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It has been a nagging question for me that I assume can be answered here. Is there anything said about the lack of shields for the original TIEs prior to WEG books, such as in the novelization of ANH or the radio drama?

I think there's a throwaway line in the EpIV novelization about how the Empire didn't need to shield its TIEs because it had so many.

Makes you want to run out and become a TIE pilot! I always thought it odd that the Empire didn't put shields on TIEs. It's not like it couldn't afford too. I also wanted to check to make sure it wasn't a brainbug on WEG's part that because it was mentioned in the movie that X-wings had shields that TIEs didn't.

Deathstalker wrote:Makes you want to run out and become a TIE pilot! I always thought it odd that the Empire didn't put shields on TIEs. It's not like it couldn't afford too.

It is rather odd but not with out precedent. And indeed since Lucas liked the WW2 aspects of the dogfights, it's reasonable for the TIE to be the Zero to the X-Wing's Hellcat.

The movie depicts them as shielded. The EU is wrong.

Not all TIEs are necessarily shielded.

The TIE Interceptors, for one example, in ROTJ were all unshielded.

More accurately, the TIE Interceptors in ROTJ displayed no evidence of having shields; i.e. do we have any reason to believe the TIEs being blasted apart in the Battle of Yavin by X-Wings had shields? Not really.

Also the Ties in the Verses Falcon scene might not have been the Standerd model. The ties in the battle were not sheilded.

It's a contradiction is some cases. But there are scenes in the movies which clearly show shields in operation, and other scenes seem to be ambiguous on the issue.

Isolder74 wrote:Also the Ties in the Verses Falcon scene might not have been the Standerd model. The ties in the battle were not sheilded.

There were no changes in the physical characteristics.

Furthermore, the "sparks" seen in the collision between Black 2(or was it 3) and Vader may had been a shield interaction.

Crown wrote:It's a contradiction is some cases. But there are scenes in the movies which clearly show shields in operation, and other scenes seem to be ambiguous on the issue.

Which scenes, specifically?

PainRack wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:Also the Ties in the Verses Falcon scene might not have been the Standerd model. The ties in the battle were not sheilded.

There were no changes in the physical characteristics.

Furthermore, the "sparks" seen in the collision between Black 2(or was it 3) and Vader may had been a shield interaction.

Vader's TIE ahs shields meaning it could be a matter/shield interaction instead of a sheild/sheild.

Lord Sander wrote:Which scenes, specifically?

During the Falcon's escape from the Death Star. Han (Luke?) shoots at an approaching TIE Fighter, but all the laser seem to just miss above/below the wing struts. A closer examination of the scene shows the laser interacting with the shields, though the actually shield glows happen so quickly it helps if its in slow-mo.

PainRack wrote:There were no changes in the physical characteristics.

Which says nothing about shields. We know rather complex equipment can be installed without major hull changes; the Delta-7 Aethersprites were to have internal hyperdrives mounted, but by AOTC they hadn't gotten around to it.

PainRack wrote:Furthermore, the "sparks" seen in the collision between Black 2(or was it 3) and Vader may had been a shield interaction.

So? We know that the TIE Advanced X1 has shields.

It appears that the Sentry TIEs had shields, but the TIEs at the Battle of Yavin did not.

Perhaps they are like the Droidekas from the prequel trilogy. Some have shields, some dont.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I think there's a throwaway line in the EpIV novelization about how the Empire didn't need to shield its TIEs because it had so many.

As I recall that's mostly an EU-derived reference. The novelization to mym memory makes no referencec one way or another.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Which says nothing about shields. We know rather complex equipment can be installed without major hull changes; the Delta-7 Aethersprites were to have internal hyperdrives mounted, but by AOTC they hadn't gotten around to it.

I don't recall the AOTC ICS schematics indicating that the Aethersprite has any sort of interior space that could have been dedicated to hyperdrive at all - not without removing some other component. (whcih does in fact mean that they probably had to make hull modifications of some kind to accomodate some sort of hyperdrive.)

PainRack wrote: So? We know that the TIE Advanced X1 has shields.

We also know even glancing impacts on shields can inflict damage on unshielded vessels (both in sceeondary canon and eu - the example that occurs OTOH most notably is from the first Rogue Squadron novel) I believe what Painrack is implying is that if Black 2 and 3 weren't shielded, they would have been damaged just by even a small impact with Vader's ship.

Vympel wrote:More accurately, the TIE Interceptors in ROTJ displayed no evidence of having shields; i.e. do we have any reason to believe the TIEs being blasted apart in the Battle of Yavin by X-Wings had shields? Not really.

There may be indirect evidence of TIE/I shields.. one of the TIEs fired on by rebel fighters (we see it destroyed through the cockpit I believe) - the entire TIE glows bright white before being destroyed - this would seem to imply some sort of "distribution" of energy... but it may also be superconducting armor.. or maybe the shot was strong enough to vaporize the entire fighter (I am not sure how likely the last one is, though...)

Connor MacLeod wrote:I don't recall the AOTC ICS schematics indicating that the Aethersprite has any sort of interior space that could have been dedicated to hyperdrive at all - not without removing some other component. (whcih does in fact mean that they probably had to make hull modifications of some kind to accomodate some sort of hyperdrive.)

Holonet News stated that the Hyperdrive-equipped Aethersprites would be shipped shortly. We know from comics later in the Clone Wars that the Delta-7s are structurally identical throughout the wars.

That was just a random example though. How about the TIE Interceptors? They had ten guns and obviously had the generator room for that many weapons; Thrawn added shields in what appeared to be a minor refit.

I don't think we should postulate shields without direct evidence thereof; especially when EU argues that Interceptors were unshielded.

Connor MacLeod wrote:We also know even glancing impacts on shields can inflict damage on unshielded vessels (both in sceeondary canon and eu - the example that occurs OTOH most notably is from the first Rogue Squadron novel) I believe what Painrack is implying is that if Black 2 and 3 weren't shielded, they would have been damaged just by even a small impact with Vader's ship.

And it wasn't? They visibly clipped with sparks I believe.

Connor MacLeod wrote:There may be indirect evidence of TIE/I shields.. one of the TIEs fired on by rebel fighters (we see it destroyed through the cockpit I believe) - the entire TIE glows bright white before being destroyed - this would seem to imply some sort of "distribution" of energy... but it may also be superconducting armor.. or maybe the shot was strong enough to vaporize the entire fighter (I am not sure how likely the last one is, though...)

This may be a good time to ask what's happening when a TIE gets destroyed in general. I don't think we've covered that topic.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Which says nothing about shields. We know rather complex equipment can be installed without major hull changes; the Delta-7 Aethersprites were to have internal hyperdrives mounted, but by AOTC they hadn't gotten around to it.

Connor addressed this, but more importantly, its impossible to say that the TIEs were different.

We cannot say that the TIEs in the Falcon chase scene, was different from those in the Death Star scene, especially when one remembers both of them came from the same space station. Furthermore, according to one aspect of EU at least, Black Squadron was Vader personal squadron on board the Death Star(as opposed to Lieutant Tanbris hastily assigning together a force to escort Vader out to battle). It will stretch credubility that a Sentry TIE(or was it Vanguard) had shields, but Vader squadron did not had even basic navigational shields.

So? We know that the TIE Advanced X1 has shields.

Connor got a bit of what I was trying to say.

if Black 2 had clipped with Vader TIE with sufficient velocity to spark, especially when one considers the effects shields had on asteroids in TESB, the TIE wing should had been partially sheared off.

The sparks that occured instead could, suggest that the nav shields on Black 2 interacted with Vader shields instead.

Vympel wrote:This may be a good time to ask what's happening when a TIE gets destroyed in general. I don't think we've covered that topic.

They explode differently in ANH and TESB than ROTJ (which is probably the result of better visual effects in the real world). Some of the TIEs that are destroyed at Endor have a greenish tint to their fireballs. In the other movies, they're the standard orangish color. Might have something to do with their power sources (radioactive gas under high pressure) being hit.

Which I suppose might be able to be supported by the movie. During the Death Star escape in ANH, three of the fighters explode in a lackluster fashion, but the final one erupts into an enormous fireball, the likes of which are not found in the rest of the film, IIRC.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Holonet News stated that the Hyperdrive-equipped Aethersprites would be shipped shortly. We know from comics later in the Clone Wars that the Delta-7s are structurally identical throughout the wars.

Not entirely. Anakin had his own custom variant.. so we know structurally modified Aethersprites existed (I don't ever actually recall seeing anything that indicates just how plentiful the hyperdrive-equipped ones were. To my knowledge the only person who actually had one was Adi Gallia)

In any case, how do you explain the simple fact that the schematics in the AOTC ICS in no way allow for the addition of a hyperdrive without modifying the hull in some fashion (like Anakin's fighter.)

That was just a random example though. How about the TIE Interceptors? They had ten guns and obviously had the generator room for that many weapons; Thrawn added shields in what appeared to be a minor refit.

Laser cannons aren't quite as massive as a shield generator (or a hyperdrive) for that matter, are they?

What about Obi-Wan's comments in ANH? He made it clear that the TIE they pursued to the Death Star was a "short range" fighter without hyperdrive capability. This sort of rules out the possibility that you could mount a hyperdrive in a TIE without having to make structural modifications.

(in any case, shielding and hyperdrives are two different systems - what exactly makes you think the ability to add one means that adding the other would not require any sort of modification?) I might remidn you we have no evidence in the EU that the "modified" vehicles are visually identical to the non-modified ones.

I don't think we should postulate shields without direct evidence thereof; especially when EU argues that Interceptors were unshielded.

Some are unshielded, some aren't (same with other TIEs.) What exactly is wrong with this?

And it wasn't? They visibly clipped with sparks I believe.

Yes, and there was no visible damage to the panels (or anywhere else for that matter) from the collision. You think we wouldn't see something (especially with other examples to draw on.)[/img]

Connor MacLeod wrote:Yes, and there was no visible damage to the panels (or anywhere else for that matter) from the collision. You think we wouldn't see something (especially with other examples to draw on.)

Um...if you're talking about visible damage on Vader's TIE, then yes there was: Vader's TIE spins away from SWTC.

I'm trying to locate an image of the model kit with the damaged fin. I know I've seen it before.

PainRack wrote:Connor addressed this, but more importantly, its impossible to say that the TIEs were different.

Firstly, Connor did not; he merely stated he didn't see where they fit. Well perhaps there was a major relocation and miniaturization of some components. The HNN info stands. We've seen cases of rather miniaturized, short-range hyperdrives before; observe the OT ICS X-Wing's hyperdrive core--it is not very large--consider the volume of the Probot delivery shell remaining after the ion engine, a droid brain, at least some rudimentary sensors, etc. left for a hyperdrive.

Furthermore, the TIEs don't have to be different. From the countless EU sources, we know that some TIEs must be shieldless (unless you claim the Falcon chase seen invalidates every TIE, everywhere, that the EU said was unshielded), and surprise! they're structurally identical to the Falcon chase TIEs.

Again, the TIE Interceptor powers apparently up-to-10 guns from its reactor, in the standard TIE ball hull. Again, the selfsame Interceptors were easily equipped with shield generators by Thrawn.

If the sentry TIEs with shields have room for shield generators, than this hardly dismisses the possibility of shieldless TIEs with the same hull volume; perhaps performance in shieldless TIEs isn't readily apparent. Perhaps something like an increase in range and combat longevity.

I don't see how you can take the TIE chase of the Falcon scene and override every single EU source and say that those TIEs couldn't be shieldless. I find that rather extreme.

PainRack wrote:We cannot say that the TIEs in the Falcon chase scene, was different from those in the Death Star scene, especially when one remembers both of them came from the same space station.

Why? How many different models of F-15 are there? Can you distinguish between a F-15C and F-15E Strike Eagle during flybys, casually?

PainRack wrote:Furthermore, according to one aspect of EU at least, Black Squadron was Vader personal squadron on board the Death Star(as opposed to Lieutant Tanbris hastily assigning together a force to escort Vader out to battle). It will stretch credubility that a Sentry TIE(or was it Vanguard) had shields, but Vader squadron did not had even basic navigational shields.

What do basic navigational shields have to do with anything? I'm sure even the most rudimentary escape pods and TIEs have some sort of screen against micrometeorite and flashbacks, etc.

Anyway, we know from battle to battle the X-Wings have shields; official data tells us so. The EU says TIEs do not have shields; we've discovered a particular case where they do, in fact, possess shields.

Official is canonical insofar that it does not undermine or contradict George Lucas' saga of screenplays and films. You have proved that the sentry TIEs had shields; prove that Black Squadron did.

This point about them being an elite squadron is also a red herring; you do realize the 181st Fighter Group, the Empire's Rogue Squadron, commanded by General and Baron of the Empire Soontir Fel, flew unshielded basic TIE Interceptors, right? Nothing about being an elite squadron necessitates shields.

PainRack wrote:if Black 2 had clipped with Vader TIE with sufficient velocity to spark, especially when one considers the effects shields had on asteroids in TESB, the TIE wing should had been partially sheared off.

Why don't you put up the evidence? And need I remind you of the TIE which is clipped and careens out of control, sparking and arcing with electrical discharges? That one got nicked hard.

PainRack wrote:The sparks that occured instead could, suggest that the nav shields on Black 2 interacted with Vader shields instead.

Any examples or evidence that shield-to-shield interactions cause this? Oh wait, I see. Sparks are caused by shield-to-shield interactions because Black 2 had shields and sparked on impact with Vader's shielded TIE. Therefore, since Black 2 sparked on impact with Vader's shielded TIE, it had shields.

I don't know why I didn't think of that earlier.