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Something came to me while I was watching Episodes I and II of Star Wars. For a long time I have been nagged by the fact that the Jedi Council seemed to be foolish. For a long time, I had thought that it was all about Light Side versus Dark Side: and to a point, it is. The thing that just struck me is that, to me, the Jedi of the Old Jedi Council were inadvertently serving the Dark Side of the Force. Remember what Yoda said, “Anger, Fear, Aggression. The Dark Side of it” (Emphasis mine). The Old Jedi Council feared what emotions would do to Jedi. To me, it seemed as if they were slaves to fear. They didn’t want to bring in Anakin at first because they were afraid of what he may potentially do. And while one may look at Anakin and think that they had the right idea, many of the problems that Anakin had may have been because of the restrictions that the Jedi Council placed on him in the first place; the biggest restriction being that he couldn’t love, and in turn marry, Padme. If he had not had to keep his marriage secret, Padme may have been able to better support Anakin when he was having trouble. This fear that the Jedi Council made it so that they had Anakin suppress his emotions, instead of teaching him how to control them. Emotions such as love seem to me to radiate with the Light. I find it hard to believe that the Jedi were opposed to something like love if they served the Light.

Another thing about this fear and preventing the Jedi from having any attachment is that that the Jedi were slowly going towards their extinction. Episode I made it clear that there was a genetic component that allowed the Jedi to have access to the Force. If Jedi could not marry and have kids, how would there be future generations of Jedi? The Sith would not have had to fight it out with the Jedi. They could have eventually waited for the Jedi to kill themselves off. Either that, or recruit those Jedi who wanted to marry to the Sith side and make them either Sith or Dark Jedi. It wouldn’t have taken much either, especially since Jedi took infants from when they were young. And if some rebellious Corellian Jedi came into the picture, all the Sith would have to do is isolate them and neutralize them quietly, something that can’t be too difficult for the Sith to do.

The final thing about fear and the Old Jedi Council is that the Jedi Council seemed to be far weaker than they should have been. This is shown at the Battle of Geonosis in the arena. The Jedi used no offensive techniques against the droid army at all. And they should have. For a long time, it has seemed to me that many Jedi believe that techniques such as Force Lightning and others in that realm are inherently evil. I think that what matters most is in the Jedi’s heart. Jacen in the NJO series used Force Lightning against the Vong. Granted he didn’t kill them, but he used it and he didn’t turn evil. And there would have been no reason to hold back because they were facing a non-living foe. A lot of Jedi died at Geonosis and they didn’t have to. If that force had consisted of Dark Jedi, Sith, or NJO Jedi, the droid army that marched into the arena may very well have been defeated. This, more than anything, seems to show me that fear seems to hold back the Jedi in the Old Jedi order. And what is worse is that the Jedi Council didn’t know that they were letting their fear control them. Things would have been much different if they were not scared to use such power. A gun is a tool. It is not good or evil. It is the person wielding it that is good or evil. I see the Force much like a gun. The Force itself is the tool, the wielder decides if it is used for good or evil. If the Old Jedi order understood this, things may have been different.

What do you guys think of this? Any constructive criticism is welcome and would be most appreciated.

Are you SURE that the control of the Force is genetic? Midi-chlorians exist in all lifeforms, IIRC, and thus they don't need to be passed on through heredity to be present in sufficient amounts to allow control of the Force.

The Skywalker family is the only one seen in the films to have any control of the force (a possibility left open in Leia's case); again, this is not necessarily genetic. Anakin seems to have been "conceived" by the midi-chlorians (or at least it looks like Qui thinks that...), and this gives him his powerful hold of the Force; it's no surprise that his genetics would've been screwed around enough to make plausible the possibility of his children being Force-sensitive.

One has to remember, though, that Anakin is exceptionally powerful; even Yoda, who likely has seen much in his 900 years, believes so. Without this degree of power, it's unlikely that Force-sensitiveness would be passed on to the children of Force-sensitives.

I remember there was a website somewhere-- good one too, maybe even one of DW's, although i'm not sure-- that talked about precisely this (passing the Force onto children thru genes), and pretty much reached what I'm saying.... if someone could come up with it, I'd appreciate it...

I would also bring in Vergere's thoughts from 'Traitor', the one about the Jedi Council's shameful secret...

And that would be?

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:And that would be?

That there is no Dark Side or Light Side, that the wild, unrestraineed Force powers (ie Force Lightning ) is pure Force. It is only how you use thaat power that determines if it is good or evil.

Oh that. Bleh.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Oh that. Bleh.

It's a much more sensible explanation for the Force, as it doesn't require the Force to have some kind of sapience. It's also supported by a few other sources, including Jedi Outcast.

Oh, I don't have a problem with it. I just thought it was something new or that I haven't heard of...

If the force is dependant on genetics to be passed on (something the EU was very eager to follow), those who have it should have an advantage over non-force-sensitives and therefor (pure darwinism) gotten more opportunities to pro-create.

Given the age of the SW-civilisation a large part of the population should be force-sensitive by now, not the only 10,000 Jedi we see in TPM and AOTC (and even if we have 1,000 potential candidate for every single one, who manages it to become a Jedi, the resulting number is still insignificantely small.

Robert Treder wrote: It's also supported by a few other sources, including Jedi Outcast.

The films themselves support it. Luke was supposed to go to the Dark Side by striking down Vader, though he never turned when he killed all of Jabba's skiff guards. Clearly, the motivation/mental state is the factor, not the act/power.

I don't think the council feared the dark side. When we're young our parents tell us not to commit crime and they actively steer us away from a life of crime. Does that give power to crime? No it just teaches you right from wrong.

I do agree that the Vader thing could have been avoided if the council had have allowed him to express his feelings, however we've still a whole movie to go before we see how Anakin falls to the darkside.

FTeik wrote:If the force is dependant on genetics to be passed on (something the EU was very eager to follow), those who have it should have an advantage over non-force-sensitives and therefor (pure darwinism) gotten more opportunities to pro-create.

Given the age of the SW-civilisation a large part of the population should be force-sensitive by now, not the only 10,000 Jedi we see in TPM and AOTC (and even if we have 1,000 potential candidate for every single one, who manages it to become a Jedi, the resulting number is still insignificantely small.

there was one species in the EU that was entirely force-sensitive, iirc, though i forget the name atm. they were blind physically but instead used the Force to aid their senses to get around. so every one of them had some degree of Force sensitivity, and a good number of them became Jedi.

FTeik wrote:If the force is dependant on genetics to be passed on (something the EU was very eager to follow), those who have it should have an advantage over non-force-sensitives and therefor (pure darwinism) gotten more opportunities to pro-create.

Given the age of the SW-civilisation a large part of the population should be force-sensitive by now, not the only 10,000 Jedi we see in TPM and AOTC (and even if we have 1,000 potential candidate for every single one, who manages it to become a Jedi, the resulting number is still insignificantely small.

THe thing is the old Jedi dont usaully breed!! (except on corellia)

Crazedwraith wrote:THe thing is the old Jedi dont usaully breed!! (except on corellia)

Corellia was large enough to count as its own sector (though not unopppsed), so its not surprising if they have as many Jedi as a sector would.

Darth_Zod wrote:

FTeik wrote:If the force is dependant on genetics to be passed on (something the EU was very eager to follow), those who have it should have an advantage over non-force-sensitives and therefor (pure darwinism) gotten more opportunities to pro-create.

Given the age of the SW-civilisation a large part of the population should be force-sensitive by now, not the only 10,000 Jedi we see in TPM and AOTC (and even if we have 1,000 potential candidate for every single one, who manages it to become a Jedi, the resulting number is still insignificantely small.

there was one species in the EU that was entirely force-sensitive, iirc, though i forget the name atm. they were blind physically but instead used the Force to aid their senses to get around. so every one of them had some degree of Force sensitivity, and a good number of them became Jedi.

Are you thinking of the yisallamiri (or something like that) lizards from Thrawn books?

no. they wore these bead-like blindfolds over their eyes and were completely blind physically. still can't recall the name and no sourcebook on hand. however they were definitely humanoid. near human, in fact.

Comosicus wrote: Are you thinking of the yisallamiri (or something like that) lizards from Thrawn books?

Ysalamari are furry salamanders. They are not intelligent nor Force sensitive. But they are preyed upon by vornskr that are Force sensitive and hunt with aid from it. Thus they have developed a natural defence system that suppres the Force in their immediate area.

Perhaps the ability to use the force is the next stage in Sentience evolution in the Star Wars galaxy?

And there are actually LOTS of force traditions in the Star Wars galaxy (the Sorcerors of Tund come to mind), just they keep a low profile.

Otherwise, the Jedi pay a visit.

if using the Force were a step up in evolution you'd think more people would be capable of using it by the NR era since there have been Force users in the SW galaxy for thousands of years.

TrekWarsie wrote:Something came to me while I was watching Episodes I and II of Star Wars. For a long time I have been nagged by the fact that the Jedi Council seemed to be foolish. For a long time, I had thought that it was all about Light Side versus Dark Side: and to a point, it is. The thing that just struck me is that, to me, the Jedi of the Old Jedi Council were inadvertently serving the Dark Side of the Force. Remember what Yoda said, “Anger, Fear, Aggression. The Dark Side of it” (Emphasis mine). The Old Jedi Council feared what emotions would do to Jedi. To me, it seemed as if they were slaves to fear. They didn’t want to bring in Anakin at first because they were afraid of what he may potentially do. And while one may look at Anakin and think that they had the right idea, many of the problems that Anakin had may have been because of the restrictions that the Jedi Council placed on him in the first place; the biggest restriction being that he couldn’t love, and in turn marry, Padme. If he had not had to keep his marriage secret, Padme may have been able to better support Anakin when he was having trouble. This fear that the Jedi Council made it so that they had Anakin suppress his emotions, instead of teaching him how to control them. Emotions such as love seem to me to radiate with the Light. I find it hard to believe that the Jedi were opposed to something like love if they served the Light.

The question isn't so much the Jedi being opposed to love, as the Jedi were opposed to passion. We do know that early incarnations of the Jedi allowed love and marriage to occur, and the current era, exemplified by Yoda was amongst the most conservative of the various orders. If the comics are to be believed, the mindset behind this order was to prevent any further Jedi from falling to the Sith, or the Dark side, and this conservative measure would find its hallmark in Anakin.

Another thing about this fear and preventing the Jedi from having any attachment is that that the Jedi were slowly going towards their extinction. Episode I made it clear that there was a genetic component that allowed the Jedi to have access to the Force. If Jedi could not marry and have kids, how would there be future generations of Jedi? The Sith would not have had to fight it out with the Jedi. They could have eventually waited for the Jedi to kill themselves off. Either that, or recruit those Jedi who wanted to marry to the Sith side and make them either Sith or Dark Jedi. It wouldn’t have taken much either, especially since Jedi took infants from when they were young. And if some rebellious Corellian Jedi came into the picture, all the Sith would have to do is isolate them and neutralize them quietly, something that can’t be too difficult for the Sith to do.

Episode I made it clear that there wasn't any genetic component of the Jedi at all. No marriages amongst Jedi, yet there were still Force-users. Shimi Skywalker was not Force Sensitive.

The final thing about fear and the Old Jedi Council is that the Jedi Council seemed to be far weaker than they should have been. This is shown at the Battle of Geonosis in the arena. The Jedi used no offensive techniques against the droid army at all. And they should have. For a long time, it has seemed to me that many Jedi believe that techniques such as Force Lightning and others in that realm are inherently evil. I think that what matters most is in the Jedi’s heart. Jacen in the NJO series used Force Lightning against the Vong. Granted he didn’t kill them, but he used it and he didn’t turn evil. And there would have been no reason to hold back because they were facing a non-living foe. A lot of Jedi died at Geonosis and they didn’t have to. If that force had consisted of Dark Jedi, Sith, or NJO Jedi, the droid army that marched into the arena may very well have been defeated. This, more than anything, seems to show me that fear seems to hold back the Jedi in the Old Jedi order. And what is worse is that the Jedi Council didn’t know that they were letting their fear control them. Things would have been much different if they were not scared to use such power. A gun is a tool. It is not good or evil. It is the person wielding it that is good or evil. I see the Force much like a gun. The Force itself is the tool, the wielder decides if it is used for good or evil. If the Old Jedi order understood this, things may have been different.

1. The Jedi did go on the offensive against the droid army. This is the only possible explaination to explain the disparity between the Jedi converging on the arena, and later scenes of Jedi duking it out on the stand. If one was talking about the use of Force powers, we seldom see force powers during a sabre duel.

2. Force Lightning, generated via pure hatred(BTM) would suggest a dark side element.

3. If the droid army had marched up against competent jedi who knew the value of team-work in numbers larger than 2, the chances are the Jedi would had escaped the arena.

I was wondering if Force could be a form of a biological infection, since we know that one's strenght in the force is gauged on the counts of specific microorganisms in one's system.

Since the SW civilization is so old, the lack of Force users would be due to the fact that most beings in the galaxy had build up a resistant to the infection.

Shim being located in a backwater system may not have had a natural immunity to the disease, and passed that lack of immunity to anakin, explaining his high count.