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What do you think would have happened? Perhaps the anti-Jedi faction in the Senate wouldn't have gotten totally out of control and that traitorous Kuati Senator wouldn't have done so much damage.

I think the NR would have done a lot better. Leia seemed to be holding the whole mess together a hell of a lot better than Fey'yla (buggered if I can remember how to spell that) managed to. I think Mothma and Leia's reigns were the only times the NR seemed even close to being a functional government, to be honest.

Close, but not quite. Leia was better than Fey'lya, but you just can't make that "government" work. What fucked over the NR early in the war? The "negotiate on one hand, fight witht the other" mentality. That and bowing to the Vong's use of hostages and civilian casualties. Since Leia's a bleeding heart pacifist, I don't see how it would have been much better. Although she certainly wouldn't have put up with as much crap from Viqi Shesh.

It's been awhile since I've read Vector Prime but at the end of that book wasn't Leia getting ready to head to Coruscant to argue to Borsk to send military reinforcements to the outer rim?

The problem with the NR was bleeding hearts and empty heads. Even had Leia been there and dead set on repelling the Vong (which is by no means a given) there would have been only so much she could have done.

Princess Leia was involved in the first major combat against the Vong in Vector Prime. She probably would have been able to lead the NR against the YV more effectively than Fey'lya did. However, Leia's antics with her adventures in refugee-sitting really got annoying. She spent about 3/4 of the war babysitting refugees instead of organizing military strikes against the YV.

Chief of State Organa-Solo probably would not have made many of the same mistakes that Fey'lya did, but she is saddled with an idiotic Senate that probably will hobble any moves she makes to decisively meet the enemy and defeat him -- at least in the early phases of the war.

However, with a more competent political leadership I don't think Coruscant will fall, either. Hell, with all her changes it might just end up being a Total War with the eventual extermination of the Vong rather than the cop-out ending in the EU.

Ronaldo wrote:Princess Leia was involved in the first major combat against the Vong in Vector Prime. She probably would have been able to lead the NR against the YV more effectively than Fey'lya did. However, Leia's antics with her adventures in refugee-sitting really got annoying. She spent about 3/4 of the war babysitting refugees instead of organizing military strikes against the YV.

I was under the impression that she was babysitting the refugees because Fey'lya wouldn't allow her to participate in any other way for fear of her stealing political support away from him.

If we go by SbS, Fey'lya actually did support military action, but couldn't do anything overt without being removed from office. After all, someone had to keep Kyp's Dozen in new ships, and provide 100+ starfighters for Luke's force. Leia would probably have faced exactly the same predicament, and would in fact have been more likely to be stymied by the refugee shield the Vong used..

Mlenk wrote:

Ronaldo wrote:Princess Leia was involved in the first major combat against the Vong in Vector Prime. She probably would have been able to lead the NR against the YV more effectively than Fey'lya did. However, Leia's antics with her adventures in refugee-sitting really got annoying. She spent about 3/4 of the war babysitting refugees instead of organizing military strikes against the YV.

I was under the impression that she was babysitting the refugees because Fey'lya wouldn't allow her to participate in any other way for fear of her stealing political support away from him.

That might have been the case; however, she should have shown a little more initiative than that. Besides, that doesn't change the fact that her babysitting escapades were really annoying. That combined with Jacen's whining made me want to scream and lash out in anger at the NJO writers. I enjoyed reading every moment of Jacen's torture at the hands of the Vong, only to be disappointed when he survived.

phongn wrote:However, with a more competent political leadership I don't think Coruscant will fall, either. Hell, with all her changes it might just end up being a Total War with the eventual extermination of the Vong rather than the cop-out ending in the EU.

You thought the Yuuzhan Vong should've been exterminated?

That combined with Jacen's whining made me want to scream and lash out in anger at the NJO writers. I enjoyed reading every moment of Jacen's torture at the hands of the Vong, only to be disappointed when he survived.

No arguments there. Jacen was a whiny little bitch that deserved all the pain the Vong gave him AND more.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Since Leia's a bleeding heart pacifist, I don't see how it would have been much better. Although she certainly wouldn't have put up with as much crap from Viqi Shesh.

Yes she was such a 'bleeding heart pacifist' she sat out the entire rebellion prefering to use lobby groups to try and pressure the Emperor into changing some of his more belliclose policies - hang on! That's not what I saw in the movies!

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

phongn wrote:However, with a more competent political leadership I don't think Coruscant will fall, either. Hell, with all her changes it might just end up being a Total War with the eventual extermination of the Vong rather than the cop-out ending in the EU.

You thought the Yuuzhan Vong should've been exterminated?

Well I was hoping for a 'critical mass' kind of situation taking out the Vong and well all the really stupid leaders in the NR (now the ridiculous GFFA). As it was we got the opposite, the Vong (who managed to terrorise and subvert a great deal of the galaxy), get to spend the rest of their existance on one single planet and the stupid people with no balls are running the 'new' government.

Honestly the EU has taken are really bad turn.

The only thing I like about the NJO was the high death toll (up to the hundreds of trillions right?), but even then it was pretty small really.


EDIT :: Typo!

The Vong weren't exterminated? What the - why the fuck not?

And they get to spend the rest of their lives on a single planet? What about all the fuckers they wiped out? Where do they get to spend their lives? Oh wait, they can't because they're dead.

Ok, I can sort of understand leaving the grunt-level people to rot on some shit hole planet, but surely there were mass executions of the officers, following Nuremberg-like trials? Please tell me there were trials, at least.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

phongn wrote:However, with a more competent political leadership I don't think Coruscant will fall, either. Hell, with all her changes it might just end up being a Total War with the eventual extermination of the Vong rather than the cop-out ending in the EU.

You thought the Yuuzhan Vong should've been exterminated?

Sorry, I phrased that rather poorly. No, I didn't want to see the complete genocide of the Yuuzhan Vong, but I wanted to see something better than that cop-out ending. Perhaps a massive war with Marina-scale fleets where the YV are relentlessly driven back until forced to unconditionally surrender.

But IMHO, having a massive war of survival where either the Vong for the inhabitants of the GFFA can survive--but not both--would have been a more compelling read.

Stofsk wrote: Ok, I can sort of understand leaving the grunt-level people to rot on some shit hole planet, but surely there were mass executions of the officers, following Nuremberg-like trials? Please tell me there were trials, at least.

Sorry but from what I can remember there were none. The Vong surrendered like bitches after they heard that Luke had killed Shimmra.

No... warcrimes tribunal? Trials? Nothing?

phongn wrote:Sorry, I phrased that rather poorly. No, I didn't want to see the complete genocide of the Yuuzhan Vong, but I wanted to see something better than that cop-out ending. Perhaps a massive war with Marina-scale fleets where the YV are relentlessly driven back until forced to unconditionally surrender.

How do you reconcile that with other EU views of the NR and fleets?

I like to view the same regarding the conflict during the DE period, but it just doesn't seem to work.

Stofsk wrote:

No... warcrimes tribunal? Trials? Nothing?

None, nothing, nada, zilch, zero, etc etc etc.

Yeah, sucks doesn't it?

Look at the bright side Stofsk, with all of them in one nice neat package, it gives a future author (fanfic or otherwise) the opportunity to have something big and nasty hyper in and "commence primary ignition" without any preamble or BS pontificating

Crown wrote:Yes she was such a 'bleeding heart pacifist' she sat out the entire rebellion prefering to use lobby groups to try and pressure the Emperor into changing some of his more belliclose policies - hang on! That's not what I saw in the movies!

But she was playing it the subterfuge route. She wasn't publicly up in arms against the Empire early on, no she was gun-running and spying instead. It's only after Vader blew the lid off of her little scheme that she'd actually pick up a blaster. While she wasn't as corrupt as some of her superiors, everything that was wrong with the Republic was wrong with her. She played a vital role in making the government what it was; defunct. "Let's lose the battle by diverting most of our forces to save the civilians". I'm genuinely disturbed by such stupidity, especially when even more lives are lost in the inevitable fall of whatever planet they failed to defend.

Lazy Raptor wrote:

Crown wrote:Yes she was such a 'bleeding heart pacifist' she sat out the entire rebellion prefering to use lobby groups to try and pressure the Emperor into changing some of his more belliclose policies - hang on! That's not what I saw in the movies!

But she was playing it the subterfuge route. She wasn't publicly up in arms against the Empire early on, no she was gun-running and spying instead. It's only after Vader blew the lid off of her little scheme that she'd actually pick up a blaster.

It doesn't matter Raptor that she was a spy/diplomat at first and then soldier/leader latter - the point is, you accused her of being a 'bleeding heart pacifist' which is total bullshit, being contradicted by canon.

While she wasn't as corrupt as some of her superiors, everything that was wrong with the Republic was wrong with her. She played a vital role in making the government what it was; defunct.

Ok, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean here. In ANH she was a senator, and it was because of the Emperor that her role became defunct.

If you count the New Republic, I have two words for you: Expanded Universe. I just learned it's a piece of shit. What a big surprise. Canonically, however, she wasn't a pacifist nor contribute to fucking up the government.

"Let's lose the battle by diverting most of our forces to save the civilians". I'm genuinely disturbed by such stupidity, especially when even more lives are lost in the inevitable fall of whatever planet they failed to defend.

So who's fault is it that the EU is written by stupid motherfuckers who don't have a good grasp of her character - y'know, the one that didn't break to Vader's torture, who refused to retreat when Yavin was about to be destroyed by the Death Star, who stayed behind to catch the last transport just to make sure everyone evacuated Hoth, who picked up a blaster carbine and shot down stormies, who killed Jabba the Hutt with a chain and her bare hands, who volunteered to be in the commando mission on Endor etc.

The EU has done many crimes, and misrepresenting the characters is one of them. Leia is a fighter and a leader, as proven by the movies, and if the EU says otherwise then frankly it's full of shit.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:How do you reconcile that with other EU views of the NR and fleets?

Perhaps an earlier, somewhat more agressive stance against the Vong that lets the Republic gain needed time to switch to a massive war economy and churn out absurd numbers of ships.

I like to view the same regarding the conflict during the DE period, but it just doesn't seem to work.

I know.

The best, suggested by Saxton, is the the NR emphasizes defense against limpwristed, probing post-Endor attacks consisting of little if anything bigger than an Imperial destroyer, and occupying "soft" (ie., politically compliant and underdefended) territory defended by little more than destroyers, while the big ships shifted over to the major corporations and old rich sectors, like in the pre-Clone Wars period and who didn't have complexes about the Imperial Navy's "image" .

They finally seem to be getting out of it for a bit right after the Thrawn Trilogy--refitting the Lusankya; more refitted ISDs.

Then the Republic and Defender destroyers look like they were at least intended for a more Imperial Navy-type use, but got shoe-horned by minimalism by the shrunken NR and the gutted KDY into the wussy FCS-of-SW-starfleets, the New Class.

At last, with the NJO, you have them starting to fill-in the ship classes from above with Viscount and Strident "Star Defenders," the Mediator battlecruiser, and the refit and repaired Guardian.

Kind of a deficit in the ISD to Home One kind of range, though.