Basic and English

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-03-10 08:13pm

If in Star Wars Basic is "dubbed" with English are the names replaced as well? Most names can easily be considered Basic names because they're original and alien sounding. Han Solo, Danni Quee, Obi-Wan Kenobi etc. Even some of the more English sounding names like "Ben" are probably a coincidence. Three letters, one sylable, two galaxies. The odds are good that the Empire will make "Ben" a common name. The same should apply to Luke, right? Yeah, only the "Skywalker" part. How is that not an English name? Did they dub over what ammounts to the Basic equivalent of "sky" and "walker"? If the names are the same this to me is the clearest signal that there is a direct link between Basic and English. That and the fact that written Basic is merely an English code.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2004-03-10 08:22pm

I don't really think there is a Basic, unlike Klingon, and if there's is, it's probably more recent than the movies, so the point is pretty nonvalid.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-03-10 08:25pm

There has to be Basic. How can a 25,000 year old civilization that existed "long ago" have English as its main language? Aside from the fraud that is the Death Star's tractor beam control terminal, Basic has a unique written form that is seen in RotJ.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-03-10 08:29pm

Or since everyone is speeking basic(except our noted alien friends) There is no need for such games. They speak basic ans we understand it as if we spoke basic simple as that. Subject bases names like Skywalker are fairly commin in languages my own last name Bradbury referrs to Brad's(Brad) Town or place(bury) in welsh. In english I still use the Bradbury rather than translating it. This does pose us small problems but it is hardly terribly troubling since not translating Skywalker and we do not see the gest of the name. where the transl;ation is not important, Chewbacca, for example, it is not done for us.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-03-10 08:36pm

Isolder74 wrote:<snip>

That's a good theory, but that makes the Death Star an even bigger problem. If we're just fluent in Basic, why don't we always see it as English? Shouldn't it show up as English in RotJ as well?

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-03-10 08:40pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:<snip>
That's a good theory, but that makes the Death Star an even bigger problem. If we're just fluent in Basic, why don't we always see it as English? Shouldn't it show up as English in RotJ as well?

The only english we really see in on the control panel Obi-Wan uses to shut down the Tractor beam where the studio felt we needed to know what Obi was doing. I think it was unessisary(We knew his mission already) but you know how those things can go.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-03-11 03:43am

Lazy Raptor wrote:There has to be Basic. How can a 25,000 year old civilization that existed "long ago" have English as its main language? Aside from the fraud that is the Death Star's tractor beam control terminal, Basic has a unique written form that is seen in RotJ.

Klingon has been developed into a fully functional language unlike Basic which has been developed as a real language by Lucas film.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-11 03:47am

evilcat4000 wrote:Klingon has been developed into a fully functional language unlike Basic which has been developed as a real language by Lucas film.

What?

Seriously, that made no damn sense.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-03-11 09:24am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:Klingon has been developed into a fully functional language unlike Basic which has been developed as a real language by Lucas film.
What?

Seriously, that made no damn sense.

Yes I agree ... perhaps if evilcat would read his posts before pressing 'submit' it would have, as it is the sentence is just plain wrong.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-11 09:49am

Actually, I'd prefer if he'd actually read threads before posting in them, that way we'd get less babble version stuff that's either already been said or is bleeding obvious.

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2004-03-11 10:38am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Actually, I'd prefer if he'd actually read threads before posting in them, that way we'd get less babble version stuff that's either already been said or is bleeding obvious.

At least he's trying to add to the topic, all I see you do is snipe, snipe, snipe.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-03-11 11:06am

Keep in mind all the "Basic" written language is just highly stylized English characters. It's not like it's alien.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-11 11:12am

No it isn't. Saxton tried using the WEG Aurebesh to translate one of the ROTJ screens, and ended up with total gibberish.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-03-11 11:30am

...which means, surprise! WEG didn't do its homework and was lazy.

invader_skutch · Post by **invader_skutch** » 2004-03-11 12:42pm

I've given this some thought...all of the screens (like in the impstars, the monitors in AOTC, the death star, Luke's X-Wing) were in "strange pointy alien" font, which is pretty much sci-fi standard (Klingon, Irken, anything that you want to look alien must be all...pointy), yet they still speak English. In the books they talk about basic, so it must be an actual language that sounds a lot like english but isn't written the same. I mean, if the movies were "dubbed" then why would the character's lips be in sync with the sound of their voice? It's a pretty big coincidence, but really that's what it must be: Basic and English are extremely similar, but the little pictures that we draw to represent sounds must be different. If that's what you see, that must be how it is, right?

I dunno, this is my first post...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-11 02:58pm

It's all about diegesis (if you don't know what that means, Google it).

It's the same reason everyone in LotR speaks English: because like Westron, Basic is being autotranslated.

invader_skutch · Post by **invader_skutch** » 2004-03-11 06:18pm

Yeah, but we look at the technology and just assume that it happens that way based on the films only, why must we apply different standards to language? We should just take the film at face value: Basic is spoken exactly the same as English, there is no difference between the two when it's spoken. Although the chances of this happening is astronomical, so is the chance that a civilization such as the empire would be comprised mainly of humans on a different galaxy "long, long ago." There is no autotranslation, it merely is spoken exactly like english.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2004-03-11 06:24pm

Maybe Basic is like that, since some races understand but can't speak Basic, so they just kinda had to "impose" Basic as the standard language. But since any race with some sort of appendage can write, an alphabet could've been developed that incorporated letters and appearances of many languages to accomodate the tastes of all involved.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-03-11 06:43pm

No, Basic is obviously autotranslated into English for our benefit, just like the console in ANH.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-03-11 06:51pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:No, Basic is obviously autotranslated into English for our benefit, just like the console in ANH.

But if it were dubbed, would not their lips still be moving as though they were speaking Basic?

Besides, you aren't suspending disbelief. If we are to suspend disbelief, then there is no "us" to be benefitted. We don't exist "in-universe". We must treat it as what we are seeing and hearing as exactly what is happening. Therefore they are talking in English, because that is exactly what we are hearing and what we are seeing. We hear English words, and not just in English, but in colloquial English (IE it doesn't sound like it came through a translator) and we see their lips and throat matching the sound. Either Basic == English, or they aren't speaking Basic. As long as we are suspending disbelief, that is.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-11 06:57pm

There is a difference between autotranslation and dubbing.

Or do you also assume that for LOTR, Westron sounds exactly like English because that's what it sounds like in the books and films?

I expect this kind of stuff from Space Cadet, but Gil, I'm surprised, frankly. Diegesis is not a difficult concept.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2004-03-11 07:03pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:There is a difference between autotranslation and dubbing.

Or do you also assume that for LOTR, Westron sounds exactly like English because that's what it sounds like in the books and films?

I expect this kind of stuff from Space Cadet, but Gil, I'm surprised, frankly. Diegesis is not a difficult concept.

Oi, come'on! It sounds like English, so maybe it really does sound like English. It's hardly impossible.

Besides, shockwaves are spherical, not planar, and yet we've decided that it's Alderran's hypermatter reactor that caused the planar explosion, even though it's really probably the moviemakers trying to make it look cool.

But anyway, if it is autotranslation, then that's fine.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2004-03-11 07:07pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Besides, you aren't suspending disbelief. If we are to suspend disbelief, then there is no "us" to be benefitted. We don't exist "in-universe". We must treat it as what we are seeing and hearing as exactly what is happening. Therefore they are talking in English, because that is exactly what we are hearing and what we are seeing. We hear English words, and not just in English, but in colloquial English (IE it doesn't sound like it came through a translator) and we see their lips and throat matching the sound. Either Basic == English, or they aren't speaking Basic. As long as we are suspending disbelief, that is.

No, under SoD, we treat the movies as historical documents. The unnamed editors have chosen to add wipes, fades, transistions, sounds in space, and English/French/German etc. translations for our benefit.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-03-11 07:34pm

Hamilton, you're not making sense.

If you're treating SW as real, we're still obviously not in the universe during the events taking place.

It is documentary footage. You don't pretend you're actually there, or magically watching from hyperspace yourself--where are the smells? Why is there music?

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-03-11 07:55pm

Shinova wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:There is a difference between autotranslation and dubbing.

Or do you also assume that for LOTR, Westron sounds exactly like English because that's what it sounds like in the books and films?

I expect this kind of stuff from Space Cadet, but Gil, I'm surprised, frankly. Diegesis is not a difficult concept.
Oi, come'on! It sounds like English, so maybe it really does sound like English. It's hardly impossible.

And strangely enough, in Japan, Basic sounds like Japanese, in Germany, it sounds like German...