What Exactly Was The Old Republic?

[PrinceofLowLight]

Padme mentions in Episode 2 that she was asked to serve as Senator. That doesn't sound like a democratic government to me, if the Republic is the final federal authority. We also know that planets have their own rulers.

But they also preach on about democracy. It seems like the Republic is less like an actually US-style Federal Republic and more of a UN-type body, with representatives who set policy that are appointed to their job rather than elected. That further explains why people are so surprised to see the Republic with its own army: The independant nations within the government had their own military that basically took care of things. This also explains why different planets used different equipments. The Naboo Fighters were Naboo Fighters, not Republic Fighters.

But everyone talks about the Republic as if it were a unified government. They used the same currency. A single language was spoken across the Republic. The things that were passed in the Senate seemed to be legally binding, unlike the UN. The Republic collected its own taxes.

But then where's the democracy? Appointed senators sit and make policy.

/ramble /on sleep.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Senators are appointed by the worlds they represent by whatever method they choose. No doubt some worlds have a senator with an inherited position, others elect in general elections, and some are appointed by the planetary government.

Padme served a term as elected queen, and was likely chosen to replace Palpatine by her world in part thanks to her heroism during the Trade Federation Blockade.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I always assumed they she just meant run for Senator and had such high popularity no one else ran against her.

[Howedar]

Or won easily. That was my assumption.

[PainRack]

Padme mentions in Episode 2 that she was asked to serve as Senator. That doesn't sound like a democratic government to me, if the Republic is the final federal authority. We also know that planets have their own rulers.

That's easy to answer. She was asked by the rulers of the sector to be their appointed Senator. If there was an election, it became a walkover or won handily.

But they also preach on about democracy. It seems like the Republic is less like an actually US-style Federal Republic and more of a UN-type body, with representatives who set policy that are appointed to their job rather than elected. That further explains why people are so surprised to see the Republic with its own army: The independant nations within the government had their own military that basically took care of things. This also explains why different planets used different equipments. The Naboo Fighters were Naboo Fighters, not Republic Fighters.

The Republic had its own paramilitary arm, under the Justice and there was no doubt a naval corps, with Z-95 headhunters.

But everyone talks about the Republic as if it were a unified government. They used the same currency. A single language was spoken across the Republic. The things that were passed in the Senate seemed to be legally binding, unlike the UN. The Republic collected its own taxes.

But then where's the democracy? Appointed senators sit and make policy.

/ramble /on sleep.

What does democracy has anything to do with a unified government?

[PrinceofLowLight]

/ramble /on sleep.

What does democracy has anything to do with a unified government?[/quote]

"Blah blah blah democracry, blah blah blah believe in it" They always harp on it and was wondering if it was actually there.

[dworkin]

Padme believes in democracy and thought it was the hottest thing till she got a jedi 'guardian'. She comes from a democracy, albiet a rather strange one in that they call the premier 'Queen/King'.

As I see it:
The Republic is a not so loose association of member worlds. They have a ruling body that governs a whole heap of 'common law' but each member is still a soveriegn entity in it's own right. It's more like the EU than the UN.

[PainRack]

"Blah blah blah democracry, blah blah blah believe in it" They always harp on it and was wondering if it was actually there.

The Queen was "elected", Chancellor Palpatine was elected, Senators were presumably elected, suits the name of democracy.

There is a reason why the Galactic Republic is called a Republic you know.

[phongn]

There is a reason why the Galactic Republic is called a Republic you know.

Well, no, just because it has Republic in its name doesn't mean it'll be democratic. For example: People's Republic of China, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Socialist Republic of Vietnam, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, etc.

[Darth Wong]

Padme believes in democracy and thought it was the hottest thing till she got a jedi 'guardian'. She comes from a democracy, albiet a rather strange one in that they call the premier 'Queen/King'.

I always interpreted that to mean that elected leaders had to come from a nobility upperclass, hence the odd fusion of elections and monarchistic titles (not to mention the fact that a teenager won; no fair and open election would result in people voting for a teenager as leader, no matter how cute she is).

[Lagmonster]

I always interpreted that to mean that elected leaders had to come from a nobility upperclass, hence the odd fusion of elections and monarchistic titles (not to mention the fact that a teenager won; no fair and open election would result in people voting for a teenager as leader, no matter how cute she is).

It's also possible that, like ancient Greece, the vote is limited to specific castes or groups or even feudal lords (like the Hutts) who control specific land holdings or wealth.

Something that I was thinking of about Padme was that given the interests of corporations and feudal groups that have been demonstrated in the Star Wars galaxy that she might have been voted in simply because she was too inexperienced to do anything but maintain the status quo and support the rich landowners who put her in power and pay for her fancy gowns. The same thing happened in Egypt with Pharaohs put on the throne as kids and manipulated by the generals and priesthood (most notably the boy-king Tutankhamen). In other words to set up a system that works, invest the power to change that system in people unwilling to make real changes, and then keep that type of person in power.

[Stormbringer]

Padme believes in democracy and thought it was the hottest thing till she got a jedi 'guardian'. She comes from a democracy, albiet a rather strange one in that they call the premier 'Queen/King'.

I always interpreted that to mean that elected leaders had to come from a nobility upperclass, hence the odd fusion of elections and monarchistic titles (not to mention the fact that a teenager won; no fair and open election would result in people voting for a teenager as leader, no matter how cute she is).

The thing is, it's more than just titles, it's also the actual power to go with it. Queen Amidala seems to be a genuine queen, in name as well as authority. That doesn't fit well with the notion that she's subject to term limits and apparently regular election to the position.

It basically is a system that takes the two worst aspects of democracy and monarchy. I don't know of a single politcal body that ever used such an ungainly combination of systems.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Holy Roman Emperor was an elected monarch; the Pontiff is also an elected while somewhat royal official.

The concept is not without precedent.

However, the concept is not as foriegn as it might seem: the Naboo elect very young children to the monarchy; the real power probably exists with career bureaucrats and her advisors, which are probably a nigh-permanent body of professional statesmen.

The actually distribution of power on Naboo is probably more oligarchial than anything else. I don't see the power of the advisors and bureaucrats being open to everyone. Hell, I can't really imagine that just anyone can run for the monarchy either.

[Stormbringer]

The Holy Roman Emperor was an elected monarch; the Pontiff is also an elected while somewhat royal official.

The concept is not without precedent.

It's not the concept of an elected monarch, but of any elected monarch that is eventually replaced as we would a president. That is, so far as I know, with out precedent.

However, the concept is not as foriegn as it might seem: the Naboo elect very young children to the monarchy; the real power probably exists with career bureaucrats and her advisors, which are probably a nigh-permanent body of professional statesmen.

It's probably the case that the Queen or King as a practical matter has to listen to their advisors and the paperpushers. But it seems that as setup, the current monarch is more or less a rarely checked supreme executive and legislative head.

The actually distribution of power on Naboo is probably more oligarchial than anything else. I don't see the power of the advisors and bureaucrats being open to everyone. Hell, I can't really imagine that just anyone can run for the monarchy either.

Well, given that the monarch is seemingly only picked from an already existing aristocracy the pool is probably rather limited. And so for that matter might be the voters.

But it could easily be the other way.

[PainRack]

There is a reason why the Galactic Republic is called a Republic you know.

Well, no, just because it has Republic in its name doesn't mean it'll be democratic. For example: People's Republic of China, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Socialist Republic of Vietnam, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, etc.

Actually, I was more referring to the fact that the Senate worked the way it did, as opposed to the way Athens did.

The thing is, it's more than just titles, it's also the actual power to go with it. Queen Amidala seems to be a genuine queen, in name as well as authority. That doesn't fit well with the notion that she's subject to term limits and apparently regular election to the position.

It basically is a system that takes the two worst aspects of democracy and monarchy. I don't know of a single politcal body that ever used such an ungainly combination of systems.

There are....... possibilities. For example, in the Malayan pennisula, the Sultan had to be elected by the various nobility and could also be "impeached" in a vote of no confidence. I can't remember whether it was Siamese or kedah though.

A further evolution would be a regular change of rules, so as to prevent consolidation of authority, and more importantly, riches in one person hands. Malaysia practises a rotating consitutional monarchy, although of course, the king doesn't have any real executive powers, as Padme had.

[Tychu]

I belive the Old Republic is set up as a Confederate Republic for lack of a better word (i forgot it) its more like the early United States under the Articles of Confederation. It seems that the planets in the Old Republic have the same or more power than the central government. Remember the planets senators are the ones who choose the Supreme Chancelor who is more like a Prime Minister than a President and the Supreme Chancelor cannot declare war or conjure up an army without the Senators and Planets consent. After the Sepertist movment and the Senators GIVING! their powers to the supreme chancelor, Palpatine was able to do what ever he wanted.

[Howedar]

In the cut AOTC scene where we see Amidala's parents, they certainly didn't seem like any sort of aristocrats.

I forget, how do we rate cut scenes?

[PainRack]

In the cut AOTC scene where we see Amidala's parents, they certainly didn't seem like any sort of aristocrats.

I forget, how do we rate cut scenes?

That reminded me.
The cut scenes seem to have made it clear that choosing a career in politics was made in school, with electives and through-stream for those who wish to do so.

Of course, this doesn't detract from the possibility that Amidala parents were aristocrats. Modern day nobility still work and go to school, serve in the military etc etc etc.

[Howedar]

I was thinking just based on their house. It seemed very middle class. In particular there were no servants to be seen; rather, IIRC Padme's mother served them some food.

[PainRack]

I was thinking just based on their house. It seemed very middle class. In particular there were no servants to be seen; rather, IIRC Padme's mother served them some food.

So, the alternate possibility would appear to be some sort of streaming in school.......................


Not a pleasant thought. I have too much of that kinda crap in real life as it is.

[Knife]

I'll agree with Tychu. The overall Republic seems to be a Confederacy in that each individual State has sovereignty and immence power, with a centralized yet underpowered galactic council to equalize galactic affairs.

On the idinvidual systems, I would theorize that each planet or sector or what ever, can have any type of local goverment they choose but with some sort of guidlines from the Galactic Senate. Some thing akin to public elections.

That would account for some of the titles some of the planetary leaders have. Vicerory and Queen, ect..... These systems might have continued with their monarchies slightly modified to allow them to participate in the Republic.

[Mange]

Padme believes in democracy and thought it was the hottest thing till she got a jedi 'guardian'. She comes from a democracy, albiet a rather strange one in that they call the premier 'Queen/King'.

I always interpreted that to mean that elected leaders had to come from a nobility upperclass, hence the odd fusion of elections and monarchistic titles (not to mention the fact that a teenager won; no fair and open election would result in people voting for a teenager as leader, no matter how cute she is).

Actually, this is close to how the kings in Sweden was elected by the Swedish nobility before Gustav Vasa transformed the Swedish state into what could be a called an autocratic system (around 1522) and decided that the office of the king would be inheritable, starting with his own sons. Because of this, I haven't reacted as strongly as some people did when it shown in TPM that the Queen was elected. Remember, we aren't told the details about the election.

[PainRack]

Actually, this is close to how the kings in Sweden was elected by the Swedish nobility before Gustav Vasa transformed the Swedish state into what could be a called an autocratic system (around 1522) and decided that the office of the king would be inheritable, starting with his own sons. Because of this, I haven't reacted as strongly as some people did when it shown in TPM that the Queen was elected. Remember, we aren't told the details about the election.

Can you provide more details? A url perhaps?

[nightmare]

Actually, this is close to how the kings in Sweden was elected by the Swedish nobility before Gustav Vasa transformed the Swedish state into what could be a called an autocratic system (around 1522) and decided that the office of the king would be inheritable, starting with his own sons. Because of this, I haven't reacted as strongly as some people did when it shown in TPM that the Queen was elected. Remember, we aren't told the details about the election.

Can you provide more details? A url perhaps?

He's right. Several of the Swedish kings were elected, officially by the parliament, in actualilty by support of the foremost nobles. Norway and Denmark had similar systems. I think the head of state (king or queen) still has to be officially elected, although it's just a formality now. I didn't react at all to Amidala's position.

Here's some stuff I digged up for you:

http://www.sverigeturism.se/smorgasbord ... ation.html
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~yliu/Tour/aero/history.html

[Mange]

Actually, this is close to how the kings in Sweden was elected by the Swedish nobility before Gustav Vasa transformed the Swedish state into what could be a called an autocratic system (around 1522) and decided that the office of the king would be inheritable, starting with his own sons. Because of this, I haven't reacted as strongly as some people did when it shown in TPM that the Queen was elected. Remember, we aren't told the details about the election.

Can you provide more details? A url perhaps?

I took this from memory as I've studied history at the university (it's one of my minors making up my Masters degree). I was a few years off, it was 1539 the new rules on succession was decided on and formalized in 1560, but anyway, here are a few links:
http://www.harriet.nu/svenskakungar/enggustavvasa2.htm
http://www.luth.se/luth/present/sweden/ ... ings.shtml
http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/mirror ... archy.html (a really good site about this topic).