Would the Republic have fallen without Palpatine?

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2004-01-30 05:10pm

Judging by what we've seen in the prequels, would the Republic still have fallen if there hadn't been a Sith Lord manipulating the Senate? How much of the Republic's downfall can be attributed to Palpatine, and how much was simply the inevitable outcome of the bloated and corrupt organization that it had become by the Prequel Era?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-30 05:11pm

I don't think so. Palpatine was personally responsible for much of the Republic's problems. He engineered a full scale war and gave the marching orders for both sides, for crying out loud! Sort of like playing chess against yourself...

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-01-30 05:27pm

Fallen not.

But it would have become totally unruleable and would have broken apart in some time, because of it's inner conflict, which was already there without Palpy.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-01-30 05:47pm

it likely would have simply crumbled into a state of disrepair over time due to all the petty infighting and bickering that was present. although without palpatine or another sith lord it's likely the jedi purge never would have happened. and the empire would have never came to power.

Shaidar Haran · Post by **Shaidar Haran** » 2004-01-30 08:37pm

More likely it simply would have self destructed and fallen apart in a massive revolution and civil war. The fact that it had all but abandoned many planets formery under its rule or that it was riddled with corruption all point to a government on it's last legs. Palpatine didn't create the corruption or decay that allowed him to grab power, he just exploited it. Even the Star Wars: A New Hope novelization introduction points out how the Republic rotted from with in.

There was simply no way things could have gone on as they did.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2004-01-30 09:56pm

The current state, would fell with a replacement Republic state would possibly rise. They'll take the namesake and those with more power may fight it out. An empire could arise in things truly fall apart.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-30 11:22pm

If nothing else, the Vong invasion might well cause the Republic to collapse. If not, it would strengthen it greatly.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2004-01-31 12:58am

Howedar wrote:If nothing else, the Vong invasion might well cause the Republic to collapse. If not, it would strengthen it greatly.

The Vong invasion would have probably destroyed the Old Republic. Wasn't the Old Republic extremely demilitarized? No standing armies, no massive fleets to speak of? I mean, my understanding was that at the Republic level only the Jedi and the Judicials were even set up to fight a battle, much less an all-out war, prior to the Clone Wars.

Shaidar Haran · Post by **Shaidar Haran** » 2004-01-31 01:37am

Kerneth wrote:
Howedar wrote:If nothing else, the Vong invasion might well cause the Republic to collapse. If not, it would strengthen it greatly.
The Vong invasion would have probably destroyed the Old Republic. Wasn't the Old Republic extremely demilitarized? No standing armies, no massive fleets to speak of? I mean, my understanding was that at the Republic level only the Jedi and the Judicials were even set up to fight a battle, much less an all-out war, prior to the Clone Wars.

It wasn't totally demilitarized. It's just that almost all the military force was controlled at a sector level and organized for a sector level. In short, they seriously lacked any sort of power projection or long range warmaking capacity. They had the ability to conduct in house operations, as the Trade Federation feared so much, but not really for any thing else. It's a point made several times in TPM and AotC.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-31 02:33am

The Old Republic was a weak central government. It was isolated from the people and increasingly irrelevant to them, and it was totally dependent upon regional governments for its military power. Its control was exerted largely by the Jedi, whose abilities were routinely used in diplomatic negotiations.

In short, it was a delicate balancing act. Palpatine created a strong central military which eventually became so powerful that it was the regional governments, not the central government, which slowly became irrelevant. At the beginning of ANH, this process was complete, and Palpatine dissolved the Senate.

Without Palpatine, I believe this could have theoretically continued indefinitely, with the Jedi using their telepathy and skills as feared assassins to manipulate business deals and political negotiations in order to maintain the balance. But any really large catastrophe could well have caused the system to either collapse or retrench into a stronger centralized government such as Palpatine's model.

Shaidar Haran · Post by **Shaidar Haran** » 2004-01-31 04:16pm

Without Palpatine, I believe this could have theoretically continued indefinitely, with the Jedi using their telepathy and skills as feared assassins to manipulate business deals and political negotiations in order to maintain the balance.

I'd be really curious to hear why. It seems pretty clear to me that they weren't. Obviously they were losing ground as planets like Tatooine were abandoned to whoever could grab them. And the Chancellor had his hands tied pretty thoroughly by a totally corrupted Senate.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-31 05:45pm

Shaidar Haran wrote:
Without Palpatine, I believe this could have theoretically continued indefinitely, with the Jedi using their telepathy and skills as feared assassins to manipulate business deals and political negotiations in order to maintain the balance.
I'd be really curious to hear why. It seems pretty clear to me that they weren't. Obviously they were losing ground as planets like Tatooine were abandoned to whoever could grab them.

What evidence is there that Tatooine was ever part of the Republic instead of being an outlying and largely independent frontier territory?

And the Chancellor had his hands tied pretty thoroughly by a totally corrupted Senate.

Hence the importance of the Jedi. For a system to remain stagnant, government gridlock is not really a huge problem.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-31 06:11pm

The closest that Tatooine got to being part of Galactic Republic territory was the semi-failed colonisation/mining operation that occured sometime before the Great Sith War.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2004-01-31 07:19pm

Nominally, Tatooine was part of the Republic, even during the events of Episode I. The EI Novelization refers to the Republic Governor of the planet.

That said, it was for all intents and purposes not part of the Republic, as the Republic exerted no real control over it. But I had to throw that technicality out there.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-01-31 08:26pm

Wasn't the whole reason the Vong invaded that the galaxy was supposedly at its "weakest point" (militarily I suppose) after the Empire fell?

Doesn't this fly in the face of the idea that the Republic was weaker militarily than the OT Empire or the NR?

Or was the fact that the Vong invaded (according to the EU) that the Vong had wasted their own resources and were simply driven by desperation to find new space to exploit? (shades of the Orcs in Warcraft or the Martians in War of the Worlds...).

Shaidar Haran · Post by **Shaidar Haran** » 2004-01-31 08:41pm

What evidence is there that Tatooine was ever part of the Republic instead of being an outlying and largely independent frontier territory?

Supposely has a Republican Governor but he's not paid attention to even enough to be bribed. Plus, if I recall correctly Padme at one point remarks that slavery ought to be illegal on Republican laws. It doesn't really make sense for them to be there if Republican authority didn't at least nominally extend to the planet.

Hence the importance of the Jedi. For a system to remain stagnant, government gridlock is not really a huge problem.

Except it seems that the Republic hasn't just stagnated, it's dying. And from the prequel era novels it seems pretty clear that the Jedi are more or less at the direction of the Chancellor and he can't send them to do much on his own.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-01-31 09:49pm

Probably would have fallen, been a war or a reformist movement, and then you'd either get a new brand spanking new shiney republic, or hell in a hand basket

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-31 10:36pm

Shaidar Haran wrote:Supposely has a Republican Governor but he's not paid attention to even enough to be bribed. Plus, if I recall correctly Padme at one point remarks that slavery ought to be illegal on Republican laws. It doesn't really make sense for them to be there if Republican authority didn't at least nominally extend to the planet.

Ahem. According to Captain Tanaka, "that planet is controlled by the Hutts", not by the Republic. And there is no indication that it was ever controlled by the Republic. The fact that there is a governer nominally assigned to the territory obviously means nothing at that time; why do you assume it must have meant something in the past?

Hence the importance of the Jedi. For a system to remain stagnant, government gridlock is not really a huge problem.
Except it seems that the Republic hasn't just stagnated, it's dying.

And how do you know that? Without Palpatine's interference, how do you know it would not have continued like that?

And from the prequel era novels it seems pretty clear that the Jedi are more or less at the direction of the Chancellor and he can't send them to do much on his own.

That sentence makes no sense. They're at the direction of the Chancellor but he can't order them around?

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2004-02-01 01:35am

Kurgan wrote:Wasn't the whole reason the Vong invaded that the galaxy was supposedly at its "weakest point" (militarily I suppose) after the Empire fell?

Doesn't this fly in the face of the idea that the Republic was weaker militarily than the OT Empire or the NR?

Or was the fact that the Vong invaded (according to the EU) that the Vong had wasted their own resources and were simply driven by desperation to find new space to exploit? (shades of the Orcs in Warcraft or the Martians in War of the Worlds...).

Combination of the two. The Yuuzhan Vong were running out of resources, and their worldships were dying. The previous Supreme Overlord didn't want to invade the SW galaxy, but he was assassinated and replaced with Shimmra, who pushed the invasion through. The Yuuzhan Vong had scouted out the SW galaxy for a couple of decades prior to the actual invasion, but whether they had the invasion force in place and were waiting for an opportune moment to strike or were just building up what forces they could for the initial assault--and using information gained about the SW galaxy tech base to modify their gear to work better--is never made entirely clear.

Though Nom Anor does note that the Empire would have defeated the Vong easily, it was as much because the Emperor wouldn't've dithered around with political correctness and would have sent a huge fleet to meet the initial invasion as it was because of the Empire's actual military superiority. The New Republic's biggest mistake was its hesitancy to commit forces to fighting the Vong from the earliest days of the invasion, and the fact that the politicians were trying to control the missions and overall strategy.

Shaidar Haran · Post by **Shaidar Haran** » 2004-02-01 03:39am

Ahem. According to Captain Tanaka, "that planet is controlled by the Hutts", not by the Republic. And there is no indication that it was ever controlled by the Republic. The fact that there is a governer nominally assigned to the territory obviously means nothing at that time; why do you assume it must have meant something in the past?

And why would a planet have a governor attached to it or it be under Republican law if it were never a part of the Republic? Does Canada appoint a governor of Texas? Would a Canadian expect Canadian law apply in Texas?

And that fails to take into account the discussions both in the film and novel that imply the Republican rule should extend to Tatooine.

And how do you know that? Without Palpatine's interference, how do you know it would not have continued like that?

Because the condition the Republic was in is not one of stability. There hasn't been a government yet that's survived the problems that Old Republic faced, done nothing, and then survived.

That sentence makes no sense. They're at the direction of the Chancellor but he can't order them around?

The US military is at the direction of the President of the United States, does that mean he could have Navy Seals take out Jacque Chirac? No, he couldn't. It's a similar situation to the Chancellor. He has nominal control over the Jedi but he still can't just do what he wants with them.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-01 02:29pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Old Republic was a weak central government. It was isolated from the people and increasingly irrelevant to them, and it was totally dependent upon regional governments for its military power. Its control was exerted largely by the Jedi, whose abilities were routinely used in diplomatic negotiations.

Actually the problem was that the central government posessed too much power and was incompetant and impotent.

Padme had to appeal to the galactic legislature for intervention because a single and rather insignificant sectorial capital and Republic member was occupied. What about the Chommel Sector government itself? What about the regional government? What about neighboring sectors?

The galactic legislature and judiciary had jurisdiction over such a local dispute explains how overstretched it was. Moreover, it had to give permission to the military forces organized by the sectors.

The problem the Old Republic had was not delegating enough political power to the local and sector levels and possessing its own military to execute its own directives.

Darth Wong wrote:In short, it was a delicate balancing act. Palpatine created a strong central military which eventually became so powerful that it was the regional governments, not the central government, which slowly became irrelevant. At the beginning of ANH, this process was complete, and Palpatine dissolved the Senate.

The military and political clout amassed by Palpatine allowed him to be crowned Emperor. However, he actually delegated power out to the sectors, in the Moffs. Moffs operated their own local naval commands and were responsible for what went on. Abolishing the Senate gave the local governors direct control over their territories. Palpatine severed the bonds of accountability even more from the central government, with a bunch of governors loyal to him only via employment and fear of being quashed by the Empire's strategic naval reserves.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-02 06:48am

The military and political clout amassed by Palpatine allowed him to be crowned Emperor. However, he actually delegated power out to the sectors, in the Moffs. Moffs operated their own local naval commands and were responsible for what went on. Abolishing the Senate gave the local governors direct control over their territories. Palpatine severed the bonds of accountability even more from the central government, with a bunch of governors loyal to him only via employment and fear of being quashed by the Empire's strategic naval reserves.

Interesting information. Were the Moffs established before the Republic fell or after ?

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-02-03 08:19pm

Tribun wrote:Fallen not.

But it would have become totally unruleable and would have broken apart in some time, because of it's inner conflict, which was already there without Palpy.

Or perhaps someone would have risen to fill the void; I'm sure that there were plenty of groups out there that wanted the Republic taken down.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2004-02-04 11:38am

That sentence makes no sense. They're at the direction of the Chancellor but he can't order them around?

There's not a whole lot of material on this, but it sounded in Ep 1 as if Sidious was genuinely surprised at the Jedi's presence. It appears that the Chancellor is also weak and this was unexpected. A strong, influenctial chancellor might be able to do it at whim, but the weaker ones like Valorum had less independence from the Senate. He may have the technical authority, but politics is always a complex, locally defined game. The RUles are a sideshow to the real power.

But that's just my reading.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-02-04 12:52pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:There's not a whole lot of material on this, but it sounded in Ep 1 as if Sidious was genuinely surprised at the Jedi's presence. It appears that the Chancellor is also weak and this was unexpected. A strong, influenctial chancellor might be able to do it at whim, but the weaker ones like Valorum had less independence from the Senate. He may have the technical authority, but politics is always a complex, locally defined game. The RUles are a sideshow to the real power.

But that's just my reading.

In case of problems between member worlds (especially armed conflicts) the jedi could only act with the permission of the senate. Valorum asking the jedi order was actually illegal and even if the mission had succeded it would have been followed by serious debates in the senate.
source: TPM novelisation