Imperial policy

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2004-03-22 08:32pm

Is their any cannon evidence (i.e. the movies) that the Empire was racist, sexist and anti-alien. I know that it is written deeply within the EU but I wanted to know if it was actually cannon.

To me more evidence shows that it was not. Palpatine had no problem working with aliens (Maul, the Trade Federation, etc.) so why should a government based on him. Also wasn't one of his powerful and capable aids a female. Palpatine seems more to me somebody who likes strength and ability and does not care what package that comes from.

So again I ask is their any cannon evidence to support the concept that the Empire was racist, sexist and anti-alien, or was it just rebel propaganda.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-03-22 08:37pm

sexist:We have only seen a fracture of the imperial military. So it is still possible that woman serve in the army. (In the game force commander, we actually see them, but this is EU)

anti-alien: the only ever anti-alien statement, that not even was clear was :"Where do you want to go with that...thing?"

Otherwise there isn't much.........

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-22 08:40pm

Not that I know of at the moment.

Palpatine didn't seem to be personally very sexist or xenophobic (and I really don't see the Empire being at all racist towards Humans, since it would be rather trivial). The xenophobic aspect was pretty much based on already pre-existing sentiments felt by the civilians, politicians, and military of the Empire. The sexism was just part of the system, I guess.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2004-03-22 08:44pm

Thanks,

This just makes it seem that the EU took one small reference and expanded it considerably.

anti-alien: the only ever anti-alien statement, that not even was clear was :"Where do you want to go with that...thing?"

We don't know if the Stormtrooper knew what it was (though this does not seem sufficient). Not to mention can you tell the gender of the Wookie from one appearance, if not then maybe the word 'thing' was replacing the word him. That could be used.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-22 08:46pm

Tribun wrote:sexist:We have only seen a fracture of the imperial military. So it is still possible that woman serve in the army. (In the game force commander, we actually see them, but this is EU)

Other parts of the EU also have the occasional female Imperial officer. I can at least recall instances of women serving in Imperial Intelligence and customs.

Then there was that one fourteen year old Moff from one of the X-wing comics, but let's not say anymore about her...

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2004-03-22 09:25pm

Leonia Tavira, I believe. Iceheart wannabe.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-22 09:36pm

Actually, I think I underestimated her age back there, considering that she was married and took her husband's Moff rank after he was killed.

The entries I'm reading describe her as a young wife, so she couldn't have been very old, maybe around 18.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-03-22 10:22pm

It is a possibility that "thing" was just a way of the Imperial Officer trying to act all superior. More likely arrogance.

And I thought Maul was a human who had a lot of crap done to him.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-03-22 10:33pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Actually, I think I underestimated her age back there, considering that she was married and took her husband's Moff rank after he was killed.

The entries I'm reading describe her as a young wife, so she couldn't have been very old, maybe around 18.

IIRC, she was 17. I know it's in I, Jedi, somewhere.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-22 10:35pm

Techno_Union wrote:It is a possibility that "thing" was just a way of the Imperial Officer trying to act all superior. More likely arrogance.

And I thought Maul was a human who had a lot of crap done to him.

Darth Maul is part of the Zabrak species.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-03-22 10:53pm

Is their any cannon evidence (i.e. the movies) that the Empire was racist, sexist and anti-alien. I know that it is written deeply within the EU but I wanted to know if it was actually cannon.

There is no canon evidence beyond some circumstancial stuff. One of the more telling points is that all the Imperial officers in the movies were human males. So it's not inconcievable that the Empire was speciest and sexist. There's no hard evidence that flat out says it though.

To me more evidence shows that it was not. Palpatine had no problem working with aliens (Maul, the Trade Federation, etc.) so why should a government based on him.

Of course he also used them, played them for fools, and is probably going to wind them all up dead.

Also wasn't one of his powerful and capable aids a female. Palpatine seems more to me somebody who likes strength and ability and does not care what package that comes from.

Which one? Isard? She got their mostly by a coup within Imperial Intelligence.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-22 10:58pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Also wasn't one of his powerful and capable aids a female. Palpatine seems more to me somebody who likes strength and ability and does not care what package that comes from.
Which one? Isard? She got their mostly by a coup within Imperial Intelligence.

Sly Moore, Palpatine's female Umbaran aide from AotC:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... vie_bg.jpg

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-03-22 11:01pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Also wasn't one of his powerful and capable aids a female. Palpatine seems more to me somebody who likes strength and ability and does not care what package that comes from.
Which one? Isard? She got their mostly by a coup within Imperial Intelligence.
Sly Moore, Palpatine's female Umbaran aide from AotC:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... vie_bg.jpg

Ah. Okay. Is there more imformation about her? The databank is awfully short on details.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-03-22 11:07pm

Her Movie section is pretty much just limited to a description, but the following is from her EU section:

Sly Moore's taciturn demeanor kept her inner agenda unknown to most of her colleagues, though it was whispered that she possessed a very strong ambitious drive. Some gossiped that she somehow eliminated Sei Taria's from public office, paving her ascent to the Supreme Chancellor's side, though nothing conclusive has ever come to light.

Moore's enigmatic countenance derives from her Umbaran heritage. She is from a breed of near-humans hailing from a shadowed planet deep in the Ghost Nebula. Umbarans have an eerie reputation for being able to influence -- perhaps even control -- the minds of others.

Moore's piercing gaze can only see in the ultraviolet spectrum, and her seemingly colorless shadowcloak is in actuality adorned with intricate patterns visible only to her and similarly sighted beings.

Of all of the Supreme Chancellor's aides, Moore is said to be the closest, and privy to the Chancellor's deepest secrets.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2004-03-22 11:09pm

That's the exact person I meant.

Sly Moore, Palpatine's female Umbaran aide from AotC:

He uses people based on abilities, that is not the same as somebody who is sexist or racist (alien racist). They don't see anything worthwhile of that particular species or gender. He formed the Empire he would not restrict a segmant of the population that in the end could prove to be very loyal if he cultivates them well.

Still, from what I hear the circumstances are very limited and its seems that the EU writers wanted to make the Empire as bad as possible and the Rebellion as good.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-03-22 11:12pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Her Movie section is pretty much just limited to a description, but the following is from her EU section:
Sly Moore's taciturn demeanor kept her inner agenda unknown to most of her colleagues, though it was whispered that she possessed a very strong ambitious drive. Some gossiped that she somehow eliminated Sei Taria's from public office, paving her ascent to the Supreme Chancellor's side, though nothing conclusive has ever come to light.

Moore's enigmatic countenance derives from her Umbaran heritage. She is from a breed of near-humans hailing from a shadowed planet deep in the Ghost Nebula. Umbarans have an eerie reputation for being able to influence -- perhaps even control -- the minds of others.

Moore's piercing gaze can only see in the ultraviolet spectrum, and her seemingly colorless shadowcloak is in actuality adorned with intricate patterns visible only to her and similarly sighted beings.

Of all of the Supreme Chancellor's aides, Moore is said to be the closest, and privy to the Chancellor's deepest secrets.

Yes, I know. But that doesn't say much about her actually relationship to Palpatine. Just because he's got her for an aid doesn't mean that he's not speciest and sexist.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-03-22 11:17pm

Admiral Felire wrote:He uses people based on abilities, that is not the same as somebody who is sexist or racist (alien racist). They don't see anything worthwhile of that particular species or gender.

News flash, their have been plenty of racists (and sexists) that have used people they believe were inferior. What do you think racial slavery was?

Admiral Felire wrote:He formed the Empire he would not restrict a segmant of the population that in the end could prove to be very loyal if he cultivates them well.

On the contrary, Palpatine is totally ammoral. He'd be willing to use any one and anything. It's entirely possible that he encouraged racial and gender bias for personal gain.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-03-23 12:17am

Tribun wrote:sexist:We have only seen a fracture of the imperial military. So it is still possible that woman serve in the army. (In the game force commander, we actually see them, but this is EU)

We might also consider when the movie is written. By the standards of the time, women don't go on Warships IIRC. Hell, I think 1978 was when the first women graduated from the US Naval Academy, and they weren't allowed on warships for time to come.

What had really happened is that Star Wars dragged on till our moralities changed. Now it looks really sexist for the Empire not to let women on, but by the standards at the time it was written, it might have been more controversial if a lot of women were seen on the Imp warships.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-03-23 12:52am

Stormbringer wrote:
Admiral Felire wrote:He uses people based on abilities, that is not the same as somebody who is sexist or racist (alien racist). They don't see anything worthwhile of that particular species or gender.
News flash, their have been plenty of racists (and sexists) that have used people they believe were inferior. What do you think racial slavery was?

You're not actually saying that Palpy training an alien as his apprentice has any bearing on 'racial slavery' are you?

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-03-23 02:49am

Were there any females during the ending ceremony in ANH? (Apart from Leia.) Were there any aliens? (Apart from Chewie, who was not a member of the Aliance.) So, judging from the ANH movie, the rebels were just as sexists and racials. At least, the novelisation mentions them.
In TESB, we saw a female technician, but that was all.
BTW, do not forget that Leia was a senator. An imperial senator. So, in early imperial government, women were allowed in canon.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-03-23 03:01am

vakundok wrote:Were there any females during the ending ceremony in ANH? (Apart from Leia.) Were there any aliens? (Apart from Chewie, who was not a member of the Aliance.) So, judging from the ANH movie, the rebels were just as sexists and racials. At least, the novelisation mentions them.

Why only judge the Rebels by ANH when they appeared in the two other films? The Rebels weren't just as sexist and racist - as we see, women can have powerful positions in the RA (Leia, Mon Mothma), and are seen also as base personnel (ESB). You want aliens? Fish-face (Admiral Ackbar), Moonface (Lando's Sullastan co-pilot), and Chewie.

In TESB, we saw a female technician, but that was all.

Still more than what we see the Imperials with.

BTW, do not forget that Leia was a senator. An imperial senator. So, in early imperial government, women were allowed in canon.

And then Palpatine disbands the Senate. Canon. Meaning "who cares?"

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-03-23 03:26am

Stofsk wrote:Why only judge the Rebels by ANH when they appeared in the two other films? The Rebels weren't just as sexist and racist - as we see, women can have powerful positions in the RA (Leia, Mon Mothma),

Both of whom were senators, and both of whom had their position most likely thanks to their finacial support of the RA.

and are seen also as base personnel (ESB). You want aliens? Fish-face (Admiral Ackbar),

Who are required to crew the Mon Calamari provided ships.

Moonface (Lando's Sullastan co-pilot)

And going by the fact that the RA fleet was openly gathering in the Sullust system, it's likely that the Sullustans had their very few positions thanks to various backing of the RA.

and Chewie.

Who is not actually a member of the RA.

In TESB, we saw a female technician, but that was all.
Still more than what we see the Imperials with.

And how often do we see similiar positions onboard ISDs? And how sure can you be, with their faces hidden under their funny helmets, that there was absolutely no female Death Star crewman?

And then Palpatine disbands the Senate. Canon. Meaning "who cares?"

Yes, Palpatine disbands the Senate... After 20-or-so years of the New Order.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-03-23 03:38am

Stofsk wrote:Why only judge the Rebels by ANH when they appeared in the two other films? The Rebels weren't just as sexist and racist - as we see, women can have powerful positions in the RA (Leia, Mon Mothma),

They USED to have powerful positions in the Imperial Senate too, until they betrayed the Empire and are now being chased all over the galaxy. So it is a plus one for the Empire as well.

and are seen also as base personnel (ESB). You want aliens? Fish-face (Admiral Ackbar), Moonface (Lando's Sullastan co-pilot), and Chewie.

Actually, you might not want to bring up Admiral Ackbar. This is not revealed in the film, but it turns out that the entire Mon Calamari Fleet is an exercise in racism, specially designed for use by Mon Calamari in vital positions even after the integration.

(BTW, I suppose there might be a useful explanation for Mon Cal tardiness in updating those interfaces, but I've yet to see a satisfactory one.)

In TESB, we saw a female technician, but that was all. Still more than what we see the Imperials with.

You saw ONE technician and concluded that it is better? Please also remember the Rebels are more desperate than the Empire for people.

Fleet positions are also different from support positions 'onshore'. Women have been serving as communications and other support stuff before they were allowed on warships or in active combat roles in the US, AFAIK.

And then Palpatine disbands the Senate. Canon. Meaning "who cares?"

But that's an act against democracy rather than sexism or racism, and honestly with Treasonous Senators like Leia and Mothma, who can blame him. I bet a lot of male, human senators were bumped out as well.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-03-23 03:46am

Lord of the Farce wrote:Both of whom were senators, and both of whom had their position most likely thanks to their finacial support of the RA.

You mean how Mon Mothma was a Senator before the RA was even created? And do we know how Leia became a Senator?

Who are required to crew the Mon Calamari provided ships.

Yes... and? So they have Mon Calamari troops and crew, who are "the soul" of the RA.

And going by the fact that the RA fleet was openly gathering in the Sullust system, it's likely that the Sullustans had their very few positions thanks to various backing of the RA.

Of course. The RA is allied with Sullust. What's the problem?

Who is not actually a member of the RA.

Perhaps he's an honourable member then. He's certainly in a position of trust.

And how often do we see similiar positions onboard ISDs? And how sure can you be, with their faces hidden under their funny helmets, that there was absolutely no female Death Star crewman?

I don't know. And I can't be sure. But I never said the Empire was sexist or racist, Vakundok said:

...So, judging from the ANH movie, the rebels were just as sexists and racials.

Emphasis mine. I was simply pointing out this wasn't true, and that we don't see similar examples on the Imperial side. That implies the Imps are sexist/racist, which doesn't contradict the EU either; but the canon doesn't come right out and say it. Sorry if my post was murky, but there's the clarification.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-03-23 03:53am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Actually, you might not want to bring up Admiral Ackbar. This is not revealed in the film, but it turns out that the entire Mon Calamari Fleet is an exercise in racism, specially designed for use by Mon Calamari in vital positions even after the integration.

Yeah fair enough. You mean the MC ships are designed to be run by MC only?

You saw ONE technician and concluded that it is better? Please also remember the Rebels are more desperate than the Empire for people.

NO. My position is the rebels aren't as bad as the Imps. Vakundok said they were (basing this assertion only on ANH). I was saying, "No, they're not." In a galaxy with trillions of inhabitants how are we going to make a determination the Imps are racist and sexist based off of a mere fraction of their forces? We can't. All we have is vague implications. It's the EU which comes out and says "the Empire is _" while the canon does not.