A Consistent, Realistic SWU: Fixing EU Minimalism

[Illuminatus Primus]

Thinking about the industrial scale and capacity illustrated by a galactic-wide civilization, and the Death Star II, and then looking at the shit throughout the post-ROTJ and even Prequel EU, I am left bewlidered.

So let us play the part of SW historian, both analyzing and speculating.

What happened to the huge Imperial Starfleet? Why wasn't it replaced? Why did the NR use second-hand, modified, and fringe-world nonoptimal designs for so long? How did the same NR which was losing to Thrawn have a strategic advantage against the Empire at the end of Dark Empire? Why does the NR resist building large-scale, optimal naval forces? Why didn't the Empire continue its maximalist policies and sensible military scales?

[Solauren]

The Imperial fleet tore itself to pieces in a massive imperial civil war that saw dozens of admirals and moffs try to kill each other.

25,000 Star Destroyers trying to kill each other would tear a fleet up very quickly

[consequences]

Towards the end of the beginning of Dark Empire, the World Devestators were turned on each other. It is possible they were also turned on the rest of the Imperial Fleet, and that there were a lot of WDs at staging areas with large portions of that fleet that weren't felt to be needed at Mon Calamari.

[Kuja]

What happened to the huge Imperial Starfleet?

Ripped to pieces by feuding warlords, hoarded by warlords who went turtle and did nothing, some elements could have been gathered by the Clone Emperor, and some probably chose to simply surrender and/or switch sides once the New Republic's advantage became clear.

Why wasn't it replaced?

The NR's reluctance to rearm at such a high level is probably the primary reason.

Why did the NR use second-hand, modified, and fringe-world nonoptimal designs for so long?

See above.

How did the same NR which was losing to Thrawn have a strategic advantage against the Empire at the end of Dark Empire?

Probably because Thrawn's effectiveness convinced them to get their asses in gear and actually build up a fleet instead of sitting around and hoping everyone will get along.

Why does the NR resist building large-scale, optimal naval forces?

Backlash against the highly militarized Empire and the Clone Wars. After the billions of deaths caused by Alderaan's destruction and the slagging of numerous worlds in the Clone Wars, most people in the NR were no doubt eager to set a more peaceful example and hope everyone would follow suit.

Why didn't the Empire continue its maximalist policies and sensible military scales?

They were afraid to lose good men and material to rogue warlords. They might have slashed shipbuilding contracts to prevent renegades from running off with brand-new ships that had already been paid for. (This might explain why Wedge was so reluctant to accept the possibility that KDY was working on an Executor-class in Iron Fist)

[Stormbringer]

What happened to the huge Imperial Starfleet?

Two places, the vast majority of the Imperial Starfleet (which was never particularly numerous compared to the number of worlds to be covered) simply gets chewed up in a massive civil war. Sure 25,000 is a lot but with everyone and their mother playing the warlord game those get to be spread awfully thin to begin with. And then you have warlords savaging each other on a regularly basis and it's not easy to see how simply attrition to could eat up most of the fleet in a short time.

And on top that most planets seem inclined to break away from the Empire or the warlords so a lot of the fleet is also going to be committed just holding on to what you have. So the ratio of ships in combat to ships on garrison duty might account for a significant chunk of the remaining fleet.

Why wasn't it replaced?

Simple, the economic setup based on a unified galatic government came apart. As Curtis Saxton mentions on his page about the Seperatists, loosing a few vital links in the chain and it all comes apart. With the warlords all competing and the New Republic holding a lot of key worlds the old KDY/Imperial supply chain was probably shot totally to hell. Any ships built probably have to be done out of largely local resources and they might well have to be rebuilt and are probably less than adequate to the task.

And of course the Galatic Civil War probably shot the hell out of the economy in general making war supplies something of a luxury.

Why did the NR use second-hand, modified, and fringe-world nonoptimal designs for so long?

I forget who said it but here's a quote that still hold true in a GFFA: "Capital ship design is as much a political exercise as a technical one."

To put it simply, the New Republic would rather use less than optimal designs rather than appear too Imperial. The big fear in assembling any kind of significant force is of the government weild too much power. Look at how upset people were over the Fifth (?) Fleet in BFC. And of course Mon Mothma's decision to scrap most of the major, captured Imperial battleships, an decree few significant units escaped. Leia apparently lacked the clout to do more than keep a couple captured units.

Of course not all their ships are bad ones, just rarely built in enough numbers or backed up with junk.

How did the same NR which was losing to Thrawn have a strategic advantage against the Empire at the end of Dark Empire?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they already posses one? It's just that Thrawn's hit and run tactics tied down the bulk of the NR fleet covering world. They were doing rear area duty instead of pulling real combat duty.

Why does the NR resist building large-scale, optimal naval forces?

Again, the fear of Empire.

Why didn't the Empire continue its maximalist policies and sensible military scales?

They probably lacked the means. Even the relatively well off Deep Core simply couldn't. Again for the same reasons they never rebuilt the losses in the civil war; large scale economic disruption and a lack of financing.

[Stofsk]

...And of course Mon Mothma's decision to scrap most of the major, captured Imperial battleships, an decree few significant units escaped. Leia apparently lacked the clout to do more than keep a couple captured units.

Where and when did this happen? And what was her reasoning (or lack thereof)? To not appear "imperial?" It seems like a totally stupid act but I can't recall it happening; one of the books?

[Rogue 9]

...And of course Mon Mothma's decision to scrap most of the major, captured Imperial battleships, an decree few significant units escaped. Leia apparently lacked the clout to do more than keep a couple captured units.

Where and when did this happen? And what was her reasoning (or lack thereof)? To not appear "imperial?" It seems like a totally stupid act but I can't recall it happening; one of the books?

Black Fleet Crisis. Leia (I think, I'm not sure who's line it was) lamented the dismantling of the Republic's only captured SSD (the Lusankya, I presume) at Mon Mothma's orders when she learned of the Intimidator, renamed the Pride of Yevetha.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Lusankya actually survived until the NJO.

[Rogue 9]

Lusankya actually survived until the NJO.

Then I have to assume that it was recommissioned. The Republic was mobilizing all through the Black Fleet Crisis; I'd imagine that KDY or somebody was taking Lusankya out of mothballs. They needed some counter for the Intimidator. (At least the author didn't wank over having a couple squadrons of K-wings blow off the bridge and crash the ship into the moon or something. Unlike the Lusankya at Thyferra, the Intimidator was in better than prime condition.)

[18-Till-I-Die]

Two places, the vast majority of the Imperial Starfleet (which was never particularly numerous compared to the number of worlds to be covered) simply gets chewed up in a massive civil war. Sure 25,000 is a lot but with everyone and their mother playing the warlord game those get to be spread awfully thin to begin with.

Uh, didnt it say somewhere, one of the tech books or something, that when the Old Republic fell they left millions of frigates and cruisers behind? Where did all those fly off to?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Into the Imperial Navy.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Into the Imperial Navy.

No shit, i mean it wasnt like they should've disappeared by the time of the EU. When the Empire fell, all those ships that used to be the Imperial Navy should've been arround, so why didnt the NR integrate some of them into it's fleet. I've only read a few of the books, so forgive me if i'm way off.

[Rogue 9]

And they weren't ISDs, which is what the 25,000 number represents.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Ever hear of the Imperial Civil War? A lot of ships were lost in that.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well That cleared up some things . Luckily, now i wont have to weather through the other EU novels like i weathered through the New Jedi Order.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Thinking about the industrial scale and capacity illustrated by a galactic-wide civilization, and the Death Star II, and then looking at the shit throughout the post-ROTJ and even Prequel EU, I am left bewlidered.

So let us play the part of SW historian, both analyzing and speculating.

What happened to the huge Imperial Starfleet?

Like most said, it was destroyed in the First Imperial Civil War. It almost doesn't matter how big it is. If a high-enough percentage of military officers participate, most of it will be lost.

Why wasn't it replaced?

Except for the chaos, which no doubt influenced how well production goes, I suppose another limitation is the death of most of the training cadre during the Imperial Civil War.

An veteran, whether he's officially instructing at some Academy or just being a mentor on an operational warship to the rookies, can only handle so many newbies at once.

Let's take the story of the Star Destroyers of a single sector as a microcosm of the whole.

The Sector has 24 Star Destroyers. Each Star Destroyer supposedly has 4520 officers. That alone is 108480 officers. If we assume officers last 20 years in the Imperial Navy on average (before they go KIA or retire or something,) the local Sector Academy has to pump out about 5424 officers yearly.

(There are a few from the Imperial Academy, but considering the tightness of their draw, they would only add a relative few officers.)

Furthermore, the Empire segregates its people. Of these 5424 cadets, 5% (271) would qualify for flight. Perhaps another 30% (1627) would have to be split between Support Service branch.

If you lose say 20 of them, that's 90,400 officers short (and that's presuming your intact Star Destroyers hadn't taken any damage that would cause them to lose officers.) At the normal rate of replacement, your Academies can replace them in 16-17 years. And there is only so much you can do to ramp up training.

Even if the 20 destroyers are replaced in a year, what are you going to do? Tell your 23,504 remaining officers (including the Ensigns just fresh out of the Academy) to lead all 24 destroyers? The ISD may have a huge disparity between full and skeleton crew complement, but this is pushing it.

[Shaidar Haran]

Into the Imperial Navy.

No shit, i mean it wasnt like they should've disappeared by the time of the EU. When the Empire fell, all those ships that used to be the Imperial Navy should've been arround, so why didnt the NR integrate some of them into it's fleet. I've only read a few of the books, so forgive me if i'm way off.

They integrated some, the Empire and Warlords snatched up some, and a hell of a lot simply got fed into the meat grinder. If anything, lighter forces (aka expendable) are more likely to be risked and consequently more likely to be destroyed. So while there were a lot of them out there, simple attrition in the war takes care of them as nicely as any other class.

[FTeik]

And don´t forget Palpatine spreading chaos and disorder from Byss after ROTJ until he was ready to reveal himself. That, too, could partly explain, why the imperial build-up of forces after Endor didn´t worked as well as it should have.

Sidenote:

How large do we think the imperial infrastructure really was?

Because i find a little bit hypocritical, when we argue against minimalism in the EU, because the empire was able to build 60% percent of a 900 kilometer battlestation in less than a year, when the timeframe of less than a year - guess what - comes from the EU, too.

[Lord of the Farce]

How large do we think the imperial infrastructure really was?

Because i find a little bit hypocritical, when we argue against minimalism in the EU, because the empire was able to build 60% percent of a 900 kilometer battlestation in less than a year, when the timeframe of less than a year - guess what - comes from the EU, too.

True, the less than a year does seem to come from EU, but even an extremely conservative estimate of 3 years (it was constructed in total secret, don't forget) hardly makes it any less impressive.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Because i find a little bit hypocritical, when we argue against minimalism in the EU, because the empire was able to build 60% percent of a 900 kilometer battlestation in less than a year, when the timeframe of less than a year - guess what - comes from the EU, too.

The occasional spark of intelligence does not excuse the ocean of stupidity.

[FTeik]

Because i find a little bit hypocritical, when we argue against minimalism in the EU, because the empire was able to build 60% percent of a 900 kilometer battlestation in less than a year, when the timeframe of less than a year - guess what - comes from the EU, too.

The occasional spark of intelligence does not excuse the ocean of stupidity.

Spark of intelligence or exception to the rule?

[Sharp-kun]

Why did the NR use second-hand, modified, and fringe-world nonoptimal designs for so long?

Becase they were overly obsessed with appearences. They wanted to look as different from the Empire as possible, and in doing so, failed to realise that the Empire actually had the right idea in some areas - Capital Ships being one of them.

How did the same NR which was losing to Thrawn have a strategic advantage against the Empire at the end of Dark Empire?

In Heir to the Empire doesn't Han say at the start that they're nearly evenly gunned?

Why does the NR resist building large-scale, optimal naval forces?

See above - appearance.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Because i find a little bit hypocritical, when we argue against minimalism in the EU, because the empire was able to build 60% percent of a 900 kilometer battlestation in less than a year, when the timeframe of less than a year - guess what - comes from the EU, too.

Because that claim agrees with a realistic picture and assessment of the scale given to us by the films. The rest is in conflict with that and also much more predominant a feature of the EU.

[FTeik]

Because i find a little bit hypocritical, when we argue against minimalism in the EU, because the empire was able to build 60% percent of a 900 kilometer battlestation in less than a year, when the timeframe of less than a year - guess what - comes from the EU, too.

Because that claim agrees with a realistic picture and assessment of the scale given to us by the films. The rest is in conflict with that and also much more predominant a feature of the EU.

Excuse me?

The only thing we get from the films, that indicates a large industrial infrastructure is the DeathStarII and there we don´t get a number for how long the empire is already building at the thing.

Even for the one million major worlds we have to turn to the ANH-novel and from the quote there this one million could include everything from Coruscant to Tattoine.

Not to mention, that 10,000 Jedi-Knights or 1,200,000 million clone-soldiers are considered large forces.

[Sharp-kun]

The only thing we get from the films, that indicates a large industrial infrastructure is the DeathStarII and there we don´t get a number for how long the empire is already building at the thing.

ANy construction would have been after ANH. Ignoring the EU, that only gives a few years. Thats including designing it.

Even for the one million major worlds we have to turn to the ANH-novel and from the quote there this one million could include everything from Coruscant to Tattoine.

Well we're told there are "a lot" of Executor class ships by Han. That says something right there. They were common enough that seeing one at a relativly undefended construction site was nothing to worry about.

Not to mention, that 10,000 Jedi-Knights or 1,200,000 million clone-soldiers are considered large forces.

In the days of the Republic, which lacked a military.