imperial navy naming question

[hewhocaves]

Possibly a dumb question...

Is there a designation for all Imperial craft, i.e. a prefix similar to USS? I've been thumbing aroung the internet for a couple of hours now and I can't find anything like that. Since most people seem concerned with ISDs, I wonder if the ship class has become the official designation of the ship. If so, would an Imperial Strike Cruiser have the prefix ISC?

John

[RogueIce]

I see HIMS used around here a lot, for His Imperial Majesty's Ship (sort of a modification of the RN's HMS).

As to whether there's anything official or not (Hell, HIMS may be it), I haven't seen it thus far.

[Crazedwraith]

I don't thing theres ever been an offical USS style prefix. Most fanfics you read either use I.S.S (Imperial Star Ship) H.M.I.S, or the indiviadual class abbreiveation. eg. ISD ISDII ESD(executor stardestroyer) ECS (excutor command ship) etc.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Likely it should be "His Imperial Majesty's Ship" or "HIMS" as the Galactic Empire is a despotic imperial monarchy.

Similarly, the Galactic Republic should have "GRS"; the New Republic, "NRS"; the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances (Galactic Alliance), "GAS."

[FTeik]

I would prefer:

ISG = Imperial Gunship/Corvette
ISF = Imperial Star Frigate
ISD = Imperial Star Destroyer (Victory to Allegiance)
ISC = Imperial Star Cruiser (everything above Allegiance)

[Lord Pounder]

I would prefer:

ISG = Imperial Gunship/Corvette
ISF = Imperial Star Frigate
ISD = Imperial Star Destroyer (Victory to Allegiance)
ISC = Imperial Star Cruiser (everything above Allegiance)

Thats renaming classes of ship you doink. Have you ever heard of the British Royal Navy calling it's ship by class?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I would prefer:

ISG = Imperial Gunship/Corvette
ISF = Imperial Star Frigate
ISD = Imperial Star Destroyer (Victory to Allegiance)
ISC = Imperial Star Cruiser (everything above Allegiance)

That makes no sense.

The ship designation doesn't work like that.

A CVN, a BB, a FF, or a DDG are all "USS [ship name]"; it has nothing to do with role designations and slang/acronym abbreviations thereof, as you cite.

[RogueIce]

*snip*

...the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances (Galactic Alliance), "GAS."

*chuckles*

Anyway, like was said, if they did do something like ISD, ISF, or whatever, it'd be more along the lines of "HIMS Avenger (ISD 471)" or something, if you want to use the American way of doing these things.

Of course, I just pulled the "471" out of my ass. And I doubt they'd bother with designating ISD II vice just ISD, since it's basically the same class, just a different varient (or "flight" to use another term) of the same ship.

[hewhocaves]

hmmm... since there is no naming standard, and since I've apparantly been conditioned to expect some three character designation, I think I'll go with ISS.

The other options would be ESS (Empire Starship)
ISC (Imperial Space Craft)
INC or INS (Imperial Naval Ship/Craft)
IBC (Imperial Battle Craft)
HEC (His Emperor's Craft - but then I'd have to come up with a HIC and a HOC - feeble latin pun)

Naming them after classes, while unusual would not be as strange as some people think. By suggesting that you have to name ships like Earth ships, you're falling into that 'native bias' where everything has to be link home. You might also want to consider that the Empire would presume that you knew that they were talking about the Navy; there are after all a lot fewer independent navies in the SW Galaxy than on earth. Combine this with the sheer number of ships in the fleet and it might be more helpful to be able to differentiate between the ISD Vengence and the ISC Vengence.

I seem to recall a PC game ages ago where ISS was the standard moniker for ships. I can't remember if it was the original Starflight or an early version of Empire. Oh well.

John

[Illuminatus Primus]

That kind of marker isn't there to differenciate between those kind of distinctions.

That's why you have the Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser (CG) vs. Nimitz-class nuclear carrier vessel (CVN).

The USS is attached to the particular ship name, and identifies its ownership/service. The bit after the "[first of class' name]-class" tells you the role and type. The "guided missile cruiser" and "nuclear carrier vessel" tells us that.

I don't understand what is difficult for people to understand about that.

[Soulman]

What I want to know is how they came up with millions of names for their ships. Did they have 40,000 ships called HIMS Terrible or did they have a ship for every word in existance ( the ISD HIMS Rose) as well as some completely made up names like the HIMS Usddgf6fdfsf82?

[FTeik]

You would have covered the ownership/political affiliation with the I of "Imperial" and the rest would give you a rough idea, into which category the ship belongs.

Hmmm. how about ISN or ISF (Imperial Space Navy/ Imperial Space Fleet).

[Lord Pounder]

You would have covered the ownership/political affiliation with the I of "Imperial" and the rest would give you a rough idea, into which category the ship belongs.

Hmmm. how about ISN or ISF (Imperial Space Navy/ Imperial Space Fleet).

It may work. But as mentione above the Imperial Navy is of an Empire with an Monarch (Emperor) in charge therefore i'd say the His Imperial Majesties Ship is most likely. Plus Palpy being paly would want each and ever captain to remember just who really owned the ship he commanded.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You never use the adjectival form of a nation to describe the ship.

The WW2 Germans had a KMS, the Kriegsmarine Ship; the Japanese had HIJMS, His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Ship; etc.

It wasn't the "British Imperial ship" or the "German Ship."

Imperial whatever is simply incorrect by nomenclature.

The Empire, if it uses such designations, must use HIMS.

[hewhocaves]

That kind of marker isn't there to differenciate between those kind of distinctions.

That's why you have the Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser (CG) vs. Nimitz-class nuclear carrier vessel (CVN).

The USS is attached to the particular ship name, and identifies its ownership/service. The bit after the "[first of class' name]-class" tells you the role and type. The "guided missile cruiser" and "nuclear carrier vessel" tells us that.

While I agree that that kind of marker is there in present countries solely to designate national distinctions, I disagree that that is all it can distinguish absolutely.

If we accept the fiction that the Empire is an actaul entity, and it's history is completely independent of ours, it follows that we should be open to the possibilty that they do certaint hings diferent than we would do it. (If we all did everything the same, what would the point be to meet other people?) Following along that line of reasoning, if you consider that the empire is THE power in it's portion of the universe and that it essentially the only major nation-state (EU aside for the moment), then from the Empire's point of view, saying the ISN Whatever is redundant. After all, what other navies are there to compare it with? added to that the sheer magnitude of ships and you come to a point where it may be more useful to determine whether the Whatever is an ISD, a corvette or a garbage scow.

I don't understand what is difficult for people to understand about that.

It's not that we don't understand, it's simply that we may not agree. You may find your discussions severely truncated if you presume that everyone who doesn't agree with you is simply ignorant.

John

[hewhocaves]

(from a dictionary of Roman terms)
Imperator: Commander, leader. Title of honor awarded to a victorious general. Later, granted to emperors for military victories.

There's your 'I' in your ISS "Imperator Space Ship". Good ole latin always comes through, lol..

[FTeik]

I somehow doubt, that -even if he wanted- Palpatine as a self-proclaimed emperor/despot would have bothered much with a designation for the assets of his Navy, that included the word "Majesty".

And since there isn´t even one in the official or canon literature, we can´t even say, if its right or wrong in comparison to earth standards.

[Illuminatus Primus]

from the Empire's point of view, saying the ISN Whatever is redundant.

Utterly false statement. Disregarding the civilian vessels and military powers out in the boonies outside the galaxy and the mainstream civilization such as the Chiss, but there are other forces...

The Empire maintains client states such as Hutt Space and the Corporate Sector. The latter of which posesses the Picket Fleet; a military organization distinct and independent of the Galactic Empire. Furthermore, individual planetary governments remain soveriegn in the Galactic Empire (which is, contrary to popular belief, not an overcentralized unitary regime--but a decentralized federal state, albeit a despotic and militaristic one), and several, including Corellia, maintain their own military or paramilitary forces.

Why would Leia's exclamation that Alderaan had no weapons mean anything if the Empire had already forcibly disarmed all non-Imperial military forces and/or assimilated them into their own command structure?

And what of private military forces? Prince Xizor commanded one of the largest private navies in the galaxy; the Baron Tagge maintained considerable personal military might.

you come to a point where it may be more useful to determine whether the Whatever is an ISD, a corvette or a garbage scow.

I don't understand why you are being obtuse about that. That is the purpose of the role designation, ie., Lancer-class frigate; Victory-class star destroyer. That is what that means--the "whatever ship" prefix is not for that, and would be redundant.

It's not that we don't understand, it's simply that we may not agree. You may find your discussions severely truncated if you presume that everyone who doesn't agree with you is simply ignorant.

There's no room for disagreement. Since this is not in official or canon documents, if one wishes to apply such designations, they can mean only what they mean according to the standards and structure of English nomenclature. The meaning you assign to these designations is as arbitrary and irrelevent as me deciding to change the definition of English words; you cannot do it, because that's not what it is for or what it means. And that is disregarding the fact that your premises are utterly false: there are numerous other soveriegn powers which exercise independent military forces.

Palpatine as a self-proclaimed emperor/despot would have bothered much with a designation for the assets of his Navy, that included the word "Majesty".

Why not? Palpatine's proper address is "Your Imperial Majesty" by standard nomenclature and protocol. That's simply what they call reigning emperors.

[hewhocaves]

Utterly false statement. Disregarding the civilian vessels and military powers out in the boonies outside the galaxy and the mainstream civilization such as the Chiss, but there are other forces...

lol.. because we require that civilian ships have the designation USS. Like the USS Minnow. And yes, I do diregard civvie vessels, little bands of vagrants and countries that have about as much effect on Imperial policy as Monaco has on US policy. As for the Chiss, whatever. If you feel like tossing them in and saying they're a big threat to the Empire, then more power to you.

The Empire maintains client states such as Hutt Space and the Corporate Sector. The latter of which posesses the Picket Fleet; a military organization distinct and independent of the Galactic Empire.

then you obviously have no clue what the phrase 'client state' means. It may be distinct, but ultimately it's orders come higher than it's own soveriignity. see 'Finlandization'.

Furthermore, individual planetary governments remain soveriegn in the Galactic Empire (which is, contrary to popular belief, not an overcentralized unitary regime--but a decentralized federal state, albeit a despotic and militaristic one)

Wait... wait.. a despotic militaristic federation? this is your argument? So like, what, the UN with a recruitment policy? The Articles of Confederation with snappy uniforms? If anything, the empire is based on Imperial Rome, ruled absolutely by a single dictator with the barest pretenses of republicanism. Not that that is bad, mind you. Rome lasted four and a half centuries that way and Byzantium lasted fourteen centuries. The empire has excellent infrastructure, a highly ordered chain of command, and serious indoctrination to obey orders. This is not the hallmark of a 'decentralized federal state'.

Why would Leia's exclamation that Alderaan had no weapons mean anything if the Empire had already forcibly disarmed all non-Imperial military forces and/or assimilated them into their own command structure?

Why would they bother? Let them keep their own police forces, saves on labor costs. Who cares if they keep a fighter group or two when you can pound their planet to slag from orbit. You also have to consider that the empire was in it's first generation of existance. There are a lot of loose ends to tie up when you're administering thousands of worlds. Obviously, you take out the trouble ones first.

And what of private military forces? Prince Xizor commanded one of the largest private navies in the galaxy; the Baron Tagge maintained considerable personal military might.

again. puny potatoes. Can they take out a whole fleet? several fleets? here we see the similarity to rome again. leave things in the hands of the regional governors (Who, we might recall after ANH have direct control over their systems. Yeah, real federated there.) and only step in where necessary. So long as taxes get collected and recruits get recruited it's not a problem.

There's no room for disagreement. Since this is not in official or canon documents...

Ah, and here we come to the reason behind the force of my arguments. usually, I'm not combatative, but as you said yourself, it's NOT canon. Therefore there is all the room in the world for disagreement; that's what forums are set up for. Now keep in mind that I never said that I would consider using these designations which are causing you such consternation. however, I still think that you should do a little self-introspection to try and figure out why the mere prospect of a opinion which differs from yours causes you such anguish. It'll lead to high blood pressure in later years.

Anyway, I've gotten enough useful thoughts and answers to my initial question. Thanks to everybody who chimed in on this.

John

[Illuminatus Primus]

lol.. because we require that civilian ships have the designation USS. Like the USS Minnow.

I stand corrected.

And yes, I do diregard civvie vessels, little bands of vagrants and countries that have about as much effect on Imperial policy as Monaco has on US policy.

The size of other forces respective to the U.S. has precisely no bearing on whether they direct to designation their ships thus, or whether we do.

As for the Chiss, whatever. If you feel like tossing them in and saying they're a big threat to the Empire, then more power to you.

Red herrings. The purpose of this discussion is to say, "if the Imperial Navy used this common real-world designation system, how would they?"

The most obvious English protocol analogy was provided, and you have responded by simply making something up with has not a single basis in real world protocol, Star Wars, or anything else.

then you obviously have no clue what the phrase 'client state' means. It may be distinct, but ultimately it's orders come higher than it's own soveriignity. see 'Finlandization'.

A client state still exercises its own military forces distinct and independent from the imperial power. Your point is a red herring. Before the Dominion of Canada was formally independent of the British Empire, it still sailed under "Her/His Majesty's Canadian Ship."

If anything, the empire is based on Imperial Rome, ruled absolutely by a single dictator with the barest pretenses of republicanism.

The Galactic Emperor is not a dictator; a dictator is a political leader who rules by powers granted in an emergency. (The Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Senate and Galactic Republic is, however, a dictator as of the passing of the Emergency Powers Act as seen in Attack of the Clones.) The Galactic Empire is a despotate headed by a non-hereditary imperial monarch.

Fortunately, your bullshit about Rome is based on analogies which happen to be false.

The Galactic Republic is actually more centralized in political administration than the Galactic Empire: observe The Phantom Menace; the blockade of a minor sectorial capital in the Rim by a shipping company's military forces warrants an appeal to the Galactic Senate. What kind of a system does that? What about the military forces and assembly of the Chommell Sector itself? What about a regional government? Only the Galactic Senate is empowered to act on the violation of a single world's soveriegnty? This is like an armed mob or labor strike afflicting a single city in the U.S. The National Guard and the state government should deal with it, not the U.S. Federal Government. Do not confuse military organization with the concentration of political power: the Galactic Senate and the Galactic Judiciary hold nearly all the political power of the old Republic. They were merely incompetant to implement, not powerless.

Constrast this with the Galactic Empire. In A New Hope, the Imperial Senate is disbanded, granting the local Moff Governors total control over their territory. The Original Trilogy depicts a decentralizing Empire. They administer an Empire-in-miniature in each sector: raising their own naval and army forces, operating divisions of COMPNOR, Imperial Intelligence, and with carte blanche to deal with insurrection and piracy and terrorism within their territory (what do you think the Sector Groups were for?). While the Galactic Senate wringed its hands over the Naboo issue, a single sector's Moff had authorization to, at will, Base Delta Zero a world which defied him. They hold an incredible level of political power. According to both the A New Hope novelisation by Alan Dean Foster and The New Essential Guide to Characters by Daniel Wallace, HIM the Emperor Palpatine was increasingly an absentee ruler, delegating day-to-day decisions to his Grand Vizier, Sate Pestage, and his Advisor, Ars Dangor, while he retreated to his studies in the Dark Side of the Force. Meanwhile, the Rebellion was handled by his local Moffs and Grand Moffs. The Rebellion was of no concern to him. Hardly the micromanaging overlord many (including the in-universe Rebels and subsequent Republicans, but they are politically niave and/or stupid, and should not be construed as disproving the vast sea of evidence to the contrary) have claimed he is.

This is not the hallmark of a 'decentralized federal state'.

You know little about the meaning of the word "federal" and less about Star Wars.

Why would they bother? Let them keep their own police forces, saves on labor costs. Who cares if they keep a fighter group or two when you can pound their planet to slag from orbit. You also have to consider that the empire was in it's first generation of existance. There are a lot of loose ends to tie up when you're administering thousands of worlds. Obviously, you take out the trouble ones first.

Funny that a mercenary group could slag the Mistryl homeworld, same as any Imperial star destroyer, no?

leave things in the hands of the regional governors (Who, we might recall after ANH have direct control over their systems. Yeah, real federated there.)

fed·er·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fdr-l, fdrl)
adj.

Of or constituting a form of government in which sovereign power is divided between a central authority and a number of constituent political units. (emphasis mine)

You imbecile. The fact that local sectorial governors had nigh-absolute power over their dominions proves federalism in the Empire. Unitarism would involve the bureaucracy or brass on Coruscant making each and every decision across the regions and localities of the Empire (much like the incompetent senators of the old Republic). Clearly, the local units of the Empire retain LARGE political powers.

"Federal" != "liberal republic".

You've proved nothing about why, in lieu of official evidence, one would choose an entirely fabricated system of designation intended to be in the place of something with a perfect analogy within the bounds of English protocol.

Therefore there is all the room in the world for disagreement; that's what forums are set up for. Now keep in mind that I never said that I would consider using these designations which are causing you such consternation. however, I still think that you should do a little self-introspection to try and figure out why the mere prospect of a opinion which differs from yours causes you such anguish. It'll lead to high blood pressure in later years.

While I appreciate your cloaked asshole behavior in the form of subtle armchair psychoanalysis and implications I have precisely no idea what I'm talking about, you have no justified why when in coming up with a prefered Star Wars in-universe application of the "USS" style designation one would choose to adopt your fabricated and redundant system in lieu of direct analogies with real-world navies that are inside the expectation of protocol in English.

[hewhocaves]

A client state still exercises its own military forces distinct and independent from the imperial power. Your point is a red herring. Before the Dominion of Canada was formally independent of the British Empire, it still sailed under "Her/His Majesty's Canadian Ship."

Canada was a colony. A client state implies previous independence.

The Galactic Emperor is not a dictator; a dictator is a political leader who rules by powers granted in an emergency. (The Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Senate and Galactic Republic is, however, a dictator as of the passing of the Emergency Powers Act as seen in Attack of the Clones.) The Galactic Empire is a despotate headed by a non-hereditary imperial monarch.

point taken. The empire progressed from a dictator granted emergency powers to an absolute non-hereditary monarchy.

Fortunately, your bullshit about Rome is based on analogies which happen to be false.

lovely. you kiss your mom with that mouth?

The Galactic Republic is ...
Constrast this with the Galactic Empire...

and you're confusing confederation with indifference. Simply because an official chooses not to exercise the power he has doesn't mean that power does not exist.

Of or constituting a form of government in which sovereign power is divided between a central authority and a number of constituent political units. (emphasis mine)

My point extactly. A federation is a divsion of power. Absolute forms of government have delegation of responsibilites. You really should proofread your definitions.

You've proved nothing about why, in lieu of official evidence, one would choose an entirely fabricated system of designation intended to be in the place of something with a perfect analogy within the bounds of English protocol.

I never intended to. I only suggested possible alternatives. And yes, I did suggest why (size of navy and narrowmindedness leading to the beleif that the Imperial nave is the only one of any true worth) they might use a completely different form of nomencalture.

While I appreciate your cloaked asshole behavior in the form of subtle armchair psychoanalysis and implications I have precisely no idea what I'm talking about, you have no justified why when in coming up with a prefered Star Wars in-universe application of the "USS" style designation one would choose to adopt your fabricated and redundant system in lieu of direct analogies with real-world navies that are inside the expectation of protocol in English.

Personally, I think that this conversation is exhausted. If your really feel the need to continue with the verbal abuse, please feel free to do so. I for one, have no desire to see this degenerate any further. Therefore, I'm removing the auto-reply on my email for this thread. If you want to take this as a sign that you have 'won', please do so. I'm not sure what you've won, but no doubt it's worth it.

John

[Illuminatus Primus]

Canada was a colony. A client state implies previous independence.

Your argument was predicated on the fact that client states are subunits and not independent of their protecting nation; the fact that a more tightly bound unit has its own designation cleanly refutes your argument.

Moreover, the British dominions were client states by definition:

client state
n.
A country that is dependent on the economic or military support of a larger, more powerful country

lovely. you kiss your mom with that mouth?

Look at that line under "STARDESTROYER.NET." Mostly, observe the "....mockery of stupid people" bit.

and you're confusing confederation with indifference. Simply because an official chooses not to exercise the power he has doesn't mean that power does not exist.

The burden of proof is on you to show that the Senate or High Command or Advisors has the power that a Moff does at the sectorial level. This is an Argument from Ignorance, and is invalid. For all practical purposes, political power in the Empire is shared with the individual sectors--perhaps even primarly in the hands of the sectors.

My point extactly. A federation is a divsion of power. Absolute forms of government have delegation of responsibilites. You really should proofread your definitions.

The fact that the Galactic Empire is a despot with the option of absolute power does not change the fact that powers are practically shared between the local units of government and the galactic body on Coruscant. Not to mention that The Imperial Sourcebook tells us that the member worlds of the Empire are soveriegn and that the Imperial Charter was signed by all the member worlds.

I never intended to. I only suggested possible alternatives. And yes, I did suggest why (size of navy and narrowmindedness leading to the beleif that the Imperial nave is the only one of any true worth) they might use a completely different form of nomencalture.

An assumption without basis, which also made no sense: "His Emperor's Ship"?

Personally, I think that this conversation is exhausted. If your really feel the need to continue with the verbal abuse, please feel free to do so. I for one, have no desire to see this degenerate any further. Therefore, I'm removing the auto-reply on my email for this thread. If you want to take this as a sign that you have 'won', please do so. I'm not sure what you've won, but no doubt it's worth it.

Whatever newb. Your style over substance whining does nothing for your arguments.

[Lord Sander]

point taken. The empire progressed from a dictator granted emergency powers to an absolute non-hereditary monarchy.

Uh, nitpick, but we really don't know if it's non-hereditary or not. Those who were said to be his children certainly made a bid for the throne based on a hereditary claim.

[Techno_Union]

Emperor Palpatine had planned to rule forever over the Empire, thats on of the reasons he had so many clones. When he died there was no right of succesion which led to the Imperial Civil War. The people claiming to be his family were merely another part of the group of Imperials trying to claim leadership over the dying empire.

[phongn]

Utterly false statement. Disregarding the civilian vessels and military powers out in the boonies outside the galaxy and the mainstream civilization such as the Chiss, but there are other forces...

lol.. because we require that civilian ships have the designation USS. Like the USS Minnow.

That would be incorrect. Civilian ships under the US flag are properly prefixed with "SS." A notable example would be SS United States. Civilian-manned US naval ships have the prefix "USNS" (e.g. USNS Mercy) and military-crewed US naval ships have the prefix "USS."

Similarly, civilian ships flagged under the British flag have the prefix "RMS" and military ships under the British flag have the prefix "HMS."

EDIT: Civilian ships don't usually use "SS" anymore, since that designates "steam ship." The proper term would be MV or "motor vessel."