Fixing the Plot Holes in ROTJ

[MKSheppard]

This is a very old thread from ASVS in 1999 by ChuckG and
various others, and I've always kept it on my drive, as one
of my favorite all time threads:

2. If you're gonna set up a shield generator on a planet, kill
everything within 10km of it with a turbolaser bombardment and
build your shield gennie in the middle of the wasteland, with barbed
wire, robot guns, combat droids, and Stormtroopers regularly
patrolling the perimeter. Let's see the Rebels cross 10km in
which they're out in the open and under continuous fire
from E-Web emplacements. (thank you, ChuckG)

Good against a direct assult. But what about a sabotage assult.

ChuckG:

In order to sabotage something, you first have to get inside it.

How is your sabotage team is going to *without being detected* cross over ten
klicks of completely barren desert in the face of continual patrolling,
mines, wide-area searchlights, lifescanners, probe droids, seismo, thermo,
urea sensors, you name it? Remember, the Emperor committed an "entire legion
of his best troops" to Endor, so we can assume that a *large* amount of
resources are available for this highly important project. Don't skimp on
the security.

(BTW, creating a 20-kilometer wide circle... or a 200-kilometer wide circle,
for that matter... of completely barren desert is easy. Orbital bombardment
of the area before you build the shield generator right in the middle of the
'cleared zone'.)

(Note -- the reason I use ten klicks as the radius of the circle is because on
Earth-sized planet, the horizon is approximately five klicks away for a man
standing on the ground. Of course, the shield generator has some nice high
windows to watch from... so they can see all the way out to the edge of the
desert.)

Basically, covert external intrusion is now effectively impossible. You
*just can't* sneak over open, searchlighted ground with no cover and
continually patrolling troops. It would be like trying to "hide in shadows"
while standing on a brightly lit pool table. And if the security commander
is smart enough to require regular and frequent check-ins (and don't talk to
me about 'radio operator boredom', I have droids who can handle routine
code-check-in acknowledgements, even to the point of identifying the
voiceprint... so don't think to mug the guard and take his codebook either.),

So you can't kill the sentries either without being detected... it takes
*time* to hike ten klicks, and in that time the first patrol you whack is
going to miss at least one check-in. Plus, not only are the patrolling
troops watching the ground, but so are the patrolling probe droids... and the
sensors buried in the ground, right next to the mines... and the
searchlights... and the gunner emplacements on the shield generator tower
itself, which have a clear LOS to every square centimeter of that beaten
zone.

So as soon as anything roughly human-sized is seen moving... red alert. Call
out the reaction force. Send out the probe droids to check. Etc.

Forget it. A Defel wraith ain't sneaking through this. Special-ops types
sneak up on places via crawlin' through the weeds and darkness... so I just
make damn sure that there are absolutely no weeds. Or darkness.

The Rebels are quite good at sabotage and espionge.

Which is why it behooves us to be good at site security and counterespionage.

Having taken care of external security as above, the remaining problem is
internal security.

OK. Use only trusted, *really* security-vetted people. After all, this
shield generator is the vital element of the Death Star II project, so you
use Personnel Reliability Programs here that are normally found only in USAF
nuclear missile bunkers. In short, you get REALLY REALLY paranoid about the
background checks, and you put internal security snitches all through the
crew, and you have troops in place to breathe down the necks of the snitches,
etc...

And sine this is a personal project of Lord Vader and the Emperor, we could
have them use the Force to spot traitorous shield generator crewmen. We can
safely assume that between Force adepts and advanced Imperial truth-detecting
technologies, if you *really try* to get yourself a hand-picked crew of
loyalists, you *will* find all the moles. (And then you still have internal
security troops inside to breathe down their necks, of course. Stormtroopers
are incorruptible, it says so in the manual. *g*)

So, the risk of sabotaging the base via 'moles'is now reduced to the absolute
minimum. The direct special-ops assault has also been obviated, because not
even a Defel wraith can sneak across a flat desert under searchlights with no
cover.

So the last risk of sabotage is 'infiltration'... i.e., the saboteurs try to
gain access to the base as authorized visitors.

So you institute a very simple rule for the shield generator crews for the
duration of the Endor Project, which is after all limited in scope.

Nobody Goes In. Nobody Goes Out. Build a well-stocked base facility and make
those guys live inside it like a nuclear submarine crew. No visitors, no
friendly natives, no call girls, no pizza delivery men, no mail shuttles,
NOBODY.

If you simply never open the door to let any strangers in, then by definition
strange people do not get let in the door.

And if you *have* to send a supply shuttle, you make stormtroopers ride in
the cargo hold and sweep all the boxes for stowaways *before* the shuttle
leaves the mother ship, and you then handle all the unloading at the other
end with droids, not people. And you have all supply shuttles dock with the
_Executor_ first for "stowaway checking", instead of just flying directly to
the planet... and what's more important, you have the tracking crews at the
shield generator *watch* the shuttle dock with the _Executor_ first on their
scopes, and have the _Executor_ call away the "all-clear" on them not just
with a radio code but with a physical boarding and searching. Anybody can
steal a codebook. Far fewer people can convincingly pretend to be just an
Imperial supply shuttle when they are required to land in the _Executor's_
docking bay and submit to a full stormtrooper inspection.

And if you *have* to send a supply shuttle, you make stormtroopers ride in the cargo hold and sweep all the boxes for stowaways *before* the shuttle leaves the mother ship, and you then handle all the unloading at the other end with droids, not people.

This is where it gets a little rough. We know that anti-scanner technology
exists; the Falcon had several bays which were impenetrable to scanners.
What's more, they didn't show up as "blank spots" or anything so conspicuous;
they just looked like the rest of the floor.

So imagine this scenario. You rig an Imperial shuttle with just such a device;
say, enough to hold two or three well-trained saboteurs. You dock with the
Executor, using a stolen clearance code. You, of course, have Rebels in disguise
as troopers in the cargo hold. Once you dock, they get off (and at this point,
they're off to find a way off that ship; but let's not get into that) and your
scanning crew comes aboard.

The scanning crew thoroughly checks the shuttle and finds nothing wrong, of
course. It is then sent down to the shield generator. At this point, your
security is *shot.* Two or three people against the entire base may seem
like bad odds, but if you can sneak two or three people in, even they can
do a lot of damage. Or worse, a timed anti-matter bomb, which would eliminate
the need for actual human risk.

This is a good policy, but if you allow ANYONE to enter the base, you're
looking at a security breach. I think a completely closed policy is best,
with not even the stormtroopers on patrol allowed inside the generator itself.
They'll have their barracks and whatnot, and we know that they can't be
kidnapped and have Rebels swapped in for the reasons you explained; although,
I wonder if a voice synthesizer isn't beyond Rebel technology?

Good thinking, but several points.

One, when the shuttle docks with the _Executor_, the only thing on it is
supposed to be the flight crew... it's the _Executor's_ stormtroopers who
will then take station in the cargo bay, to 'escort' the supply crates from
orbit down to the surface. For the first leg of the trip (distant star
system to _Executor_), the shuttle will be made to fly with a minimum crew.
The presence of anyone else on board will be grounds for automatic suspicion.

Two, as far as 'sensor-shielded' areas of the ship go... I think it's
accepted that the scanning crew that the DS1 was going to put *inside* the
_Falcon_ would have found those shielded compartments, because those things
are not infallible and cannot be shielded from a point-blank search.

Three, and this is the most important point -- *nobody is allowed to get off
the shuttle when it hits the landing pad anyway.*

All unloading is to be done by cargo droids. The crew stays on the shuttle.
The escort troopers stay on the shuttle. Anybody gets off the shuttle and
tries to walk across the landing pad... bad idea. Bad bad idea. Armed
reception committee, ya know.

So even if you're hiding behind a secret panel on the shuttle, you're SOL...
the only way to get off that shuttle is to look like a cargo container (which
were all individually scanned and searched and then sealed VERY intensely
back on the _Executor_, and have then had the _Executor's_ own stormtroopers
sitting on them all the way down from orbit to make sure nobody put something
new in them)... or to look like a cargo droid (all of which must be put back
on the shuttle and accounted for in inventory before being allowed to take
off anyway.)

About the only way left is to use an entire fake shuttle crew and detonate a
nuclear bomb in the shuttle while on the landing pad... but a weapon of mass
destruction packing that much energy can't credibly be hidden from the
physical/sensor search that the _Executor_ ran the shuttle through up there,
can it?

Agreed - but if they had been implemented, the Battle of Endor might never have even existed.

You damn skippy. So far I've brainstormed *multiple* ways that the Battle of
Endor could have been a crushing Imperial victory, and the sad thing is that
all of the tactics involved are NOT strokes of military genius. (I thought
of them. I am not a military genius. Therefore, by definition, they are not
strokes of military genius, QED.)

From external scanning, yes. However, the 'internal' scanning crew would
probably have found them... sensor-masking can only do so much.

Are you sure? Are you so sure, that you'd bet the Death Star II on it?

Well, if I'm feeling really paranoid, I can always demand that all shuttles be
*physically* taken apart and searched.

Plus, there's also some other basic precautions -- such as requiring the base
that the shuttle allegedly took off from to use the HoloNet to upload FULL
biographical data on the shuttle crew before the shuttle arrives. If you
don't have the face, fingerprints, retinal prints, etc. of the guys who are
supposed to be flying that shuttle... and if those data were not uploaded
along the ultra-secure comm link from the Imperial Super-Secret Strategic
Communicatons Center, not just from any old ordinary base... well then!

Or the even stupider high school trick... use only those shuttle crews that
are *personally* known to the _Executor's_ command staff. (In addition to
all other precautions, of course).

Not to mention, of course, that a weapon of mass destruction large enough to
do the job you're thinking of tends to show up on scanners a lot more
distinctly than, oh, a few ordinary people hiding in a box.

What if you brung along a few people on your shuttle, quietly neutralized the
> stormtroopers who came to inspect,

And just what, precisely, did you use to "neutralize" an entire platoon of
stormtroopers before *any* of them could just gasp out two words over his
helmet comlink?[/b]

Especially given that procedure is 20 guys go on board to check, and 10 guys
stay with the cargo on the trip down while the other ten come back out to the
_Executor_ to report the all-clear? [/b]

took their armor, etc. and then let the
shuttle go? The weapon would devastate the
shield generator.

See above. You not only have to silently kill a whole bunch of guys ALL of
whom have radios wired directly into their mouths, you have to impersonate
them *and their knowledge* so well that I can't tell the difference between
you and them even when I'm talking to you.

Dude, this is beyond the capacities even of Dominion shapeshifters, let alone
Rebel scum.

PPS -- and if I want to go beyond the bounds of mere paranoia all the way up
to rampant lunacy, I also send in some guard or assassin droids along with
the troopers. The real bitch of combat droids is their communicators are
built directly into their brains... and these guys were instructed to
maintain *constant* communications with me for the duration of the inspection
trip...

(ambulatory dead-man-switch alarms, in other words.)

What about this:-

1) BDZ the proposed site of the shield generator, out to arange of say
one hundred kilometers?

2) heavily mine the area, deploy sensor grids, etc,.

3) Build your shield generator with heavy shielding for the building
itself, surround the building with multiple layers of autonomous
weapons emplacements

4) Patrol the entire area with battle-droids, set to destroy any and
all life-forms or droids which are not part of the security network.

5) If you have to have any ground crew at all, they are confined to
the shield generator building for the ENTIRE duration of the exercise,
and sealed inside the building with all necessary supplies and various
battle-droids to guard/watch them.

6) isolate the entire installation from ALL forms of communication, so
that the droids are protected from any attempts at slicing.

For the DS itself in orbit do the following:-

isolate the entire star system by deploying several dozen Star
Destroyers and SSDs through the system. Liberally populate the system
with Golan Arms weapons platforms.

Do not bring any raw materials into the system from outside,
(starships can operate independently for four years so NO resupply is
necessary). Even if entire planets/moons in the system have to be
broken down piecemeal for raw materials, there should be enough raw
materials in-system for all manufacturing.

All resources which cannot be obtained within the system itself are to
be delivered to a point OUTSIDE the system. The shuttle drops all RAW
MATERIAL or electronic components into vacuum, where it is tractored
into the system and then processed.

I'm not. As can be seen above, the precautions I intend to take are both
extensive and expensive.

Indeed, and the question is if the Empire can afford it. A silly question, but
the Emperor needed to commission Prince Xizor to help transporting the needed
materials to Endor, and he is not the handpicked loyal servant you would want.

But the corollary to your statement also applies... the enemy had damn well
better not underestimate *me*.

So true, given all you security measures, chances are I wouldn't get far
unless I held a position like Admirial Zaarin with the TIE Defenders. Then
again, that Rebel witch, Winter, sabotaged the Coruscant shield generator
without even stepping foot on the planet. They're a crafty bunch. But, her
tactic might not hold on a planet like Endor.

Certainly the rebels would dare to attack, which is the only problem here. If
you want to create a full proof defense net, then you're plan will work. But
the purpose of Endor was to lore the Rebels into a trap, which is why the
Emperor devised such an operation rather than just finishing Death Star II.
If the rebels know they can win against such an invincible target they're
going to flee from system to system, thereby causing you to waste more time
and resources and ships into hunting them down. Is that what you want? If it
is, then more power to you.

It's better to let them come to you. In order for the enemy to come to you,
you need to have appealing. His majesty, Emperor Palpatine, had the right
idea. However, I just follow the old maxim "Never put your eggs in one
basket." and had either a back-up or dummy shield generator to lore the
Rebels to instead of the real McCoy (which would be well consealed in the
mountains). Also, in hindsight, I would had made sure to had move the project
on a completely inhabitable. But, I suspect that the Emperor had reasons for
choosing Endor, maybe a certain raw material that could only be found
there... but, I don't know.

Well, please note that most of the material resources (the troops, the speeder
bike patrols, the _Executor_, the base, the availability of orbital
bombardment,etc.) were already there. I just proposed using them in a
different manner.

All I'd need is a few dozen probe droids, a few dozen crates of mines, and
some stationary sensor emplacements. In short, an infinitesimal material
expenditure compared to the masses of material we're already moving around to
build the DS.

Well, please note that all of my massive security procedures can't really be
seen until the Rebel strike force is already *on* the planet... at which
point, they're screwed, blued, and tatooed anyway.

But yes, my 'overt' approach is not ideally suited to the specific Endor Trap
Mission.

However, here's what *was* ideally suited -- and what the Empire did not use
anyway.

Required resources:

One deliberately leaked codebook. (Already present)

One _Executor_-class SSD, with normal complement (Already present)

One Interdictor cruiser (Easily obtainable)

One commanding officer with a functioning brain cell. (Not actually present
at Endor, unfortunately)

By utilizing a basic technique known as "disinformation", the Rebel sabotage
team can be absolutely pinpointed.

It's very simple. Don't give them the real codebook. Have the Bothan spies
give them a clearance code that is used by *nobody else in the entire
Imperial Navy*. It's a special code, created entirely for them. (And how
are they going to know that it's not the right one? A clearance code is just
an arbitrary alphanumeric character string. If the Bothan spies could be
easily fed so many lies already, feeding them one more lie should not have
been hard.)

Anyway, the Rebels have been given a "clearance code" that is unique to this
particular deception operation. In short, anybody who shows up with that code
is, by definition, the Rebel sabotage force and nobody else. Disinformation.

OK, so this takes care of ID'ing the Rebel sabotage team. They've labeled
themselves by using the code I leaked to them, along with all the other crap I
spoon-fed them via those Bothan spies.

So the plan is... sit and wait. Just sit and wait. Eventually, the Rebels
will show up. When they do show up, you *will* know it because they used the
flagged code. (And also because Lord Vader can detect the presence of Luke
Skywalker, but we weren't counting on that in advance...)

And when the Rebels show up, do three very simple things.

a) Tell the shield generator that they are NOT to drop the shield under any
circumstances whatsoever, until Lord Vader personally tells them that they
can. Congrats, Endor is now safe. It is physically impossible for the Rebel
sabotage team to reach Endor.

b) Remember that Interdictor cruiser? What do you think he's doing right now?
Yup, that's right -- anchoring the Rebel shuttle in realspace. Forget the
hyper-escape, Rebel scum, Interdictors *live* to do this.

OK, so now we have the Rebel sabotage team... jeez, it's a supply shuttle. If
I can't capture a supply shuttle with a complete surprise advantage, an
Interdictor cruiser, the _Executor_, and the _Executor's_ full fighter
complement, I am too incompetent to live.

c) So the shuttle is tractored, hauled into the _Executor's_ hangar bay, and
set upon by Lord Vader and a legion of the Emperor's best troops... in the
*hangar bay*, NOT on the Endor forest moon.

d) So we restage the _Tantive IV_ boarding sequence, capture the Rebels we
wanted captured alive, take Luke Skywalker alive to "meet" the Emperor, and
shoot the rest in the head and throw the dead bodies out the airlock.

And please note, this entire rigmarole is required ONLY because the Emperor
and Lord Vader want Skywalker taken alive. Had there been no need to take
live prisoners, the plan is even simpler:

a) Wait for the Rebel shuttle to show up and use the doctored code.

b) Smile and wave at the shuttle as it goes by, acknowledging their code over
the radio just like everything is normal and not letting them get worried.

c) At point of closest approach to the _Executor_, just haul off and smack the
friggin' shuttle with the heavy turbolasers. Sur-PRISE!

(Note -- as we all remember from ROTJ, the shuttle's approach path took it so
close to the _Executor_ that they practically took the paint off the bridge
tower. They were sitting DUCKS...)

d) When an SSD cuts loose with the main firepower at point-blank range, and
you're in a shuttle... folks, it don't get much deader than that.

Anyway, sorry to go on and on, but one of my real hot buttons is the Battle
of Endor... simply because the script immunity was so frigging IMMENSE... I
mean, come on, there's ordinary villain mistakes and then there's REALLY
unbelievable villain mistakes.

I don't think that the Bothans were given the *real* code. The Imperial
officer noted that the shuttle used an *older* code. And, Vader told him to
give clearance... but why did he left the Rebels run all over the moon is
beyond me. The Imperials should have at least tracked their movement.

Otherwise, you have the right idea.

[Sharp-kun]

I like it

[Sarevok]

Has to be one of the best threads I read.

[Vympel]

How is this fixing the plotholes? It's changing the script so the Empire wins. While I love the Empire and hate the Rebellion (purely on an aesthetic basis, not moral), this is not fixing plotholes. You need to find a way for the ending and the central parts of the plot (the death of the Emperor, redemption of Vader, and victory of the Rebellion) to remain.

[K. A. Pital]

Agree with Vympel, this is not "fixing plotholes", but making the Empire win.
It is really not what someone would expect in "fixing plotholes", since when fixing one must keep with the main Star Wars idea:
1) Rebels win
2) Rebels win against all odds (shown in ANH, cont'd in ROTJ) - this is not something to throw out
3) Vader kills the Emperor
4) Luke-Vader-Emperor stuff must remain as it is essential to SW philosophy and Force issues
Therefore, a more reasonable way for the Rebels to win this battle must be found (although it would still be "against all odds" stuff), but not changing the outcome.
What can be changed - Jabba-Tatooine stuff. Not really essential, but really foolish - main Rebel leaders - inc. the last Jedi - go on a risky-risky mission on height of war to save a life of an unimportant ex-smuggler. They could've sent a squad of Rebel troopers and get Han out of there not endangering the lives of Luke and Leia most of all. That's a plot mistake.

P.S. I also dislike Rebels and love the Empire, and not on moral base either but on legitimacy of the Empire and the Imperial coolness (coolness is the word - not exactly aesthetic, but very cool).

[omegaLancer]

Basically I would have the Executor tractor the shuttle and take it into the hanger bay. Vader would be waiting with a detachment of the Emperor's red guards and storm trooper. After intense battle in the hanger bay where the Rebel commandos are slain and scores of Storm trooper, luke, leia and Chewie are captured.

Due to the shortage of workers, Chewie is sent to join the Wookies slaves ( in the Old Marvel Comics wookies were used to build the original Deathstar. So wouldn't they be used in the creation of the DSII), along with 3Ceepo and R2d2. While Leia, han and Luke are sent to the Emperors throne room.

The Emperor attempts to lure luke to the darkside, and to torture Han to incite him into losing control.

The rebel fleet arrives only to find the shield generator in place. The trap is sprung and a major space battle errupts, with the ISDs opening up with their Heavy TL batteries. Ship after the ship falls to the fire power of Empire ISDs.

While in the slave pits of the deathstar, Chewie incites his fellow slave to riote. Storm trooper are sent into crush the uprising.

R2d2 and 3ceepo are about to get their memory swipe and reprogram only to be saved by the action of iggy 80 as he attempts to reprogram the Deathstar droids to take over the station.

R2d2 hacks into the Deathstar Network, and open the doors of slave pit and the fighting spreads thru out the Deathstar.

Wookies, droids and stormtrooper battle while the emperor attempts one last ploy to turn Luke. HE reveals that he is luke Grandfather and had sired Vader and sent in motion the events leading to Anakin becoming Vader. To add further pressure to luke he inform luke that if he will not turn then he would sire a replace on Leia, his own grand daughter.

At this point both Vader and luke turn on the emperor, while R2d2 hacks into the controls of both DSII engines and superlaser, managing to turns the super laser on Endor, destroying both the planet ( yeah burn in hell ewoks) and shield generator.

With the shield down, the surviving rebel fighter attack the deathstar. Lando and Wedge manage to duplicate their run on the Hypermatter reactor, as Luke and Vader hurl the emperor to his death.

Both our heroes and the surviving Wookies slaves, manager to get to ahanger bay where an unmanned strike cruiser is waiting. Han and chewie manages to fly the Cruiser out of deathstar just as it explodes. Vader near death begs forgiven from his childern ..

Cut to scene of the remaining rebel rebel fleet using the shock of the imperial seeing the deathstar exploding and the impact of the emperor deaths to escape.

Meeting back with the rebel fleet, there is celebration of their victory but the rebel leading warn that this is just the beginning of a long and battle against the Empire, setting up for the next starwar movie....

The end

[Illuminatus Primus]

*yawn*

All I see is a bunch of tired Imp-wanking. Move along. Nothing to see here.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

... the idea is to try and let the Rebels win while making the Imps reasonably smart, right? Among other things, considering Chewbacca's recent Rebel affiliation, I don't think they'd have allowed him to join the slave pool. One Wookiee, more or less, is no different, and he's just a plain security risk. As an Imp, Wookiees aren't sentient to me, but they clearly aren't a pet dog or mouse either, I should think.

We aren't here to make a full fairy tale. The original story was adequate for a fairytale where you nod and take it. But we want realism and tragedy. So... this might be a three hour movie, OK?

I'd have the Executor tractor the shuttle into the bay. But the stormtroopers would blast the doors in ANH-style. They do pretty well (they did pretty well in ANH as I understand it) until they meet Luke, who kills them with his lightsaber until Vader intervenes. Eventually, like you said, they are all captured.

Chewbacca and the droids are kept under tight guard, complete with restraint bolts. They are out of the game.

The Rebel fleet arrives the next day. It is considerably larger than what really happened. They immediately notice that the shield is still up, there is an appropriately big battle fleet waiting for them, and the desert-like area surrounding the shield generator - obviously, the Imps have taken all the correct precautions after all.

The takedown can come in two forms, depending on whether Endor's shield is theater or planetary. If the shield is theater, there will be a Hoth style drop assault. If the shield is planetary, they would use Torpedo Sphere tactics, except they don't have one, or the necessary analysis gear, so they have to improvise the whole way.

Let's make it a theater shield. The Imps don't really care about the rest of Endor. The drop begins. The Rebs of course don't have heavy equipment. They have their A280 rifles, light repeaters, and some ground combat vehicles. Don't even dream about AT-ATs.

The Imps are smart this time. They blast the capships with HTLs, even while TIEs harass the drop. Just to make the whole battle even more tragic, the government forces get superior equipment (the Imperial Starfighter Corps is really unusual in that its primary gear is INFERIOR to the Rebellion it is facing.) They are TIE Defenders. More ships drop as the COMPETENTLY led Imperial force strafe and wheeze. The superlaser takes out Ackbar's flagship.

Show scenes of badly inexperienced Rebel pilots get shot down.

But the superlaser is not FULLY operational, or at least they didn't use enough oompf for this one. Ackbar stands up in a very badly damaged bridge, says something glorious, then dies. The superlaser shifts to other targets.

Cut-scene to the ground. It shows the old principle "Fire kills."

Countless Rebel deaths later, they finally manage to blow up the shield. Go back to the original story.

After the battle, celebrate, but be sure to show us what happened to Endor. Then show us the mourning of the dead.

This is the tragedy of Rebellion, the sacrifice of countless quadrillions to fight for their ends in the Galactic Civil War.

And Primus, I don't think an occasional wish that the Imps acted competently is "Imp-wanking." Besides, this is fun.

[MKSheppard]

All I see is a bunch of tired Imp-wanking. Move along. Nothing to see here.

This is just basic common sense, certainly, something we'd be using if
we were building an unstoppable superweapon....I wonder if we could
put Curtis LeMay in charge of the DSII and see what would happen...

[MKSheppard]

How is this fixing the plotholes? It's changing the script so the Empire wins.

As it should. Go look at ROTJ again, and marvel at the total stupidity of the
Empire in that movie. The base security is laughable, as is the way
Vader lets a bunch of rebel saboteurs onto the planet containing the
fucking shield generator for the DSII, without even attempting to track
their movements so they die well before they reach the shield generator...

[Stravo]

Wanna fix all the plot holes in the original trilogy?

"There goes another one."

"Hold your fire there are no life forms aboard."

"But sir - whats the harm in blasting it? Lord Vader ordered that we don't want any evidence anyway right?"

"You're right. Take it out."

End of trilogy and Luke whines for the rest of his life becoming a disillusioned drunk haning out at Toshi station living in Uncle Owen's and Aunt Beru's basment.

[MKSheppard]

Wanna fix all the plot holes in the original trilogy?

"There goes another one."

"Hold your fire there are no life forms aboard."

"But sir - whats the harm in blasting it? Lord Vader ordered that we don't want any evidence anyway right?"

"You're right. Take it out."

End of trilogy and Luke whines for the rest of his life becoming a disillusioned drunk haning out at Toshi station living in Uncle Owen's and Aunt Beru's basment.

LOL, so true so true....

Still, ROTJ was pretty substandard as far as "the evil master plan" went.
Surely the Empire had learned the dangers of being overconfident
with the DS I? At the very least, they could have built not one, but
TWO shield generators, and only told the Rebels about one (everything
about Endor was spoon fed to the Bothans by the Empire).....

At the very least, I wish the Empire hadn't been a bunch of retards in
that one. From their decisive demolishment of Echo Base in ESB to
their retarded chimpanzee-like performance in ROTJ.....ugh.

[MKSheppard]

A very good example of what I mean by "competence" in writing and
villian skills is in Timothy Zahn's Hand of Thrawn Duology, in the scene
where Luke tries raiding a Pirate base, but unknownst to him, the pirates,
alarmed by the increasing number of assholes like Kyp Durron graduating
from Luke's Jedi Academy, have taken the time to build a anti-jedi trap
room, consisting of a lot of tricks, and of course variable gravity, one
moment it's on/off, flips upside down, to the side, and goes up to 10x
then to zero gee, to keep a jedi disoreinted.

Luke was able to escape from that trap room in about 5 minutes, BUT -
it slowed him down long enough for the pirates to make a totally clean
escape and set the self destruct on the asteroid base, and luke barely
made it out of the base before it blew.

[Macross]

How is this fixing the plotholes? It's changing the script so the Empire wins.

As it should. Go look at ROTJ again, and marvel at the total stupidity of the
Empire in that movie. The base security is laughable, as is the way
Vader lets a bunch of rebel saboteurs onto the planet containing the
fucking shield generator for the DSII, without even attempting to track
their movements so they die well before they reach the shield generator...

You seem to forget that it was a TRAP!

[MKSheppard]

You seem to forget that it was a TRAP!

Then design the trap better, instead of just saying "Put your hands up
rebel scum!", you just laugh and turn the detonator plunger on
hundreds of claymores you've rigged around both the front
entrance and rear entrance.

*Bam*

No more rebel scum.

Y'know, the majority of ambushes/traps in military history involve lots
of fire being directed into a target that's totally unaware and doesn't
even know they're about to get hit...

[Stravo]

Perhaps we see a similar trap unfold in Ep. III that kills all the Jedi and so Palpy pulls out the tried and true tactic to take care of the rebels, except this time it fails. Just a thought.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Perhaps we see a similar trap unfold in Ep. III that kills all the Jedi and so Palpy pulls out the tried and true tactic to take care of the rebels, except this time it fails. Just a thought.

Two things.

Canon: Why would Palpatine be so deeply moronic to use the verbatim trick with people who all witnessed the fall of the Jedi?

Answer: He didn't.

EU: Xizor suggested the trap idea to Palpatine, and set it up so the freighter containing the plans, contracted by his company, would fall into Alliance hands.

[GySgt. Hartman]

Chewbacca and the droids are kept under tight guard, complete with restraint bolts. They are out of the game.

Still not quite what I would expect:
Rule #4:Shooting is not too good for my enemies.

[SCRawl]

I can forsee one problem with making the DS2 shield generator an unassailable fortress: no one would dare attempt to assail it. The whole point of building the DS2 was to draw the rebels out, to crush them once and for all. Sure the rebels would be desperate to destroy it, but foolish to the point of suicide? At least with the DS1 they had a chance, a plan, a hope.

Don't get me wrong -- I figure the Empire screwed the pooch big time and, IMHO, RotJ was a weak movie. But if there's no chance to win, the rebels have to wait for an opportunity, and there's no movie at all.

[Rogue 9]

Wookies, droids and stormtrooper battle while the emperor attempts one last ploy to turn Luke. HE reveals that he is luke Grandfather and had sired Vader and sent in motion the events leading to Anakin becoming Vader. To add further pressure to luke he inform luke that if he will not turn then he would sire a replace on Leia, his own grand daughter.

This would destroy the PG rating, I'm pretty sure.

[K. A. Pital]

The Empire's actions are weird in all movies, perfectly consistent with the Evil Overlord's Rules.
ANH, ESB and ROTJ all show one thing - Rebels win. Even at Hoth, this was not a big defeat. Just destroyed one base, not really that essential for the Rebels, 17 ships (that would be Galofree transports and X-wings - not something to be really proud of) & some snowspeeders. Imperials lost 3 AT-ATs on surface, and a Star Destroyer (one or maybe more) during the foolhardy asteroid chase and a few TIE Fighters. All main Rebel personnel escaped, including the most dangerous Jedi-wannbe. Having a rebel General (Solo) at hand, Vader gave him to Boba Fett. The Empire got virtually nothing from the whole operation. Except that Vader revealed Luke the big stuff. After a short while, the Rebels were in full power at Endor. Triumphed over Executor, kicked the Imperial fleet and utterly defeated the "best troops", be it a few battalions or an entire legion.

Actually I think illogical Imperial actions are a part of Lucas' concept. As the Ewoks triumphing over Imperial "best" troops. It's just Star Wars, it's a myth. Fixing "plotholes" would make it something else. Something more realistic. Like... "Aliens", for example - a Sci-fi movie praised for realism. Star Wars is not - it's where common sense does not apply.

[Vympel]

That ISD wasn't destroyed, it was damaged. Aliens is also not a realistic film. It's nothing but a collection of catastrophic human incompetence that gives the Aliens an advantage that they would never have if the Marines weren't led by idiots. Sound familiar?

[K. A. Pital]

Vympel,
yes, sounds familiar... Oh, OK, Aliens is not really a uber-realistic movie, but Star Wars is worse.

[Ghost Rider]

Vympel,
yes, sounds familiar... Oh, OK, Aliens is not really a uber-realistic movie, but Star Wars is worse.

Debateable, given that at NO point should the Marines be overtaken by things that must engage in HtH combat.

Literally while SW is not the paragon of realism...Aliens is a very poor example. In fact most Sci-Fi is because for some reason or another tech fails utterly 80% of the time to increase tension.

[K. A. Pital]

Ghost Rider

In fact most Sci-Fi is because for some reason or another tech fails utterly 80% of the time to increase tension

Yes, that is so. Well, but there still are movies with more realism than Star Wars.There's Hainlein's (may spell it wrong) "Starship Troopers" still. Not exactly 100% realism, but a good example. Probably one better than Aliens.