The power of the Dark Side

[Cpt_Frank]

We all know what Yoda said about the Dark Side: that it's not more powerful than the light, only easier and faster.
But what have we seen so far from our light/dark side warriors?

We saw Darth Maul, young Sith Apprentice kill Qui-Gon Jin, who was said to be one of the most powerful Jedi and one of the most skillful swordfighters of his time.
We saw Jango Fett, who was, after all, only an simple man tying to make his way in the universe, fight a relatively equally matched battle with Obi-Wan, who sure as hell wasn't one of less powerful Jedi. Jango was finally outmached, but he did clearly cause Obi some trouble.
We saw Count Dooku, Sith Apprentice, fight and defeat two Jedi at once, and only the very Jedi Master Yoda himself was able to force him to flee.
We saw Vader blocking blaster bolts only with his hand.

All that seems to indicate that the average dark force user can more or less easily defeat the average light side user, while some light side users even have trouble with ordinary bounty hunters! (Sure, Jango was the best - but I'd say every combat-experienced man with his armor and equipment could do what he did).

So, I have made up two possible conclusions:
Yoda lied, and the Dark Side is stronger
OR
Yoda didn't lie and both sides are equally strong, but while it takes some tens of years to become a master of the Dark Side, it will take you about 900 years to become a real Light Side master.
Now it's a pity most humans don't get that old, and it would explain why so many Jedi succumbed to the Dark Side.

[Nova Andromeda]

If I remember the relevant conversation correctly Yoda was referring to the strength of each side of the force. Asumming both sides are, in fact, of equal strength one cannot conclude that followers of each side would be equally matched in combat. In fact, I would imagine the dark side would be much more useful in combat since Yoda also said the light side is only used for defense and never offense. For example, we see both Obi-one and Luke get very angry before defeating Darth Maul and Darth Vadar respectively. We also know anger leads to the dark side. This supports the view that the dark side is far more useful in combat than the light side. It does not mean that the dark side is stronger than the light side though.

[FireNexus]

Mandalorian armor was designed specifically to allow ordinary beings to fight Jedi on a semi-equal standing. If Jango had been in street clothes, or even normal armor, Obi-Wan would've probably killed him with nary a thought.

As far as the Dark Side goes, I really do think it is, for a time, more powerful than the light. But it's users simply cannot sustain it. It tears them apart.

Also, I think Yoda wasn't thinking clearly. Being easier and faster to learn makes it more powerful than the light side by definition. Ease of use adds to power.

In conclusion, though the Dark Side is more powerful, it is also much more dangerous to it's user. Plus, I think the light side instills long life, while the Dark Side drains the life out of them, sort of.

Think about it. The force binds life together. The dark side is made up of the emotions and forces which kill and cause death, whereas the light sad is masde up of those which allow it to exist. This is why the dark side is necessary, btw. To keep things moving.


<---Standard Dark Side user.

[Cpt_Frank]

Actually, that's what I wanted to say, that the Dark Side makes the better warrior.
In my eyes, this makes the Dark Side much more useful than the Light, at least in a war-torn galaxy.
The Dark Side offers:
-fast learning
-exceptional combat skills
-power over your subjugates through fear
the Light Side simply can't match that!

May be that the Dark Side will consume and destroy you in the end, but getting so much power so quickly IS tempting.....

[marcello invernizzi]

In my opinion the jedi are overrated.Granted they may be excellent ambassadors and are obviously more than deadly in hand to hand combat. However against decent army units they are dead meat.But this is not the main problemr.They can not see a sith master literally in front of their nose (no Palpaclones or Palpatwins,please).To make things worse they send Anakin to bodyguard Padme,which is on the verge of idiocy, unless it was conceived as a test.

[SPOOFE]

Remember the history of the Sith, however... thousands of years prior to TPM, there were plenty of Sith, and they all betrayed one another for more power (leading to the "One Master, one Apprentice" thing). The Dark Side is bent towards destruction, and without a target to focus on, it will destroy itself.

[Cpt_Frank]

The Dark Side does NOT destroy itself. It is said to destroy the beings who succumb to it.
Having only 2 Sith (Master&Apprentice) is the logical choice to prevent the Sith Order (not the Dark Side) from self-destructing.

[Robert Treder]

There doesn't seem to be any real difference in the observed manifestations of 'light' and 'dark' Force powers...it seems likely, to me, that the Force is one...er, force. The differences between 'light' and 'dark' are merely philosophical ones.
Notice that most of the observed abilities are shared by Jedi and Sith alike...telekinesis, precognition, telepathy, etc....the only canonical side-specific ability is the 'Force lightning' employed by the Emperor and Darth Tyrannus. And even with that, notice that Yoda is able to interact with, and even absorb this manifestation of the Force. It seems likely that light-side users could employ this lightning as well, if only their moral standing swayed in another direction. Certainly, the major difference between the light and dark seems to be the method and philosophy of application...the dark for attack, the light for offense. And even that can be muddled...Luke chokes Jabba's henchmen just as Vader chokes his own henchmen, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Anakin, Kit Fisto, and others push battle droids in the same manner that Mr. Maul pushes Obi-Wan.
Additionally, the ability of Jedi to 'delve into the Dark Side' in moments of weakness during a battle, the ability of Yoda to 'probe the Dark Side,' and Luke and Anakin's journeys in and out of the two sides very strongly suggests that the light side and the dark side are simply two philosophies concerning the same Force.
This has long been my interpretation of the Force. Robert Brown goes into a little more detail about this and similar ideas on this page: http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/myth/tragedy.htm. It's unfinished as of now, but already excellent.

[SPOOFE]

The Dark Side does NOT destroy itself. It is said to destroy the beings who succumb to it.

Err, that's kinda what I was trying to get at.

[Iceberg]

It's probably heretical or something for me to say that, but on occasion I think that Rob Brown takes Star Wars WAY too seriously.

[Robert Treder]

Mr. Brown does seem to get maybe a little too emotional about Star Wars sometimes, but I wouldn't say he takes it too seriously...he takes it at least as seriously as Curtis Saxton takes it, and that's not a bad thing at all.
Regardless, the article is interesting so far. It looks like it's going to start going more into what I've been saying, that one might want to open their mind to the Force from a broader perspective than strictly Light vs. Dark.
After all, intratextually, though the Force is observable, the Jedi philosophy of approach should be looked at as a religion...and, as with a religion, you shouldn't take what its practitioners say about it for granted. Ask a Christian if God is loving, and he'll tell you 'yes'; ask a Confucianist if Confucius is wise, and he'll tell you 'yes'; ask a Jedi if the light side is good and the dark bad and he'll tell you 'yes.'
The Jedi Order is an ancient social institution, and it comes with all the behavorial baggage that any ancient social institution comes with. I don't think we should make the mistake of taking dialogue too literally and assuming that because various characters say that the Force is dual in nature it is necessarily so.

[BlueExcalibur]

A difference in Dark side a Light side philosophy is how they use the force. Jedi seem to want to flow more with the will of the force, where as Sith force it to do what they want.

[master_yoda]

We all know what Yoda said about the Dark Side: that it's not more powerful than the light, only easier and faster.
But what have we seen so far from our light/dark side warriors?

We saw Darth Maul, young Sith Apprentice kill Qui-Gon Jin, who was said to be one of the most powerful Jedi and one of the most skillful swordfighters of his time.
We saw Jango Fett, who was, after all, only an simple man tying to make his way in the universe, fight a relatively equally matched battle with Obi-Wan, who sure as hell wasn't one of less powerful Jedi. Jango was finally outmached, but he did clearly cause Obi some trouble.
We saw Count Dooku, Sith Apprentice, fight and defeat two Jedi at once, and only the very Jedi Master Yoda himself was able to force him to flee.
We saw Vader blocking blaster bolts only with his hand.

All that seems to indicate that the average dark force user can more or less easily defeat the average light side user, while some light side users even have trouble with ordinary bounty hunters! (Sure, Jango was the best - but I'd say every combat-experienced man with his armor and equipment could do what he did).

So, I have made up two possible conclusions:
Yoda lied, and the Dark Side is stronger
OR
Yoda didn't lie and both sides are equally strong, but while it takes some tens of years to become a master of the Dark Side, it will take you about 900 years to become a real Light Side master.
Now it's a pity most humans don't get that old, and it would explain why so many Jedi succumbed to the Dark Side.

Yeah thats so true.The dark side sith are the better warriors but the light side aren't only warriors.

[Aaron]

Jedi have to be very careful in how they use the force. Notice how Annakin said the Obi-Wan would be mad at him for using the force to feed Padme. For a Jedi, any excessive, unnecessary or selfish uses of the force leads to the temptation to use the force for you own personal gain. (Again, notice how only Annakin is show "playing" with things through the force, like the ball in Padme's apartment.)

The Sith, however, can use the force however they damn well please, since they aren't fighting temptations. Hence its easier and more seductive. The Sith are learning to fight and command the force while the Jedi are wasting away learning things like meditating and being passive. Its no wonder they get their ass kicked.

So, the Light side isn't weaker, it just takes longer to master since you have to, essentially, master self-control first.


Aaron

[Iceberg]

An interesting note from an RPG standpoint is this:

In the old West End Games SWRPG, when you had Dark Side Points, they gave you extra dice in your Force Skills (on a 1:1 basis), but the GM could also give "whispers of the Dark Side" to you as a player. Suggestions like, "It would be so easier later on if you just killed him now," or "A little torture to get the codes won't hurt anybody... but her." You had the option of not using the Dark Side dice, but that increased the difficulties of all your Force skill checks by one step. Good luck using Lightsaber Combat...

Long story short, if you had Dark Side Points, it became more and more of a temptation to use the Dark Side more often. The Dark Side really WAS "quicker, easier, more seductive" than spending 30, 60, 90 or more character points to advance your Force skills. Nasty cycle, it truly was.

And it ALWAYS came back to bite you on the ass eventually, because the second you failed a Dark Side check, game over, man. GM gets your character and you get JACK!!!

[Stark]

There doesn't seem to be any real difference in the observed manifestations of 'light' and 'dark' Force powers...it seems likely, to me, that the Force is one...er, force. The differences between 'light' and 'dark' are merely philosophical ones.

I agree - like all life-philosophies, for the Jedi the most important power is control. The Sith are little children, without limits, rules or responsibility. It isn't surprising they nearly killed themselves off.

And in a direct comparison, we have actually seen the 'Light' side lift much heavier things than the 'Dark' side, and Vader had to turn around to press a switch with the Force in ESB, when Jedi don't seem to have to have direct LOS at all. Also Yoda lifts starfighters and multi-ton bits of masonry (and he TOSSED the masonry aside).

[Rob Wilson]

So, I have made up two possible conclusions:
Yoda lied, and the Dark Side is stronger
OR
Yoda didn't lie and both sides are equally strong, but while it takes some tens of years to become a master of the Dark Side, it will take you about 900 years to become a real Light Side master.
Now it's a pity most humans don't get that old, and it would explain why so many Jedi succumbed to the Dark Side.

Or alternatively, the Light side is diluted between 1000's of Jedi and the Dark side is concentrated into just 2 Sith. Therefore a Sith apprentice is the match for a Jedi Master.

Ok it probably needs a lot more work on it, but it's a start for a premise anyway.

[Stark]

In AOTC it is revealed that the ability of the Jedi to use the Force is weakening... a lot of theories are out there about this, but I've never heard this one.

Yoda says that the Jedi are becoming more arrogant. Even the older ones. For whatever reason (there are many possibilities) isn't it possible that the Jedi are becoming, collectively, less pure? That they are all falling prey to vices, and thus losing their balance, the basis of their philosophy?

[Rob Wilson]

In AOTC it is revealed that the ability of the Jedi to use the Force is weakening... a lot of theories are out there about this, but I've never heard this one.

Yoda says that the Jedi are becoming more arrogant. Even the older ones. For whatever reason (there are many possibilities) isn't it possible that the Jedi are becoming, collectively, less pure? That they are all falling prey to vices, and thus losing their balance, the basis of their philosophy?

True, but after watching "Leering" Anakin Skywalker the chat-up king in action, I doubt he's ever going to bring purity back to the Force and nobody else would think it either.

Of course it could simply be that the Jedi think he will somehow find and deal with the Sith so as to stop them interfereing with the light side as much as they do. Or perhaps they want him to somehow find a new way to contact/channel the Force and so increase the flow of it to the Jedi and balance things that way.

[Stark]

True, but after watching "Leering" Anakin Skywalker the chat-up king in action, I doubt he's ever going to bring purity back to the Force and nobody else would think it either.

Well he *does* bring balance to the Force... by killing off the knowledge of the Force. If the Jedi and Sith were corruptions of something older, the slate has been wiped clean and the galaxy with have to gain all that wisdom again.

And I suggested that the Jedi order was becoming corrupt, not the Force itself.

[Rob Wilson]

True, but after watching "Leering" Anakin Skywalker the chat-up king in action, I doubt he's ever going to bring purity back to the Force and nobody else would think it either.

Well he *does* bring balance to the Force... by killing off the knowledge of the Force. If the Jedi and Sith were corruptions of something older, the slate has been wiped clean and the galaxy with have to gain all that wisdom again.

And I suggested that the Jedi order was becoming corrupt, not the Force itself.

Yeah, I know, but I'm trying to give reasons that the Jedi might think of that doesn't include their own complete obliteration. Somehow i doubt they'd be so anxious to find the Chosen one in that circumstance, do you?

[Stark]

Yeah, I know, but I'm trying to give reasons that the Jedi might think of that doesn't include their own complete obliteration. Somehow i doubt they'd be so anxious to find the Chosen one in that circumstance, do you?

Their precognition seems to have dramatic blind-spots with regards to their own future... especially when other Force-users are involved. And Yoda had apparently just noticed this tendency of young Jedi. I agree the part where he kills them all probably isn't written into the prophecy... but then we don't know yet WHO kills them all. We only know for sure that he kills the Emperor.

[StarshipTitanic]

I think it's fairly obvious that the balance was intended for the Dark Side.

[FireNexus]

I read the SW RPG book, but I couldn't get into the game. It was bad as far as RPGs go. It simply assumed that all characters wanted to be good guys.[/quote]

[Guest]

Well, I would say that the Light side is stronger, but it takes more concentration and time to master. The D Side is quick and easy.