Yoda in the prequels

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 05:04am

IMHO, Yoda's role in the prequels is unnecessary. He was 900 years old and basically on his deathbed when Luke found him. He should have been in retirement on Dagobah and out of sight before the prequels started. That way, Episode V truly was his first introduction (to us and not just Luke).

I think the overall story would be just fine--and, IMO, more consistent with the "spirit" of the OT--with younger Jedi like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu leading the order in the prequels and saving Yoda for "later" as the last surviving uber-Jedi master that he was depicted as in the OT.

::taking a deep breath and bracing myself for the flaming::

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-02-05 05:21am

This contradicts so many EU and canon materials it is not even funny. However, a Episode II ending with a destroyed Jedi order and the search of the last survivors of the legendary master Yoda in Episode III may have been good.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 05:33am

Murazor wrote:This contradicts so many EU and canon materials it is not even funny. However, a Episode II ending with a destroyed Jedi order and the search of the last survivors of the legendary master Yoda in Episode III may have been good.

One of the many problems I have with the prequel trilogy is that it seems so much of it has been pissed away on "setting the stage." TPM felt slow and AOTC felt rushed. It's as if the utter waste of the first two of the six hours comprising the prequel trilogy forced George Lucas to squeeze the meat of the story into episodes 2 and 3. With that in mind, I'd have saved a "Yoda quest" side-story for an EU novel.

That is, in my version of the way the prequels should have been done.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-02-05 06:02am

I really dont see a problem with Yoda as he has been portrayed.

When Luke first found Yodo in Ep 5, Yoda wasnt yet so bad. He was able to take all that shaking and flipping and falling Luke did while riding on his back and he was still able to lift lukes X-Wing out of the water with relative ease. However, he was obviously not as well off as in Episodes 1 and 2 but then again they do take place over 20 years before the Ep 5 and 6 and in that time frame their is plenty of space for old age and sickness and such to finally crop up and take its toll on him as it did by Episode 6.

If you look at how old people are in real life. Sometimes you have strong people that manage to live in relatively great health all the way up into their 80's or even sometimes their 90's but then suddenly die or get sick and die within the space of a few months. Yoda was just like this IMO.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 07:43am

Icehawk wrote:I really dont see a problem with Yoda as he has been portrayed.

My point isn't so much about Yoda's portrayal (though I thought it was downright silly in AOTC) as it is about his unnecessary presence.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2004-02-05 07:57am

well, the prequels do change the initial introduction of characters but sometimes in good ways--we are used to seeing Yoda as this all-powerful leader on coruscant in the prequels and then in ESB we see he's been reduced to living in a swamp; much the same way that OB1's intro was changed.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-02-05 12:50pm

I would have prefered Yoda being a reclusive Jedi Master who only a few Jedi Knights know his location - like Obi-wan. I didn't like how Yoda was walking around on Coruscant, and I didn't like the comicbook duel with Dooku at the end of AOTC (I am of the opinion that duel is the worst fight in the entire SW saga - it is just embarassing). It would have been nice, like suggested above, that they (Obi-wan and whoever) sought out Yoda in order to gain his insight into the whole Seperatist/Republic crisis, and that was one part of the prequel trilogy.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 02:17pm

zombie84 wrote:well, the prequels do change the initial introduction of characters but sometimes in good ways--we are used to seeing Yoda as this all-powerful leader on coruscant in the prequels and then in ESB we see he's been reduced to living in a swamp; much the same way that OB1's intro was changed.

Well, Obi-Wan was a key player. Without him and Anakin, there's no story. Yoda, on the other hand, is a secondary character whose purpose in the story doesn't really come into play until later when Obi-Wan's dead and Luke is still in need of training. I also think the introduction of Boba Fett as a kid was a mistake...

Stofsk wrote:I would have prefered Yoda being a reclusive Jedi Master who only a few Jedi Knights know his location - like Obi-wan. I didn't like how Yoda was walking around on Coruscant, and I didn't like the comicbook duel with Dooku at the end of AOTC (I am of the opinion that duel is the worst fight in the entire SW saga - it is just embarassing).

I agree with you 100% until...

Stofsk wrote:It would have been nice, like suggested above, that they (Obi-wan and whoever) sought out Yoda in order to gain his insight into the whole Seperatist/Republic crisis, and that was one part of the prequel trilogy.

See, I would have left him out entirely, except for a brief reference or two from Obi-Wan and/or Mace speaking of Yoda with awe to build up his reputation as a "great warrior." TESB should remain his first ever appearance to us.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-02-05 03:06pm

Actually Yoda's appearence in ESB is the first time he is seen.

The structure of the trilogies basically means that the OT is to be seen first. After all, there is no suprise that Vader is Luke's father and is Anakin Skywalker if you see the PT first.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-05 03:14pm

Since Obi-Wan claims Yoda had a role in his training he should have been around when the guy was a Padawan. Also remember that it was because of the Jedi Purge that he was hiding on Dagobah in the first place. Having him there prior to TPM doesn't make sense.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-02-05 03:49pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:Since Obi-Wan claims Yoda had a role in his training he should have been around when the guy was a Padawan. Also remember that it was because of the Jedi Purge that he was hiding on Dagobah in the first place. Having him there prior to TPM doesn't make sense.

according to various sourcebooks yoda's had a role in training nearly every jedi that had set foot in the academy for a few hundred years.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-02-05 04:02pm

Emm, didn't Yoda say in TESB that he had taught jedis for 800 years?
Otherwise I think his losses made him so old so quickly and he was alive at the time of TESB only because he had a single goal or destiny (to train the new hope) and when he succeded he quickly died.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 04:20pm

neoolong wrote:Actually Yoda's appearence in ESB is the first time he is seen.

The structure of the trilogies basically means that the OT is to be seen first. After all, there is no suprise that Vader is Luke's father and is Anakin Skywalker if you see the PT first.

For key events like that, revealing that Anakin is Vader in the prequels is unavoidable. Things like Yoda's and Boba Fett's premature and unnecessary introductions, on the other hand, were avoidable.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Since Obi-Wan claims Yoda had a role in his training he should have been around when the guy was a Padawan.

Qui-Gon had taken over Obi-Wan's training at that point so why should Yoda have been around? That said, I'd have made Obi-Wan a full-fledged Jedi Knight in Episode I and Qui-Gon (assuming his character was used at all) a Jedi Master, but not Obi-Wan's master.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Also remember that it was because of the Jedi Purge that he was hiding on Dagobah in the first place. Having him there prior to TPM doesn't make sense.

That's the EU explanation, is it not? As I said above, if Lucas could disregard the EU at any time, why stick to it when discussing possible alternate versions of the canon storyline?

For all we know (going strictly by canon), Dagobah was always Yoda's home. For all we know, he may have trained all his apprentices there rather than the stark, sterile halls of the Jedi citadel on Coruscant.

Guys, I'm trying to think outside of the box (EU) here.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-05 04:50pm

Galvatron wrote:For all we know (going strictly by canon), Dagobah was always Yoda's home. For all we know, he may have trained all his apprentices there rather than the stark, sterile halls of the Jedi citadel on Coruscant.

The EU didn't pull the Jedi Purge out of its ass. It's completely backed up by Obi-Wan when he said Vader helped the Empire hunt down the Jedi Knights. If Dagobah was known to be Yoda's home it would have been Base Delta Zeroed by Palpatine very early in the game.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 04:59pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:The EU didn't pull the Jedi Purge out of its ass. It's completely backed up by Obi-Wan when he said Vader helped the Empire hunt down the Jedi Knights.

I'm not disputing that. The EU, however, did concoct the reason for Yoda being on Dagobah.

Lazy Raptor wrote:If Dagobah was known to be Yoda's home it would have been Base Delta Zeroed by Palpatine very early in the game.

Which is why I'd have had Yoda's location, status, and perhaps even his existence remain a mystery to all but a few.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-02-05 06:06pm

Galvatron, I cannot understand your problem. In epI and II the jedis were not prepared for or worried about their extermination, so, why to hide their most experienced teacher and why to leave him out from important decisions/discussions?
Not to mention that there were no facilities on Dabogah to house many students, so Yoda would be able to teach only a very few students at any given time.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-05 06:07pm

Galv's somewhat of an OT Purist.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-05 06:11pm

Galvatron wrote:I'm not disputing that. The EU, however, did concoct the reason for Yoda being on Dagobah.

Why else live there?

Which is why I'd have had Yoda's location, status, and perhaps even his existence remain a mystery to all but a few.

Obi-Wan knew where to find him, and there was really nothing special about him in the Jedi heirarchy. In the unlikely event that Palpatine wouldn't have access to this information, Vader probably would have filled him in. Keep in mind that there is very little that goes on in the galaxy that Palpatine doesn't know about.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-02-05 06:22pm

Galvatron wrote:
neoolong wrote:Actually Yoda's appearence in ESB is the first time he is seen.

The structure of the trilogies basically means that the OT is to be seen first. After all, there is no suprise that Vader is Luke's father and is Anakin Skywalker if you see the PT first.
For key events like that, revealing that Anakin is Vader in the prequels is unavoidable. Things like Yoda's and Boba Fett's premature and unnecessary introductions, on the other hand, were avoidable.

What's your point? As it stands, there is no reason to see the PT before the OT aside from watching it chronologically. On the other hand, there is reason to see the OT first, which it seems to be how it was meant to be seen.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 06:22pm

vakundok wrote:Galvatron, I cannot understand your problem. In epI and II the jedis were not prepared for or worried about their extermination, so, why to hide their most experienced teacher and why to leave him out from important decisions/discussions?

Out of respect for Yoda's desire for solitude, perhaps? He needn't be in "hiding" on Dagobah any more than Superman goes into hiding when he flies north to his Fortress of Solitude. That doesn't mean that Superman publicizes his whereabouts.

vakundok wrote:Not to mention that there were no facilities on Dabogah to house many students, so Yoda would be able to teach only a very few students at any given time.

Which is exactly the direction I'd have taken with him. Instead of Yoda being a one-man "Jedi factory," he'd train his pupils one at a time.

I'd have made the Jedi order far less centralized and organized. Training would be much more personal and take place all over the galaxy, wherever Jedi masters chose to teach their apprentices.

Lazy Raptor wrote:
Galvatron wrote:I'm not disputing that. The EU, however, did concoct the reason for Yoda being on Dagobah.
Why else live there?

Maybe it was his home. Maybe he liked it there.

"Slimy? Mudhole? My home this is!"

Lazy Raptor wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Which is why I'd have had Yoda's location, status, and perhaps even his existence remain a mystery to all but a few.
Obi-Wan knew where to find him, and there was really nothing special about him in the Jedi heirarchy. In the unlikely event that Palpatine wouldn't have access to this information, Vader probably would have filled him in. Keep in mind that there is very little that goes on in the galaxy that Palpatine doesn't know about.

Obi-Wan was Yoda's apprentice. Of course he knew where to find him. That's no reason to assume Vader or Palpatine did (and I'm not about to concede that Palpatine was omniscient).

neoolong wrote:
Galvatron wrote:For key events like that, revealing that Anakin is Vader in the prequels is unavoidable. Things like Yoda's and Boba Fett's premature and unnecessary introductions, on the other hand, were avoidable.
What's your point? As it stands, there is no reason to see the PT before the OT aside from watching it chronologically. On the other hand, there is reason to see the OT first, which it seems to be how it was meant to be seen.

I'm thinking of the story structure chronologically, yes.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-05 06:28pm

At the time he said that, Yoda was still going with his "crazy hermit" guise.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-02-05 06:35pm

Galvatron wrote:
neoolong wrote:What's your point? As it stands, there is no reason to see the PT before the OT aside from watching it chronologically. On the other hand, there is reason to see the OT first, which it seems to be how it was meant to be seen.
I'm thinking of the story structure chronologically, yes.

So it screws with narrative structure a bit, big deal.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 06:37pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:At the time he said that, Yoda was still going with his "crazy hermit" guise.

That doesn't mean he wasn't being truthful about it.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-05 06:38pm

Galvatron wrote:Maybe it was his home. Maybe he liked it there.

"Slimy? Mudhole? My home this is!"

I'm sure he did. But it's very difficult to say he isn't hiding there.

Obi-Wan was Yoda's apprentice. Of course he knew where to find him. That's no reason to assume Vader or Palpatine did (and I'm not about to concede that Palpatine was omniscient).

It is never stated that Obi-Wan was Yoda's apprentice. Obi-Wan says that Yoda instructed him, this could mean anything. And Palpatine was not omniscient, but he is a damned powerful Sith. He ascended to the throne of Emperor because he had enough information to take control of the Republic. He has numerous information channels, his long-range Sith precog among them. If Yoda was hiding on Dagobah prior to the New Order, Palpatine would have found out.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 06:42pm

neoolong wrote:
Galvatron wrote:I'm thinking of the story structure chronologically, yes.
So it screws with narrative structure a bit, big deal.

IMHO, little things like narrative structuring and well-acted performances are integral to a good movie. When done sloppily, they can detract from the final product just as much as silly Gungans and Midichlorians.