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Who would you rather serve under in the empire, Grand Admiral Thrawn or Darth Vader

This is kind of a no brainer. Darth Vader kills people who fail whether the failure was their fault or not. Thrawn does not. The chances of dying, therefore, are greatly decreased by serving under Thrawn.

True but some people might like the thought of serving under someone as evil as darth vader especially if they are equally evil themselves

One answer; Thrawn.
I'd prefer to stay alive, thank you very much.

To be quite honest i wouldn't be afraid to serve under darth vader but Grand Admiral Thrawn is more interesting than darth vader is

more likely to win under thrawn as well... definately thrawn.

Darth Vader. I'd ask for his autograph, like Rimmer did when he met Napoleon in "Better than Life."

Thrawn wastes too much time with complicated plans, and as much as I might enjoy subtlety I don't think Thrawn is the master of it. And don't forget he kills a crewman for receiving lousy training from his superior officer. Think about that for a second:

Vader kills Ozzel, who makes a blatant tactical mistake. He kills Needa for somehow managing to lose the Falcon. Both of these men are high-ranking officers, commanders, and leaders - and they fucked up. In vader's eyes they set a poor example to their crew.

Thrawn kills the crewman operating the tractor beam console because Luke used an unconventional maneuvre to escape. The officer in charge of the crewman neglected his training of the man, who admits as much shortly before Thrawn has him killed. Think about that - Vader kills (supposedly) experienced men who are (supposedly) tactically competent - kills them for mistakes that obviously could have been prevented; which means they're actually incompetent officers. This allows someone like Piet to replace Ozzel, and Piet is more competent it seems than Ozzel was.

Thrawn on the other hand executes a crewman as punishment of the officer. The crewman's training was incomplete, his instruction was faulty, and the responsibility lies with his superior officer who's supposed to train him. Thrawn kills the crewman rather than punish the officer directly.

Now I hate to spoil your Thrawn fantasy worship, but who would you rather have as your CO? Vader, who will kill you if you fuck up? Or Thrawn, who will kill you if your superior fucks up?

Chris Pieterson was killed, because he failed to take responsibility for his mistake, not because he made a mistake in the first place.

And was Vader really that killing-machine? True, he killed Ozzel and Needa in the movies, but - for example - he let Admiral Giel alive and only demoted him.

FTeik wrote:Chris Pieterson was killed, because he failed to take responsibility for his mistake, not because he made a mistake in the first place.

Bullshit. Pietersen acknowledged it was his responsibility - he was manning the console, afterall - but he defended himself by saying that his instruction wasn't complete. Thrawn killed him because he didn't give a shit about him, to be perfectly frank. (Thrawn's Chiss, remember? They're xenophobic racists - Pietersen was worthless in his eyes, given the casual brutality of his execution - no fucking trial or investigation, no brig time, just a point of the finger and his personal assassin takes care of the rest)

Note, I am not arguing that Pieteren shouldn't have been punished - but the goal of discipline is to instruct the person on actions which aren't suitable, and instruct them on actions they should have done. Was Pietersen's crime that bad that it should warrant execution? And given that Ensign Colclazure was responsible for the man (as an officer, he is responsible for the actions of the men he is assigned to watch over) why wasn't he punished by Thrawn? He was at greater fault. Pietersen said he couldn't help losing Luke because he didn't know how to reacquire the lock - his training hadn't covered target re-acquisition. Thrawn couldn't give a shit, and shoots him after making some bullshit rationalisation that a "mistake is only a mistake if you allow it to occur." Great, he just killed a crewman who was guilty of a minor screwup, and he's already short on men and ships, and the officer at real fault sighs with relief that he wasn't the motherfucker who saw the business end of a blaster rifle. What a fucking great leader.

The dialog went roughly this way.

Pieterson: It wasn´t my fault.

Thrawn: I want to know, why it wasn´t your fault.

Pieterson: I was never trained for something like this.

Officer: The training also covers incidents like this.

And i would hardly call letting Luke Skywalker escape a minor screw-up.

FTeik wrote:*snip dialogue*

You seem to be forgetting the crux of my point, that is the officer is responsible for the training of this man, who says that his own training isn't complete. He may be just saying that to get the heat off his arse, but the fact of the matter is Thrawn doesn't bother looking into it.

So why doesn't he punish Colclazure? Being the officer in charge of Pietersen he has ultimate responsibility. Better yet why doesn't Thrawn have Pietersen court-martialed? At least then you could properly evaluate what happened. Maybe Pietersen was full of shit; maybe he was telling the truth. Too late now, with a blaster wound in his chest...

And i would hardly call letting Luke Skywalker escape a minor screw-up.

No? Too bad, 'cause I will. Luke is one man in a fighter, and his escape was more trouble than it was worth - if Mara hadn't found him when she did then that would be 1 week Luke would spend in deep space, in a Jedi trance. Even if he escaped from them, Thrawn knew that when he jumps out of hyperspace his x-wing would be in disrepair.

Allowing Luke to escape, particularly when he performed an unexpected maneuvre, is less of a screw up than jumping Death Squadron too close to Hoth so the Rebels are alerted and can evacuate (which goes against SOP), or letting the Millenium Falcon escape pursuit when you have no asteroid obstruction nor and impediments to using the tractor beam.

Rogue 9 wrote:This is kind of a no brainer. Darth Vader kills people who fail whether the failure was their fault or not. Thrawn does not. The chances of dying, therefore, are greatly decreased by serving under Thrawn.

nothing to add on that

about the thing about Thrawn killing that crewman, i didnt know. I know jack shit from EU

Stofsk wrote:

FTeik wrote:*snip dialogue*

You seem to be forgetting the crux of my point, that is the officer is responsible for the training of this man, who says that his own training isn't complete. He may be just saying that to get the heat off his arse, but the fact of the matter is Thrawn doesn't bother looking into it.

Right. And the Nazi-soldiers in the concentration-camps were not guilty, since they were only following orders.

So why doesn't he punish Colclazure? Being the officer in charge of Pietersen he has ultimate responsibility. Better yet why doesn't Thrawn have Pietersen court-martialed? At least then you could properly evaluate what happened. Maybe Pietersen was full of shit; maybe he was telling the truth. Too late now, with a blaster wound in his chest...

Perhaps because an officer with academy-training, who probabely joined the imperial military on his own is still a better resource, than a conscripted tractor-beam-operator recruited by force, even if the officer was sloppy in that special case. I´m sure something like this didn´t happen to Colclazure again.

Aside from that Thrawn didn´t kill General Drost, who was responsible for the loss of an almost completed star destroyer at the shipyards of Bilbringi, he didn´t kill the later Prince-Admiral Krennel, who disobied his orders in the UR and he didn´t kill the captain of the star destroyer (correct me, if i´m wrong here) he used when first back in the UR with imperial orders. Hardly the actions of a racist asshole (and nothing in TTT or HOT indicates, that Thrawn or his followers are racists), that only waits for an excuse to get rid of some subhuman (in that case subchiss) scum, that annoyed him.

And i would hardly call letting Luke Skywalker escape a minor screw-up.

No? Too bad, 'cause I will. Luke is one man in a fighter, and his escape was more trouble than it was worth - if Mara hadn't found him when she did then that would be 1 week Luke would spend in deep space, in a Jedi trance. Even if he escaped from them, Thrawn knew that when he jumps out of hyperspace his x-wing would be in disrepair.

Allowing Luke to escape, particularly when he performed an unexpected maneuvre, is less of a screw up than jumping Death Squadron too close to Hoth so the Rebels are alerted and can evacuate (which goes against SOP), or letting the Millenium Falcon escape pursuit when you have no asteroid obstruction nor and impediments to using the tractor beam.

Luke was responsible for the destruction of the first DeathStar. He defeated Darth Vader and by that the emperor (as far as the imperials are concerned). He is a major figure of the rebellion and the last (or first) of the Jedi. If DV´s goal at Hoth hadn´t been the capture of Luke Skywalker the imperials could have lent back and bombared the planet until the shield dropped eliminating everybody on the surface.

FTeik wrote:Right. And the Nazi-soldiers in the concentration-camps were not guilty, since they were only following orders.

That's an asinine comparison and you should be ashamed. A far more reasonable comparison would be a German U-boat crewman losing a Liberty ship on sonar because he was improperly trained.

Vader had the Executor and Thrawn the Chimera. I'd far rather serve on a Super Stardestroyer. Also remember your EU. Serving on the Executor was the quick track to promotion and your own ship.

Lord Pounder wrote:Vader had the Executor and Thrawn the Chimera. I'd far rather serve on a Super Stardestroyer. Also remember your EU. Serving on the Executor was the quick track to promotion and your own ship.

Yeah, 'cause your superiors got killed Not sure if I want that to be the way I get promoted, honestly.

And instead of bickering over the tractor beam incident, can someone just out-and-out quote the damn passage from the book so we can see exactly what happened?

Howedar wrote:

FTeik wrote:Right. And the Nazi-soldiers in the concentration-camps were not guilty, since they were only following orders.

That's an asinine comparison and you should be ashamed. A far more reasonable comparison would be a German U-boat crewman losing a Liberty ship on sonar because he was improperly trained.

Why should i be ashamed? Because that would be the logical end of the argument "an officer is responsible for the actions of the men under his command". Are they children or grown adults? Are officers officers or nursemaids?

Already on the first pages of HttE we learn, that the Chimera is crewed by young and inexperienced, but still carefully trained crewmembers.

Standard-training included dealing with such incidents, where Chris Pieterson failed. So either he

-couldn´t do it, because he was incompetent,
or
-couldn´t do it, because he wasn´t properly trained and then he should have talked with his superior about it or the superior or his superior, because in that case he would be the wrong man on the wrong station.

Lord Pounder wrote:Vader had the Executor and Thrawn the Chimera. I'd far rather serve on a Super Stardestroyer. Also remember your EU. Serving on the Executor was the quick track to promotion and your own ship.

Since so many of those are still around (SSDs i mean). Can you say "big, fat target?"

I'd rather serve under Thawn, assuming this is for a bridge officer type of job. If I'm just a random private, I might pick Vader. The number of crew men on the Executor must've been massive, so the odds of survival would still be pretty good and you're on one of the most powerful capital ships the Empire's got.

Rogue 9 wrote:This is kind of a no brainer. Darth Vader kills people who fail whether the failure was their fault or not. Thrawn does not. The chances of dying, therefore, are greatly decreased by serving under Thrawn.

Ditto. Unless I'm some uber-powerful Dark Jedi (say, an Emperor's Hand). Then it really wouldn't matter.

I'll take Vader.

He kills only the true idiots who screw up when they can easily do their job.

Thrawn also serves in the butt ends of the galaxy...rather have the nice job aboard a ship with name recognition.

As mentioned, Thrawn killed him because he didn't take responsibility. Though also I think he was making a point. If you fail, you fail.. but it's the manner in which you fail. If you don't take responsibility or learn from your failure, you're not going to be worth the resources to keep alive anyways.

For instance:

Thrawn himself fails, and fails somewhat frequently. But unlike other commanders, he has no beef with this. He understands that sometimes it's inevitable (damn Rebel luck really).. and will pull out with grace.

Thrawn doesn't kill the spy who was shadowing Luke Skywalker for failing. He demotes him, and Pellaeon views this as a stiff punishment.

When the next tractor ensign fails to capture Luke Skywalker, he owns up to his failure, and tells him what he tried to do instead of just saying, "I wasn't trained properly" and giving up. This makes Thrawn happy that the Ensign was thinking, and did everything he could to try to stop a failure and promoted the man on the spot.

It also sends a clear message to the rest of the crew. Do your best and you will be rewarded.

Then we have to look at Karrde. When H'shi (sp?) asks if she'd have been executed for not living up to his standards, Karrde says no.. she'd just have been relocated. So we have to wonder, whether execution for failing at your duty was common place, at least in the Empire outside of Vader's command.

Here on Earth, if a soldier fails in his duty.. it CAN lead to execution. Such as falling asleep on watch.

Also, Thrawn, as much as some of us may love him.. was still a military commander, warlord. Pieterson failed, and Thrawn normally doesn't kill people for failure. But not only did the failure make a big waste of Imperial effort in time and material, but Pieterson was surly towards Thrawn as well. That'd piss off a warlord greatly.

well said, very well said, so well said in fact that i'm seeing more of how Thrawn's mind works every minute

Angie the Chiss Lord wrote:well said, very well said, so well said in fact that i'm seeing more of how Thrawn's mind works every minute

Also, when the smugglers hit Bilgringi. Pellaeon was ready to tear off the commander's head, and if he was Vader I'm sure would've choked the General to death.. very very slowly.

However, while Thrawn was no doubt mad, he understood WHY it happened. He understood that it was not the Rebels, but the smugglers and that the General was under the impression that any attack on his base would come in the form of the former. Also, while we don't know what happened after Thrawn left the base.. Thrawn, no doubt very disappointed and fuming, thought of the General as good and competent but became complacent and presumably left him in command believing him cured of such complacency for the time being. And we see that after the attack, the security at Bilbringi was excessively tightened.

Once again, Thrawn didn't execute someone despite the loss of a near completed Stardestroyer (a very valuable warship), yet he executed Pieterson, why? Because the General likewise didn't offer any excuses. He accepted the responsibility and failure, and it was readily apparent that he would do anything to make up for it, and evidently he did (though the defenses couldn't stand up against overwhelming Rebel fleets).

A commander knows that in war, shit happens. There are just certain contingencies that are either a gamble or uncertain at best. But it's how those FUBARs are met, that determines the warrior.

For instance, once again to look at Earth. Robert E. Lee, arguably ONE (I'm not saying THE best) of the best military commanders in history knew that he couldn't expect victory all the time either, or that his commanders would perfom like perfect cadets. He expected them to fuck up.. but he also expected them to learn.

bravo very well said i can see you and i might just get along