually have a defined territorial area, with Nal Hutta and Nar Shadda the capitol and other worlds like Ylseia for the power base.

Incorrect. Hutt Space is a region (ref: Essential Guide to Planets and Moons), but there's no evidence to suggest the Hutt syndicates themselves exercised soveriegn authority over it. Furthermore, the Essential Chronology states on page 29 that "Moff Sarn Shild proclaimed that the Hutts' lawless territory would benefit from stricter Imperial control." The Imperial Sourcebook informs us that a Moff Governor's military authority over naval and army resources extends only within his own sector, and moreover the use of the word "stricter" suggests Imperial control was already in place. The same Imperial Sourcebook also informs us that the "preferred option to let a plent run itself much as it has for years, but maintaining a visible Imperial presence so that the rulers know who their ultimate master is." The corruption of the local Imperial administration and the blind-eye turned toward the criminal exploits of the Hutt syndicates does not change the fact that the Empire directly ruled Hutt space.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Not unknown to SW. Unknown to us.

Incorrect. Although knowledge of it was not detailed, Rishi of the Rishi Maze galactic satellite was depicted in Dark Force Rising, and the Sith War comic features a view of a galaxy (almost certainly the galactic primary) from Dantooine which, according to Dr. Saxton is impossible unless the planet is outside and somewhat removed from the galactic disk.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Recorded and explored are not the same thing. With a telescope you can record star systems, but it's insanely difficult to plot hyperspace routes.

Again absurd. The same star map in Attack of the Clones showed gravitational distortion caused by solar masses, and cataloging the existance of stellar objects and quantifying their graivtational effects gives you all the information necessary to navigate hyperspace. In fact, all information indicates navicomputers do nothing except simply plot a path away from known gravity wells, which means cataloged objects and knowing their mass. We know this is recorded in the Jedi Archives.

The Empire during the period leading to the Battle of Hoth was able to dispatch probe droids to every probable site of the Rebel base throughout the galaxy. Exploration is clearly simple. And A Guide to the Star Wars Universe informs us that "Some of these places [the Unknown Regions] are known to the Empire, the Rebellion, and even fringe society groups, but they remain hidden from the galaxy at large."

Difficulty of hypernavigation would necessitate several things, firstly, that the Unknown Regions are choked with unobservable gravity wells, caused by invisible masses. Please prove these exist. Secondly, if that were true and the Rebel Alliance were capable of hiding there, the probe droid search would've been futile.

Astronavigation is a minor problem perhaps only significant to specific locales of the Unknown Regions, but not the majority of it.

Lazy Raptor wrote:No they're not. The "Ssi-Ruuk Star Cluster" is very much a part of the Unknown Regions and very much a part of the main galaxy.

Incorrect. The Ssi-ruuvi Star Cluster is located beyond a galactic arm, and judging from the artistic rendering and the fact that the three-dimensional galaxy is in essence being depicted in a 2-D cartoon/road map which only shows the galactic primary, the Ssi-ruuvi Star Cluster is probably located in the cloud of globular clusters beyond the rim of the galactic disk and bulge.

IIRC Hutt Space is a client state to the empire, not directely governed according to the ISB.

The Empire also maintains a number of "client states" - regions of space almost entirely controlled by another economic or political entity, yet ultimately loyal and subservient to the Empire. The Corporate Sector, under the control of the Corporate Sector Authority, is one such client state, as is the infamous area of the galaxy known as Hutt Space.

Quite odd, considering that the sector containing Nal Hutta and Nar Shaddaa has her own Moff Governor. A possibility is that there is a regional government controlled by the Hutts that the Moff Governors must take into consideration. Another possibility is Hutt Space herself has a Moff in an advisory/supervisor position.

Hutt Space does not maintain the autonomy of the Corporate Sector, in any case.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Quite odd, considering that the sector containing Nal Hutta and Nar Shaddaa has her own Moff Governor. A possibility is that there is a regional government controlled by the Hutts that the Moff Governors must take into consideration. Another possibility is Hutt Space herself has a Moff in an advisory/supervisor position.

Hutt Space does not maintain the autonomy of the Corporate Sector, in any case.

At least not on paper. In actual fact it seems they've worked out a look the other way system with the local Imperial Officials.

Stas Bush- change all the blue text on that page to yellow, or teal, or some neutral color. It is very hard to read as is.

Press CTRL-A to highlight the text so it is easier to read.

YT300000, a re-design is on the way.
Illuminatus Primus

The same star map in Attack of the Clones showed gravitational distortion caused by solar masses, and cataloging the existance of stellar objects and quantifying their graivtational effects gives you all the information necessary to navigate hyperspace

That's a good one
Giving the ease Obi-Wan reached a planet deleted from the archive means that hyperspace routing (if you have a navicomputer, and don't rely on buoys or whatever) is easy (when you have the gravity location data).[/quote]

Critique:

A: The Empire spans a million worlds, as stated by Grand Moff Tarkin in the canon ANH novellization:

You may want to include the "twelve million major systems" from Dark Empire, and the fifty million "colonies, dependencies, and posessions" from the Imperial Sourcebook (ISB maintains that yes, the Empire has one million members in accordance with Tarkin).

A: Most probably, although population can vary. Some may be just mere colonies with little population. Keep in mind that, although the Empire is a Galactic state, it still does not encompass all of the inhabited systems of the Galaxy, although it's rule has been greatly expanded since the Republic.

The million quote is known via the ISB to refer to only members, with 50 million odd colonies and such. If you want to discuss property, the Mining Guild had billions of uninhabited worlds in the spiral arms for raw-material mining alone, according to the canonical AOTC ICS.

About Imperial expansion: do not discount the possibility the for political reasons, more worlds may have been allowed membership than under the Republic.

Q: But the Empire spans only a tiny fraction of the Galaxy! See this quote from the ANH novel: "The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion."
And this one, too: "Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy."

A million star systems is approximately over a hundred-thousandth of the galaxy's whole volume (supported by the "tiny fraction" bit). There's nothing implying "1 million star systems" always means all the Imperial members. The Chommel Sector of Naboo contained 30 million barren stars, and the same interpretation of this can follow. The map most likely focuses on a small area of the sector where the Death Star was being deployed at that time. I see you noticed these problems, but quoting the canonical AOTC ICS, as well as EU sources speaking of the several hundred billion star systems in the galaxy may be additional support.

On the Map: Criticisms that "Kamino is within the galactic disk" are totally baseless. Firstly, a galactic map on a two-dimensional surface does not account for the three-dimensional galactic structure, nor objects behind the disk.

Interestingly, the galactic map must be oversimplified or an artistic interpretation without scale concerns, as the Rishi Maze cannot be located that close to the disk literally, or it'd be shearing it apart from tidal forces. Astrophysical concerns rule that out. This fact, combined with "twelve parsecs" which is something around 50 light-years, IIRC, alone proves that Kamino is vastly beyond the galactic rim, and can probably be thought to be part of the Unknown Regions.

Coruscant alone cannot have less than several hundred trillion inhabitants. This is simple observation.

The galactic population is probably on the order of a quintillion or so.

YT300000 wrote:Stas Bush- change all the blue text on that page to yellow, or teal, or some neutral color. It is very hard to read as is.

May I suggest um...white?

If you have to highlight a text to read it, then it isn't worth reading.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

YT300000 wrote:Stas Bush- change all the blue text on that page to yellow, or teal, or some neutral color. It is very hard to read as is.

May I suggest um...white?

But he wants there to be a noticable difference between what's already white, and the rest. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't have made that stuff blue in the first place.

Illuminatus Primus

You may want to include the "twelve million major systems" from Dark Empire, and the fifty million "colonies, dependencies, and posessions" from the Imperial Sourcebook (ISB maintains that yes, the Empire has one million members in accordance with Tarkin).

Now that I know that all, I decided not to include it for one reason only. I am in a debate (more or less) with Mr. Anderson. You know his approach to canon&EU, so do I. Although all of this is quite consistent with the canon, I will try to avoid any possibility of nitpicking on "overuse of EU materials".

The million quote is known via the ISB to refer to only members

Yes, and I did not use ISB for the same purpose. I decided rather to show the simple fact that Tarkin's quote already implies the million systems are not small-population colonies, but member worlds. Otherwise the quote is senseless.

do not discount the possibility the for political reasons, more worlds may have been allowed membership than under the Republic

I shall mention that. Eventhough it seems that the Empire lost some of the Republic worlds (that is EU stuff, so nevermind).

There's nothing implying "1 million star systems" always means all the Imperial members.

Exactly as I stated, thinking that 1 million accidental systems near Alderaan on the map is the same million Tarkin spoke of, is absurd and illogical, not to mention inconsistent with lots of canon quotes.

The map most likely focuses on a small area of the sector where the Death Star was being deployed at that time.

Exactly what I said: this are accidental star systems close to Alderaan.

but quoting the canonical AOTC ICS, as well as EU sources speaking of the several hundred billion star systems in the galaxy may be additional support.

Good. I shall mention the EU notice.
One note on AOTC ICS - now although I know it's canon, I will not use it as such, to avoid nitpicks from Mr. Anderson about the ICS (which he thinks is inconsistent with the canon basing on ONE misinterpretation of canon events on Kamino!!).
I'll rather make a special page devoted to that, although this particular "Kamino shot" is discussed in my Starship weapons page.

as the Rishi Maze cannot be located that close to the disk literally

This is a 3D map, the Rishi Maze may be in fact bigger and located a lot "deeper" into the map, which would give the necessary distance. Or is it still impossible?

combined with "twelve parsecs" which is something around 50 light-years, IIRC, alone proves that Kamino is vastly beyond the galactic rim

Of course.

Coruscant alone cannot have less than several hundred trillion inhabitants. This is simple observation.

Right. Gotta note that too. I think there is a precise count somewhere, but I can't find it

The galactic population is probably on the order of a quintillion or so.

Systems can be sparsely populated. Tatooine, for example, may have something like 1-2 billions if not less. Probably a lot less - few big cities, several millions. The planet is barely inhabitable. Although the whole galactic population would probably be measured in quadrillions, the Republic population was measured in trillions. The difference between Republic and Empire member system count though nihilates the Republic estimates. Gotta note that.

I don't think that the hutts "own" Tatooine in the proprietary sense, but more in the way that the mob "owns" Sicily.

Whether the Hutts own Tatooine "properly" or not, it is beyond Republic borders and law, as stated by Shmi. Slavery is forbidden in the Republic, unlike the generations of slavery on Tatooine. And on Tatooine Republic currency is not used. Tatooine's not a Republic planet.

Yes, but in the interim the Empire may have annexed it.

Captain Chewbacca,
the Empire of course has it annexed or conquered (which is unlikely ) between AOTC and ANH, as by ANH Tatooine is an Imperial posession. It's stated in ANH novel, if not obviously clear from the movie

Stas Bush wrote:*snip*

You seem to be claiming the Empire has less than a million inhabited systems(based on non-explicit colloquial wording that I see no point in taking seriously), this is ludicrous, they have 1 million member worlds, and most member worlds aren't just a single planet or system, many of them have several, thats why the WEG explicitly says they have 1 million member worlds plus 50 million colonies and protectorates as well.
WEG also explicitly mentions the population of the Empire, 100 Quadrillion sapient beings(and the Empire also doesn't classify many alien species as sapient even, wookies for instance where not considered sapient and therefore allowed as slaves).

His Divine Shadow

You seem to be claiming the Empire has less than a million inhabited systems

Nop. Not even for a moment. Some of Imperial worlds (Tatooine) are sparsely populated - perhaps that is my note, but certainly the Empire has at the very least a million inhabited worlds.
I already stated that Tarkin's quote from ANH novel cannot refer to UNinhabited worlds, since it renders the quote senseless: see my quote:

Full members of the Empire may really be counted only in dozens of thousands of systems. Although that makes the Tarkin quote somewhat senseless - he was speaking about making the systems totally subdued to Imperial rule by the battlestation, which is the final link in the chain (probably other links are normal means of subjugation: warships, surface forces etc., and the Force maybe).
If Tarkin was including colonies with incredibly small populations, that would make no sense. That is why I think Tarkin was referring to perhaps sparsely populated, but nonetheless member systems of the Empire.

Where did I say the Empire has less than a million inhabited worlds? I even disregarded the possibility of Tarkin's "million" consisting of colonies and member worlds, making it ONLY of member worlds, because otherwise:
1) Tarkins quote is senseless, colonies with small population don't need to be subjugated and bound under Empire's rule
2) That would come to contradict the EU

In fact, I considered the Imperial and Republic system count and given the only possible explanation which provides sense - the Empire expanded from the Republic's "hundred thousand worlds" (or "dozens of thousands of systems") to the exact "million systems".
That is the only possible explanation, I think, whether the worlds were conquered or simply annexed by the Empire, whatever.

and most member worlds aren't just a single planet or system
1.000.000 systems with 2-3 worlds each would lead to 2.500.000 worlds (ok, I took an avg)
MYW, that would lead the Imperial expansion to be over 10 times it's territory. Still possible though.

Full members of the Empire may really be counted only in dozens of thousands of systems.

========================
One Million Member Worlds and 50 million Colonies, Protectorates and Governorships
========================
-Star Wars The Roleplaying Sourcebook

No, it's one million as it says here, there's no point nor reason for claims to the contrary.

Although that makes the Tarkin quote somewhat senseless

No it doesn't, the problem is you are over intreprepting everything that is said, it's just a colloquialism.

I see no reason as to why the Republic should be that much smaller, I am positive the Republic was also said to have a million member worlds, just because Jedi Knight operations extended to around a a hundred thousand worlds this means that the Republic somehow must have less worlds? Not to mention the vaugeness of that statement, I wouldn't use it myself beyond to show that the republic was a big place.

I never saw any huge difference in the amount of worlds between the Republic and Empire, or reason to believe so, the Empire expanded yes but I doubt the amount of worlds was even over 2 million that where added.

I've never seen a reason for these debates either seeing that the quotes in existance are so overwhelmingly clear:
1) WEG - 1 million member worlds - 51 million various worlds
2) Dark Empite - Twelve million major systems

These two facts coupled with the colloquial phrasings from other sources seem pretty solid to me.

Where did I say the Empire has less than a million inhabited worlds?

It was you who said this right?
"That implies that the Empire can't have 1.000.000 fully inhabited member systems."

But they do.

I even disregarded the possibility of Tarkin's "million" consisting of colonies and member worlds, making it ONLY of member worlds, because otherwise

Tarkin was just saying impressive sounding stuff, it needs not be heeded in any other way than the colloquialism that it is, only things that need be bothered with are explicit figures, everything else I've seen is just vauge stuff thats mentioned in the same spirit as one might say "there's millions of grains of sand on this planet" even though the number is far far far higher.

and most member worlds aren't just a single planet or system
1.000.000 systems with 2-3 worlds each would lead to 2.500.000 worlds (ok, I took an avg)
MYW, that would lead the Imperial expansion to be over 10 times it's territory. Still possible though.

But it's 51 million, not 2.5 million or 1 million or anything like that, and 12 million of those worlds where big enough to be thought of as major worlds.

All this guessing around based on loose and vauge wordings is utterly useless when we have the figures in the forms of dry enyclopedic facts.
I think this issue is as cut'n'dry as the issue on the lenght of an ISD(1.6km)