A Question On the Size of the Imperial Fleet

[Dargos]

My question is this. Why would the Empire need thousands of SD when they are all capable of:

1. Traveling across the galaxy in hours or at most days

2. Are capable of turning the surface of planets into slag useing BDZ

It seems an almost obscene waste of resources when a much smaller fleet would do the job.


:OFF TOPIC: GAWD I LOVE MY WIFE...I was thinking about munchies and poof she appears with plate of chips and dips....she must have read my mind::

[Master of Ossus]

Many ships are necessary for several reasons in local engagements:

1. Destroying groups of enemy ships, such as pirate bases. Such groups may have the firepower to make it risky for a single ISD to attempt to engage them all.
2. Destroying planets that are well fortified, such as ones possessing planetary shields.
3. Blockading planets.
4. Conducting searches and seizures along large trade routes, which may necessitate multiple ships at each of a multitude of stops along a single route.
5. Providing a reasonable level of protection for many industrialized worlds.
6. Providing for eventualities of damage and the necessity of maintanance on damaged or aging ships.
7. Maintaining groups of ships for the purposes of hunting down criminals and smugglers.
8. Maintaining ships within a reasonable proximity to particularly rebellious worlds.
9. Ferrying very high ranking officers from place to place, and escorting important convoys.
10. Destroying large ships, such as TF Battleships, may require ISD's. If groups of these ships are together, multiple ISD's are needed, especially to try and prevent them from retreating.

Essentially, the sheer size of the Galaxy necessitates massive fleet numbers on the part of the Empire, to the point when most people are actually surprised how small the Imperial Starfleet is.

[Mr Bean]

When one can destroy all life on a planet in under an hour would one not want some sort of defense across all the Planets?

There are some indications that Papy knew about the Vong one of the reasons why of the massive build-up

Second is that by its very nature a smaller fleet can-not be everywhere at once as the Rebel Allance Proved they STILL did not have enough ships to stop a Gurrilla Action like that

[Dargos]

Point. Mr. Bean...Master of Ossus

[Joe]

When one can destroy all life on a planet in under an hour would one not want some sort of defense across all the Planets?

There are some indications that Papy knew about the Vong one of the reasons why of the massive build-up

Second is that by its very nature a smaller fleet can-not be everywhere at once as the Rebel Allance Proved they STILL did not have enough ships to stop a Gurrilla Action like that

What would these indications be? I must have missed something; are they within the NJO, or elsewhere?

[SPOOFE]

Why would the Empire need thousands of SD when they are all capable of:

1. Traveling across the galaxy in hours or at most days

Because sometimes you need a ship at a site in minutes, or even seconds. A guerrilla attack from a single rogue freighter armed with even mild weaponry can cause some nice damage, and can be over before someone can get on the horn and yell, "We need a Star Destroyer!"

2. Are capable of turning the surface of planets into slag useing BDZ

BDZ was rarely utilized. What was most needed was an Imperial presence in just about any system. "Rule through the fear of force rather than force itself." Do you really think people will want to say no to the government when they can see 1600 Meters Of Death in orbit above 'em, all day and all night? Having a lot of ships is a constant reminder to the populace that "We can destroy you at a whim. Don't step out of line."

[Mr Bean]

What would these indications be? I must have missed something; are they within the NJO, or elsewhere?

Mention in forwards and afterwords of NJO series if I remeber corretly, MoO was the one who first mentioned them to me, I found them then since have forgetten which exact book it was

Second

BDZ was rarely utilized.

At least by the Imperals but if a Smuggler Group can scratch togther enough reasources to get somthing the size of Say a Frigit or Dreadnaught one could terrirose quite a few people


Remeber Camasii, destroyed by Agents unknow in a storm of Hell-Fire and desctrution, It was BDZ by agancys unknow wipping out nearly 98% of the Native Popluation and rendering the planet unhatibable for thousands of years

All this in just slight under an hour...

[Master of Ossus]

There is much evidence that the Chiss knew something was going on and were building their forces up. Also, Palpatine knew that someone was coming after him from beyond the Galaxy, which was part of the reason that he was building up his forces. Most people assume that he knew about the Ssi-Ruuk. He clearly did. He knew that they were out there, and had even made some deals with them. However, if it was in reference to the Ssi-Ruuk, then he should have also known that the Ssi-Ruuk were actually from the SW Galaxy itself, and not from beyond the Galaxy. He should have also clearly known that the Ssi-Ruuk were not a threat to him. Five of their most powerful ships and massive numbers of fighters and picket ships could not defeat a Carrack-cruiser and an escort carrier sized force. It is stated that he knew the Galaxy was in jeopardy from this new threat, but it is equally clear that the Ssi-Ruuk had no ability to project their power into the Core Worlds, or even to many of the worthless Outer Rim areas.

[Mr Bean]

Yes he was not worried about the Ssi-Ruuk at all as far as well can tell, They had less then fifty ships TOPS any of the Local Sector Fleets could have easily ripped them apart in under a day

However the Emperor being the Emperor wanted to grasp all thier Tech first before conqureing them

Besides he probably was waiting on his brand new Enchamnet Rig he wanted to try on his Chew To... I mean Chief Imperal Engineer Bevel Lemisk

[Spartan]

The Imperial Starfleet by any estimation is simply enormous even low end figures place the number of ships in the fleet in the hundreds of millions, with more realistic figures reaching over a billion starships. And they need every single one of them. The Empire needs so many ships for the sole purpose of deterring warfare between it members. Think about what happened to the Balkans after the Soviets pulled out, blown up to galactic scale.

Spectre of the Past is very representative of this:

page 230

"See those Clatear? They've got a six-hundred-year-old feud going on with the Nhoras that five separate generations of Jedi tried to stop and couldn't. Ever heard of it?"

page 231

After nearly two decades of agonising struggle, the galaxy had finally found peace . . . and all they wanted to do with it was get back to the petty little wars the Emperor's New Order had so thoughtlessly interrupted.

Page 285

More to the point, even though our forces outnumber theirs, those forces are at the moment widely dispersed across the galaxy. ... Attempting, as you are all aware, to bring some measure of stability to the New Republic against stirrings of hundreds of threatening internal wars."

"They're probably the ones inciting all the wars," someone suggested with obvious contempt. "That would be just like Thrawn's style. fanning the fires of stupid hatred and primitive genocidal nonsense--"
"Do not call our long struggle stupid," the Forshul Senator rumbled. "And as for genocide, I find it highly significant that our oppressors the Prosslee stand ready to excuse the Bothans' own actions against the Caamasi. ..."

Pages 302-303

Lando pointed out, his eyes on Karrde. "I don't think we realized back then just how much of their energy was going to keeping all these little planetary vendettas and rivalries from blowing up in their faces. Now we're in the same situation; and in my opinion, we simply don't have the resources to take on whatever Thrawn has planned."

Clearly this in the main reason why the Imperial starfleets needs to be so large. To prevent open warfare between powerful and wealthy System. Imagine what Kuat alone could do if there was no force to check the expansion.

In support of what Bean and MOO have said here is a another quote from SOTP. On page 287 we learn that "....there are numerous Imperial Star Destroyers within New Republic territory -- some even in private hands, if rumors are to be believed."

Finally In the Corellian Trilogy we that even insignificant planets such as Bakura can obtain warships though black markets channels if they want them. Obsolete warships can be bought for scrap by dummy corporations, only to disappear before making it to the breakers. Their are lots of ways to get illegal warships, the galaxy's a big place with thousands of uninhabited Systems for each inhabited one. Keeping a ships yard secret would not be difficult were it not for regular Imperial patrols.

The Old Republic is generally assumed to be demilitarized, that's a fallacy. Though the number of ships was surly lower, were are still talking tens of millions of starships. All of them need just to maintain control. Remember even the Blockade in TPM that contained hundreds perhaps thousand of ships was considered trivial.

[Mr Bean]

Demultirzed in the sense that there was not one to twenty ships over most planets half the time


One of the reasons for propgation of ships and plantary shields is by ANH its possible to kill every single living thing on a planet in under an hour

And if private indivudals can get thier hands on ISDs(Booster comes to mind plus various *mini-goverments) and *Slag a planet how long do you think before some *Waco gets one and starts killing as much as he can?

Thus the reasons for the still large OR Fleet and the bigger and still BUILDing Impeiral Fleet
And why the NR got thier asses handed to them time and time agian..

[Ender]

The Emperor would have known about the Vong from Obi-wan ande Anakin's trip to Zenoma Sekot. They brought back information telling about a powerful and unknown race from outside the galaxy. While he may not have known the specifics, he would have known that if a single scouting party could lay waste to half a planet they were important.

As for the Chiss, they didn't know about the Vong but they did know about all the Warlords and mini Empires out there. THe ones described to be similar to the Yevetha but much more bloodthristy.

[Mr Bean]

As for the Chiss, they didn't know about the Vong but they did know about all the Warlords and mini Empires out there. THe ones described to be similar to the Yevetha but much more bloodthristy.

But remeber Fel's words to Mara? There are many threats out there the Chiss have long been battling inculing 1 he did not name but said they where starting a massive build for

And its one of those things that shows you that Thrawn was always more than meets the eye

Think of it this way, Remeber time and time agian they we hear the Vong leave thier Galaxy for SWs?

What if they did not leave on purpose but, rather where driven

Imagin for a second if this where similiar to the time of the Invading Nomads

Remeber all the Nomadic Barabrian tribes that sacked Rome, Germany and France but even THEY where fleeing the Huns?

Imagin that for a second the Vong are the fleeares and we have yet to me "The Huns"

This is what Fel refers to, This is what Thrawn left the Chiss to prepare for

Not the currant invasion
No the one to come...

[Kuja]

Hm. Interesting theory Bean, and a bit scary.

[Stormbringer]

It'd also make a cool fic for someone with more writing abilities than me.

[Alyeska]

IIRC the Imperial starfleet is roughly 4-8 million ships centered around ISDs (25 thousand of them) and VSDs as the primary combat and garison support vessels. The majority of the ships are made up of varrying types ranging from Nebulon-B Frigates, Dreanaughts, Carrack Cruisers, Strike Cruisers, System Patrol Craft, Corvettes, etc...

[Aaron2]

Many ships are necessary for several reasons in local engagements:

1. Destroying groups of enemy ships, such as pirate bases. Such groups may have the firepower to make it risky for a single ISD to attempt to engage them all.
2. Destroying planets that are well fortified, such as ones possessing planetary shields.
3. Blockading planets.
4. Conducting searches and seizures along large trade routes, which may necessitate multiple ships at each of a multitude of stops along a single route.
5. Providing a reasonable level of protection for many industrialized worlds.
6. Providing for eventualities of damage and the necessity of maintanance on damaged or aging ships.
7. Maintaining groups of ships for the purposes of hunting down criminals and smugglers.
8. Maintaining ships within a reasonable proximity to particularly rebellious worlds.
9. Ferrying very high ranking officers from place to place, and escorting important convoys.
10. Destroying large ships, such as TF Battleships, may require ISD's. If groups of these ships are together, multiple ISD's are needed, especially to try and prevent them from retreating.

The problem is that the Old Republic faced the exact same problems that the Empire did yet they had an insignificantly small navy and -no- army. Why, suddenly, are all these local disputes popping up that require millions of ships? The Old Republic was so peaceful that Palpatine had to invent trouble just to create an excuse to build his forces.

The only point which does apply is #8. However, as the rebel fleet in ROTJ was composed of every single rebel ship, an imperial fleet of a mere 23 ships could have easily defeated it.

There is no evidence of a massive imperial fleet in any of the movies. Only sketchy EU sources (which were written before the state of the Old Republic was disclosed in EPI and II) talk about it. Of course, they were all invalidated by the SE ending of ROTJ.

Aaron

[Ender]

Long time no see boot licking toadie.

The problem is that the Old Republic faced the exact same problems that the Empire did yet they had an insignificantly small navy and -no- army. Why, suddenly, are all these local disputes popping up that require millions of ships? The Old Republic was so peaceful that Palpatine had to invent trouble just to create an excuse to build his forces.

Let's review shall we? It is said multiple times that the Jedi kept the peace. The Jedi mediated the disputes and when called for enforced them. With the Jedi gone, there was no one around to do that, hence the need for the fleet to intervene.

The only point which does apply is #8. However, as the rebel fleet in ROTJ was composed of every single rebel ship, an imperial fleet of a mere 23 ships could have easily defeated it.

There is no evidence of a massive imperial fleet in any of the movies. Only sketchy EU sources (which were written before the state of the Old Republic was disclosed in EPI and II) talk about it. Of course, they were all invalidated by the SE ending of ROTJ.

Aaron

Actually, yes there is. If those 24 ships make up a sector fleet, and there are 1024 sectors in the Repbulic, that is 24,576 Star Destroyers righ there. The movies do back it, you just don't like to think.

And how the fuck is it at all invalidated by the SE? Is this going to be another whining that the SE proves the total destruction of the Empire?

[Aaron2]

Let's review shall we? It is said multiple times that the Jedi kept the peace. The Jedi mediated the disputes and when called for enforced them. With the Jedi gone, there was no one around to do that, hence the need for the fleet to intervene.

Jedi = NO military
No Jedi = small military. Certainly 1,000 ISDs are as good as 1,000 Jedi.

See, that was easy.

Actually, yes there is. If those 24 ships make up a sector fleet, and there are 1024 sectors in the Repbulic, that is 24,576 Star Destroyers righ there. The movies do back it, you just don't like to think.

Nice try. The "sector fleet" quote came from the Radio Drama, not the movies. It is canon however. Unfortunately, it was merely a comment in passing and not a very definitive one. There is nothing to indicate that the ships at Endor were a typical sector fleet or even the sector fleet from that particular sector.

Is this going to be another whining that the SE proves the total destruction of the Empire?

It is. It does. Deal with it.


Aaron

[Stormbringer]

Let's review shall we? It is said multiple times that the Jedi kept the peace. The Jedi mediated the disputes and when called for enforced them. With the Jedi gone, there was no one around to do that, hence the need for the fleet to intervene.

Jedi = NO military
No Jedi = small military. Certainly 1,000 ISDs are as good as 1,000 Jedi.

See, that was easy.

Except that's an overly simplistic analogy. A Jedi allows you to prevent conflict. Once an ISD is needed to stop a conflict, you're going to have to willing and able to bust heads as need. You're going to have to be able to take on their fleets and that means you need a fleet of your own. Multiply that by a few thousand times and you get one heavily armed galaxy.

And the Trade Federation sent thousands of ships to Naboo and Qui-gon Jinn wasn't that stunned. If disputes are on that scale you need a heavy military prescence to deter that.

Actually, yes there is. If those 24 ships make up a sector fleet, and there are 1024 sectors in the Repbulic, that is 24,576 Star Destroyers righ there. The movies do back it, you just don't like to think.

Nice try. The "sector fleet" quote came from the Radio Drama, not the movies. It is canon however. Unfortunately, it was merely a comment in passing and not a very definitive one. There is nothing to indicate that the ships at Endor were a typical sector fleet or even the sector fleet from that particular sector.

If you wish to claim that the sector fleet at Endor was atypical provide some evidence (not merely speculation) to prove it. Until then there is no reason to assume it's in anyway atypical. Indeed it's probably smaller than the Core fleets as Endor is rather remote.

Is this going to be another whining that the SE proves the total destruction of the Empire?

It is. It does. Deal with it.

It shows riotus celebration over the death of a tyrant. What happens after that is a matter of purest speculation on your part. And your speculation is not supported by the EU. In fact in the EU the military broke the demonstrations up shortly after we see them.

[Spartan]

Stormbringer wrote

If you wish to claim that the sector fleet at Endor was atypical provide some evidence (not merely speculation) to prove it. Until then there is no reason to assume it's in anyway atypical. Indeed it's probably smaller than the Core fleets as Endor is rather remote.

There is plenty of evidence for sector fleets larger and far more powerful than a mere 24 Star destroyer. The radio drama though canon never claims that all sector fleets have 24 star destroyers. The Black fleet crisis, Dark Empire 1&2, Episode 2 ICS, WEG, etc. We see hundreds of heavy destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, carriers, and commandships. Unless one wants to claim that some sectorss only have a single ship equivalent to 24 Star destroyers patrolling it. Or that those big battlewagons are so expensive to operate, that they mostly stay docked until there's a good reason to trot them out.

[Ender]

Let's review shall we? It is said multiple times that the Jedi kept the peace. The Jedi mediated the disputes and when called for enforced them. With the Jedi gone, there was no one around to do that, hence the need for the fleet to intervene.

Jedi = NO military
No Jedi = small military. Certainly 1,000 ISDs are as good as 1,000 Jedi.

See, that was easy.

1 Ambassador = No war
300 USN ships = End the war.

The lack of the Jedio to prevent the war means you need all those ships to end it.

See, that was easy.

Actually, yes there is. If those 24 ships make up a sector fleet, and there are 1024 sectors in the Repbulic, that is 24,576 Star Destroyers righ there. The movies do back it, you just don't like to think.

Nice try. The "sector fleet" quote came from the Radio Drama, not the movies. It is canon however. Unfortunately, it was merely a comment in passing and not a very definitive one. There is nothing to indicate that the ships at Endor were a typical sector fleet or even the sector fleet from that particular sector.

Nitpick on my use of movies instead of canon. And provide the slightest shred of evidence you have indicating that the Endor fleet was not atypical.

Is this going to be another whining that the SE proves the total destruction of the Empire?

It is. It does. Deal with it.

Oh, a stunning rebuttal! That proof surely shoots my argument to ... wait a second, you didn't post any proof.

[Aaron2]

1 Ambassador = No war
300 USN ships = End the war.

The lack of the Jedio to prevent the war means you need all those ships to end it.

This assumes that the empire possesses no negotiators or ambassadors. Not a very fair assertion. Certainly an Imperial negotiator with two ISD to back up what he says is at least as effective as two Jedi who have no means of backing up what they say (short of murder by lightsaber). How can Jedi stop a war? Are they running around using their mind trick on everybody?

Nitpick on my use of movies instead of canon. And provide the slightest shred of evidence you haveindicating that the Endor fleet was not atypical.

Ok 1) Vader was there. 2) The Emperor was there. 3) The fleet was assembled to crush the Rebellion in one swift stroke. These three conditions are certainly not typical so why should the fleet be?

Oh, a stunning rebuttal! That proof surely shoots my argument to ... wait a second, you didn't post any proof.

Here's where the burden of proof is in your court. ROTJ showed massive celebrations on all (at least all known) planets within -hours- of the emperor's death. Celebrations that include knocking over gigantic statues and tossing about slain stormtroopers. Why should I have to prove that this celebration was short lived? Lucas put it there for a reason. To show that the good guys won.

Aaron

[Crazy_Vasey]

Here's where the burden of proof is in your court. ROTJ showed massive celebrations on all (at least all known) planets within -hours- of the emperor's death. Celebrations that include knocking over gigantic statues and tossing about slain stormtroopers. Why should I have to prove that this celebration was short lived? Lucas put it there for a reason. To show that the good guys won.

EU - all of it. Unless you want to play purist of course, then your viewpoint is as good as any other speculation on what happened after.

[Stormbringer]

1 Ambassador = No war
300 USN ships = End the war.

The lack of the Jedio to prevent the war means you need all those ships to end it.

This assumes that the empire possesses no negotiators or ambassadors. Not a very fair assertion. Certainly an Imperial negotiator with two ISD to back up what he says is at least as effective as two Jedi who have no means of backing up what they say (short of murder by lightsaber). How can Jedi stop a war? Are they running around using their mind trick on everybody?

You're also assuming the Imperial negotiators have the same reputation as do Jedi. Remember the Jedi have been around for millenia and that's got to earn you a reputation.

It's called the moral highground, the Jedi had it and the Imps didn't.

Nitpick on my use of movies instead of canon. And provide the slightest shred of evidence you haveindicating that the Endor fleet was not atypical.

Ok 1) Vader was there. 2) The Emperor was there. 3) The fleet was assembled to crush the Rebellion in one swift stroke. These three conditions are certainly not typical so why should the fleet be?

And both the Emperor and Vader were trying to hide their presence, calling in a huge fleet would anounce the fact or at least make the Rebels very wary. And the operational DS2 more than makes up for any difference in the fleet size.

Again. Where is the proof that the fleet was not a typical scector fleet. Explicit proof, not vague conjecture on your part.

Oh, a stunning rebuttal! That proof surely shoots my argument to ... wait a second, you didn't post any proof.

Here's where the burden of proof is in your court. ROTJ showed massive celebrations on all (at least all known) planets within -hours- of the emperor's death. Celebrations that include knocking over gigantic statues and tossing about slain stormtroopers. Why should I have to prove that this celebration was short lived? Lucas put it there for a reason. To show that the good guys won.

Of course the good guys won. But the fact that the Empire fell does not necessarily follow.

There have been plenty of riots in the US against the government that have caused equally great proportional damage. Yet the US government fell to any of them. It's rioting but nothing a little heavy armor and stormies won't disperse.