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The purpose of this thread is to ask the question "What advantages does the AT-ST give the Empire over a repulsorlift vehicle?"

According to the StarWars Incredible Cross-Sections book, this is the function of the AT-ST:

The scout walker, or All Terrain Scout Transport (AT-ST) walks easily through rugged terrain to carry out its missions. Reconnaissance, battle line support, and anti-personnel hunting make excellent use of the craft's armaments and capabilities. Fast than a full-sized AT-AT, the scout walker is also able to step through the denser terrain with greater ease, travelling through small canyons or forests that would stop an AT-AT. While the AT-AT's crush main Rebel defensive emplacements, AT-STs ferret out small pockets of resistance or the hiding places of enemy soldiers. Agile and quick, the scout walker is almost impossible to flee on foot, and the sight of patrolling AT-STs strike fear into isolated ground troops.

The book goes on to say that the AT-ST requires an expert pilot, powerful gyro stabilizers and a complex locomotion system to mimic the movements of a living creature, along with all the sensors, shocks, servos et cetera that go into it's legs and base.

This begs the obvious question. Why bother? From their descriptions and what we've seen of the technology, repulsorlift craft are much better suited for the scout and battle support roles that the AT-ST fills in the Imperial Army. Removing all the material that exists just to make the AT-ST able to get to A to B would free up alot of mass, not to mention the strength of repulsorlifts means that they could put heavy armor and armaments on the scout craft. Like any other mechas, AT-STs would be a hell of alot more complex and difficult to maintain than repulsorcraft, as more can go wrong with them. Plus, since the vehicle is a flying and hovering machine, it can handle all the terrain, plus terrain that the AT-ST can't handle, like flying over extremely rough mountains or over water.

So the question is, what do AT-STs offer that repulsorcrafts can't, thus making the Empire use them more?

Mines are designed to detect repulsers and detonate. An AT-ST won't set off that kind and less likely to step on mines due to small foot size. So Walker vehicles allow the Stormies to advance swiftly over a fortified position where air support is a no go due to shields.

The regular Imperial Army does use repulser or treaded based craft.

Ender wrote:Mines are designed to detect repulsers and detonate. An AT-ST won't set off that kind and less likely to step on mines due to small foot size. So Walker vehicles allow the Stormies to advance swiftly over a fortified position where air support is a no go due to shields.

But does that make up for all that said above? They could just as easily have mines that detect vibrations in the ground caused by the heavy footsteps of the AT-ST. The only difference is that the repulsorscout is flying around, so it's less likely to be hit by the explosion of said mine, while the AT-ST will have a much harder time getting away.
Also, there is no reason why the repulsorscout can't hover under the shields and be lower to the ground than the AT-ST.

Ahem....the theatre shields reach to the ground, no chance for repulsorlift vehicles. That is where the AT-ST is needed.....

Tribun wrote:Ahem....the theatre shields reach to the ground, no chance for repulsorlift vehicles. That is where the AT-ST is needed.....

If they reach the ground, how do the AT-STs get in? I mean, we've seen theatre shields as in the case of Hoth and let in AT-ATs. Why would a repulsorcraft not be able to make it in that space?

Also, that doesn't explain what happens if it's an Imperial base in the first place. We saw AT-STs in action at Endor, which were already inside the shield.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Tribun wrote:Ahem....the theatre shields reach to the ground, no chance for repulsorlift vehicles. That is where the AT-ST is needed.....

If they reach the ground, how do the AT-STs get in?

Slow moving non-energy beam things can get through most theatre shields. Like the battle droids in TPM.

YT300000 wrote:Slow moving non-energy beam things can get through most theatre shields. Like the battle droids in TPM.

So an repulsorscout can't hover in slowly?

A repulser craft isn't grounded Gil. It would get fried by the static discharge from the atmospheric ionization the shield would be creating.

And as to detecting ground vibrations, could you provide some numbers showing how bad the shaking would be, and a comparison to the locals own craft which would still need to get around.

why even bother with vibrational mines? you could simply put mines that react to the pressure from being stepped on. laying enough of these in an area an At might probably walk through would be fairly easy.

Darth_Zod wrote:why even bother with vibrational mines? you could simply put mines that react to the pressure from being stepped on. laying enough of these in an area an At might probably walk through would be fairly easy.

Look at the small size of the AT-STs feet. I addressed this in my first response, you are unlikely to get one that way.

Ender wrote:A repulser craft isn't grounded Gil. It would get fried by the static discharge from the atmospheric ionization the shield would be creating.

The Rebel's snowspeeders didn't get fried by the Hoth shield when they went flying around looking for Luke and Han, or for that matter the floating probedroid that not only entered the shield but got close enough to the shield generator to take a picture of it to broadcast back to Vader. They may have lowered the barrier for the snowspeeders, but they sure wouldn't have lowered it for the probedroid. Or the assassindroid in AotC that was sitting right next to the shield protecting Amidala's room without getting zapped by an electrical discharge.

And as to detecting ground vibrations, could you provide some numbers showing how bad the shaking would be, and a comparison to the locals own craft which would still need to get around.

We know from the movies that it's considerably more than human footsteps, I can't give you more details than that. The numbers aren't all that relevant. Vibration detectors, even incredibly sensitive ones, are 20th century tech. Once they turn on the mine field, they aren't going to go traipsing through it.

Besides, repulsormines have the same problem of detecting the locals own repulsorcraft.

Darth_Zod wrote:why even bother with vibrational mines? you could simply put mines that react to the pressure from being stepped on. laying enough of these in an area an At might probably walk through would be fairly easy.

You would need alot of them. Like Ender says, the AT-STs don't have huge feet. Better to respond to heavy vibration.

Gil Hamilton wrote:The Rebel's snowspeeders didn't get fried by the Hoth shield when they went flying around looking for Luke and Han, or for that matter the floating probedroid that not only entered the shield but got close enough to the shield generator to take a picture of it to broadcast back to Vader. They may have lowered the barrier for the snowspeeders, but they sure wouldn't have lowered it for the probedroid. Or the assassindroid in AotC that was sitting right next to the shield protecting Amidala's room without getting zapped by an electrical discharge.

The shield was offline until Vaders forces arrived at the system. An active shield grid of this power would have been detected from orbit by the probe droid.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Darth_Zod wrote:why even bother with vibrational mines? you could simply put mines that react to the pressure from being stepped on. laying enough of these in an area an At might probably walk through would be fairly easy.

You would need alot of them. Like Ender says, the AT-STs don't have huge feet. Better to respond to heavy vibration.

yah, hence "enough of these". although i don't see why you couldn't build pressure mines that were large enough to be specific for ATs

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Ender wrote:A repulser craft isn't grounded Gil. It would get fried by the static discharge from the atmospheric ionization the shield would be creating.

The Rebel's snowspeeders didn't get fried by the Hoth shield when they went flying around looking for Luke and Han, or for that matter the floating probedroid that not only entered the shield but got close enough to the shield generator to take a picture of it to broadcast back to Vader. They may have lowered the barrier for the snowspeeders, but they sure wouldn't have lowered it for the probedroid. Or the assassindroid in AotC that was sitting right next to the shield protecting Amidala's room without getting zapped by an electrical discharge.

The Shield was not up until Vader arrived in system. And incase you missed it, that droid was specially equipped to disable shields.

We know from the movies that it's considerably more than human footsteps, I can't give you more details than that. The numbers aren't all that relevant. Vibration detectors, even incredibly sensitive ones, are 20th century tech. Once they turn on the mine field, they aren't going to go traipsing through it.

You don't cover everything in mines, you leave room and known routes for your own scouts and security patrols to go through. Thus you need a comparison. So numbers are relevent. Which creates more tremmors; an AT-ST or say a CAV (those treaed things from the ISB)

Besides, repulsormines have the same problem of detecting the locals own repulsorcraft.

Why the assumption that they will be using repulsors, we know that wheeled, tracked, or walking craft were extremly common.

Ender wrote:The Shield was not up until Vader arrived in system. And incase you missed it, that droid was specially equipped to disable shields.

I didn't miss the shield cutter, but it still should have been shocked when it floated up to the shield. It was only floating a few inches away. That's enough for electricity to arc from the static electricity built up from socks shuffling on a carpet to a door knob during the right weather, let alone robot frying electricity from a shield.
Also, we've seen ships like the Millenium Falcon pass though shields to be pulled into the DeathStar hangar.

You don't cover everything in mines, you leave room and known routes for your own scouts and security patrols to go through. Thus you need a comparison. So numbers are relevent. Which creates more tremmors; an AT-ST or say a CAV (those treaed things from the ISB)

I haven't the foggiest, but an AT-ST is going to make significant tremors. I can make detectable tremors myself in many surfaces, and I'm not a giant steel robot. Given StarWars technology, they should have sophisticated vibration technology and smart computers for their mines.

Why the assumption that they will be using repulsors, we know that wheeled, tracked, or walking craft were extremly common.

Because repulsorcraft are cheap and universially available to the point that bumpkins on desert planets have their own. Plus, they can handle rough surfaces better than wheeled or tracked vehicles, and don't require the elaborate set ups that mechas do. Plus, they can work at significantly high altitudes, as we can see in Coruscant where they fly without trouble kilometers above the surface of the planet where the atmosphere should be incredibly thing, making them superior to many planes and rotorcraft and can even make orbit (like X-Wings do).


Anyway, the point of this thread wasn't repulsorcraft, though that was the best example since they are as prolific in StarWars as cars are in the real world. What I'm trying to get at, poorly it seems, is this. Mechas, for reasons that have been discussed all over this board, are not a great idea even if you have the technology to make them work. They require much more mechanisms and are vastly more complex that vehicles like cars or tanks, as I'm sure our HAB friends will no doubt agree. So why would the Empire bother when they can make tanks and repulsorcraft and other vehicles that are just as good or better than chicken-walker mechas without all the unnecessary complexity.

Gil Hamilton wrote:I didn't miss the shield cutter, but it still should have been shocked when it floated up to the shield. It was only floating a few inches away. That's enough for electricity to arc from the static electricity built up from socks shuffling on a carpet to a door knob during the right weather, let alone robot frying electricity from a shield.

Then perhaps the materials and shielding of the droid were capable of coming close to a low-power shield without getting shocked. Naturally, had the droid tried to pass through the shield ala the battle droids going through the Naboo shield, it would have been damaged.

Also, we've seen ships like the Millenium Falcon pass though shields to be pulled into the DeathStar hangar.

No, the Death Star lowered its shields to pull in the Millenium Falcon. Alternatively, it may have pulled the MF through one of the "seams" in the station's shielding. But at no time could the vessel have been pulled directly through the station's shields, lest it be unceremoniously vaporized upon contact.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Then perhaps the materials and shielding of the droid were capable of coming close to a low-power shield without getting shocked. Naturally, had the droid tried to pass through the shield ala the battle droids going through the Naboo shield, it would have been damaged.

Which is odd, because the battledroids weren't fried, even though we see them getting hurt by the Gungan electrolances and the bombas, which appeared to have electric effects as well. Even though the Battledroids were standing on the ground, a powerful electric field still should have hurt them, if shields are making these electric fields.

No, the Death Star lowered its shields to pull in the Millenium Falcon. Alternatively, it may have pulled the MF through one of the "seams" in the station's shielding. But at no time could the vessel have been pulled directly through the station's shields, lest it be unceremoniously vaporized upon contact.

I meaned through the shield over the hangar itself, which wasn't lowered less it spilled the hangars air.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Which is odd, because the battledroids weren't fried, even though we see them getting hurt by the Gungan electrolances and the bombas, which appeared to have electric effects as well. Even though the Battledroids were standing on the ground, a powerful electric field still should have hurt them, if shields are making these electric fields.

No, the ICS firmly states that natural grounding makes things invulnerable against the damaging effects of the shield.

I meaned through the shield over the hangar itself, which wasn't lowered less it spilled the hangars air.

There could have just as easily been a dual-layered shieling system around the hangar. Of course, that would first require the Millenium Falcon to be using its repulsorlifts when being pulled into the Death Star, now that I think of it, which isn't what happened, as Han states when he shuts down the Falcon's power.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:No, the ICS firmly states that natural grounding makes things invulnerable against the damaging effects of the shield.

The Battledroids were standing were just as grounded when they were hit with the Gungan electrolances and bombas as they were when they were walking though that shield, and those fried them electrically.

Besides, next time a major electrical storm hits your area, stand on a hill with a piece of sheet metal held over your head. See how well natural grounding saves you, even with rubber soled shoes.

Gui-gonn, Obi-Wan, and Jar Jar walk or swim through Gungan shields at least once in that film, when they went to the Gungan city. It's a good thing that the shield wasn't electrically charged then, right, considering that they were floating in the middle of a highly conductive substance. Toaster in a bath tub effect.

There could have just as easily been a dual-layered shieling system around the hangar. Of course, that would first require the Millenium Falcon to be using its repulsorlifts when being pulled into the Death Star, now that I think of it, which isn't what happened, as Han states when he shuts down the Falcon's power.

Repulsorlifts being on or not isn't relevant. It's whether the shields are hitting objects that pass through them with significant electrical effects is. Even if the shields don't have enough power to hurt the falcon, we should have seen electrical arching to various pointy things on the hull.

Gil Hamilton wrote:The Battledroids were standing were just as grounded when they were hit with the Gungan electrolances and bombas as they were when they were walking though that shield, and those fried them electrically.

Then I hope you will be so kind as to explain the properties of the Gungan shield compared to their energy balls, and why they should operate similarly, considering their vastly different functions.

Besides, next time a major electrical storm hits your area, stand on a hill with a piece of sheet metal held over your head. See how well natural grounding saves you, even with rubber soled shoes.

What does a lightning storm have anything to do with the energy discharges given off by an energy shield? Can you explain to me how they are the same thing?

Gui-gonn, Obi-Wan, and Jar Jar walk or swim through Gungan shields at least once in that film, when they went to the Gungan city. It's a good thing that the shield wasn't electrically charged then, right, considering that they were floating in the middle of a highly conductive substance. Toaster in a bath tub effect.

You seem to assume that the shields operate on electricity or give off electrical properties when touched (if we are to presume that SW shields are "lightning shields" then they would not appear the way they do in TPM).

Repulsorlifts being on or not isn't relevant. It's whether the shields are hitting objects that pass through them with significant electrical effects is. Even if the shields don't have enough power to hurt the falcon, we should have seen electrical arching to various pointy things on the hull.

Again, your assumption that when Star Wars vehicles pass through shields they experience an electrical shock is without proof. TPM handily provides proof against your theory. Obviously, some other mechanism comes into play that disables SW vehicles when they pass through energy shields, only vaguely referred to as an "energy discharge" in the ICS.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Then I hope you will be so kind as to explain the properties of the Gungan shield compared to their energy balls, and why they should operate similarly, considering their vastly different functions.

Going by what people are saying, both bombas and their shields are producing significant electric fields, which are supposedly damaging to things that interact with them. Regardless of whether the shields or bombas function differently, it is the electric field do the damage, which my vary on intensity and that, but not in fact that they are both supposed to be lethal. Just because the powerful electric discharge comes from a shield rather than a taserlance or a bomba doesn't make a bit of difference.

What does a lightning storm have anything to do with the energy discharges given off by an energy shield? Can you explain to me how they are the same thing?

It was in response to your assertation that "natural grounding" will save someone from a lethally powerful electric discharge.

You seem to assume that the shields operate on electricity or give off electrical properties when touched (if we are to presume that SW shields are "lightning shields" then they would not appear the way they do in TPM).

Haven't you guys been saying that shields in StarWars produce powerful amounts of electricity due to interaction with their environment?

Again, your assumption that when Star Wars vehicles pass through shields they experience an electrical shock is without proof. TPM handily provides proof against your theory. Obviously, some other mechanism comes into play that disables SW vehicles when they pass through energy shields, only vaguely referred to as an "energy discharge" in the ICS.

No, it's been you guys that are saying that shields produce significant electric fields as they interact with their environment. I'm saying that we see no evidence of it. I find it hard to believe that you are accusing me of arguing the opposite point that I'm trying to argue. I'm the one saying that there is no electrical effects, remember?

Ok, I'm a tad confused now. I'ma come back after I re-read some of this stuff...

Gil Hamilton wrote:Also, we've seen ships like the Millenium Falcon pass though shields to be pulled into the DeathStar hangar.

The Millenium Falcon was being pulled in by the tractor beam(s?), so it is very unlikely that its repulsorlifts were engaged. A better example would be when Ben shut off the tractor beam(s?) and the Millenium Falcon blasted out of there on its own. Apparently the repulsorlifts were on then. Also, there were the scenes in RotJ where the Lambda-class shuttles arrived on the DSII with Vader and Palpatine and when the Tydirium left a Rebel ship hangar to go to Endor.

Gil Hamilton wrote:The Rebel's snowspeeders didn't get fried by the Hoth shield when they went flying around looking for Luke and Han, or for that matter the floating probedroid that not only entered the shield but got close enough to the shield generator to take a picture of it to broadcast back to Vader. They may have lowered the barrier for the snowspeeders, but they sure wouldn't have lowered it for the probedroid. Or the assassindroid in AotC that was sitting right next to the shield protecting Amidala's room without getting zapped by an electrical discharge.

Walkers are special Marine armor allowing for attacking planetary targets where theatre shields are in place. Air support and respulsor vehicles are ruled out--the higher repulsorlift vehicles fly, the worse they'll suffer from discharges from the extreme charge gradient between the shield rim and the ground beneath it.

A base with a theatre shield can mine all the navigable-ground approaches which are situated beneath the shield's edges. Very-low-flying repulsorlift and tracked or wheeled vehicles will be routed by enemy defenses in the minefields. Higher-flying repulsorlift vehicles and aircraft will complete a circuit between the tactical theatre deflector shield in the upper atmosphere and the planetary surface. Needless to say the discharges plaguing aircraft and high-flying repulsorlift vehicles will be vastly more severe than lightning caused by thunderheads.

An example of this would be the turbolaser and ion cannon bombardment of the tactical theatre shield at Blackmoon in X-Wing: Rogue Squadron. The energy intake of the shield raised the charge gradient so much that energetic discharges randomly leapt groundward from the shield's edge to trees and other normally insufficient conductors, starting massive forest fires. Another is X-Wing: Wedge's Gamble, with absurd electric storms and energy discharges on Coruscant, as well as energy leaping between shield interfaces when one was opened to allow Loor's shuttle in.

Beneath the shield, the shield itself forms a protective barrier against charge gradients just as deflector shields do against ion cannons. Therefore repulsorlift vehicles and aircraft function just fine under the protective shield--it is only at the shield's edge where the charge gradient is exposed to the ground by the shield's termination that the discharges are possible.

Walkers' feet and legs are more easily armored than the entire chassis of tracked and wheeled and low-flying repulsorlift vehicles, and have a much smaller foot area, decreasing the likelihood of mine detonation. And even if the mine detonates, the main body of the vehicle is raised to where armoring against kiloton-range mines is practical. The legs and feet ground the vehicle, preventing the disastrous discharges at the shield perimeter.

In order to overcome these obstacles conventionally, extremely heavily-armored repulsorlift vehicles may become necessary, or heavy area-effect weaponry to clear mine-fields. This may well have been standard practice for the Republic and later the New Republic, and perhaps even the Imperial Army against conventionally-armed foes. However, the primary late-era Republic and Imperial foes with non-planetary theatre shielding were poorly-equipped insurrectionists/successionists and Rebels, respectively.

The Grand Army, and later, Marine philosophy probably dictated that a rapid push against inferior enemies using highly-expensive, highly-specialized walker armor manned by elite, and superbly trained crews and supporting troops of the same quality (this explains why walkers are new in a technologically stagnant galaxy) in lieu of slow and costly means such as superarmored repulsorlifts (which due to repulsorlift limitations becomes more problematic with increasing mass and thus armor, and easier targets for anti-starship weaponry) or minefield clearing, which would also give the enemy greater time to escape. If you imagine the Hoth mission as a paradigm, the Imperial Marines needed the ability to quickly get under a theatre shield and knock out it out as well as other strategic defenses before the enemy could prepare for escape. Highly-specialized walkers not designed for extended combat or longevity against very poorly equipped enemies overcome many of the problems associated with "Mecha."

Imperial Army and New Republic Army forces in large-scale ground combat and occupation relied on standard repulsorlift vehicles and tracked and wheeled combat vehicles.

Gil Hamilton: the absence of atmosphere around the Death Star and spacecrafts negates many of the charged-particle issues associated with theatre shields.

The existance of extraordinary charge gradients caused by theatre shielding is a canonical fact from the AOTC ICS. The natural grounding prevents a gradient in charge developing within the vehicle itself, preventing the catastrophic discharges before they occur, similar to a lightning rod.

There is no oppurtunity for shields such as the Gungan tactical shield and the security shield at Senator Amidala's residence to create such charge gradients. In the case of theatre shielding, the charged particles isolated, created, and collected by the theatre shield are dozens of kilometers above the surface. The Gungan shield, does not confine thousands or millions of square kilometers of charged particles dozens of kilometers above the surface, as well as relying on different principles than standard shielding. The Senator's residence did not build up the same charges as well.