How did Mon Calamari survive Invasion?

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-20 04:19pm

This has always troubled me, more so than any thing else in SW.

How could the Mon Cal have survied an Imperial Invasion for so long?
Here are problems I see:

1. Mon Cal is not remote, despite early EU references Mon Calamar is not a recently discovered planet. In TPM a Quarren Senator, so Mon Cal is a Sector capital representing thousands of worlds. So she probably has a strong planetary shield and defenses.

2. The EU states that the majority of the Rebel fleet was tasked with the defense of the Mon Cal planet. The planet is the chief source of material and shipbuilding for the rebel Alliance. Clearly this is a target that must not be destroyed at all costs.

3. We know that even before the DS it is possible to over come a planetary shield; bombardment fleets, torpedo sphere, etc.

Even if Mon Cal were a completely militarized system, it could not hope withstand the might of an entire Galaxy. The only conclusion that I can draw is that one of the following must be true:

1. Did not know the full extent of the planets collusion with the Rebels.

2. There is something special about the Mon Cal system or its location that prevented the concentration of military power necessary to pacify the planet.

3. There Mon Cal actually started openly supporting the Rebellion just prior to ROTJ.

4 The Empire did not have the forces neccesary to subjugate a militarized system so far from the core worlds.

All opinions, theories, and even wild speculation are welcome. What say you all?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-20 04:22pm

I heard that once their cruisers were up and functioning after driving away the Imps, the Mon Cals mined most available routes to the planet, leaving only a couple open which were well guarded.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-10-20 04:39pm

Curtis Saxton deals with the Quarren continuity problem here:

http://theforce.net/swtc/preq/tpmcont.html#quarren

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-10-20 04:40pm

I heard that the Death Star's next target was Mon Cal. Guess they waited for the second...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-10-20 05:08pm

I suspect form of massive mine array, possible with gravity well generators combined with some very narrow entry vectors from hyperspace into the system. The Empire could not spare the ships to travel for weeks or months at sublight to storm the system, which no doubt had a few dozen or more major combatants protecting it in addition to fixed defenses.

Its also possible the Mon Cal where support to have been with the Rebellion from around Yavin onward, but they may not have rearmed the fleet until around ROTJ and thus not been very high on the threat list.

RadiO · Post by **RadiO** » 2002-10-20 05:43pm

The existing clues to what happened seem to be stock NR propaganda -"Plucky freedom fighters throwing off the stupid facist invaders", without adding the traditional rider to that sort of thing: "Acts of defiance result in shitloads of civilians being murdered and the full might of subjugation being applied."
Maybe the Mon Cals got off lightly, comparitively speaking, because they were very good at hiding what they were doing. Maybe they had an elaborate means of concealing the movements of starships and weapons to the Rebellion.
Or maybe, like the Polish Navy in WWII, the Mon Cal units aiding the Rebels were acting in the name of a government in exile.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-10-20 06:07pm

I would venture the following guesses:

1. Only a few hyper routes into the system

2. Hyper routes mined like mad

3. Many orbital defence platforms over Mon Calamari

4. Mon Calamari and it's moons have powerful planetary shields

5. Mon Calamari and it's moons have shit loads of surface to space weaponary.

6. Lots of Alliance starfighters and cap ships in area.

7. Groups like Hapes willing to press the advantage should the Imps pull ships to invade Calamari.

In other words, MC is a deathtrap for any invader. The Death Star would have probably been the only satisfactory means of dealing with the planet. And we all know what happened to the Death Stars.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-20 06:35pm

Durran Korr wrote:

Curtis Saxton deals with the Quarren continuity problem here:

I like his ideas, but they won't work to explain this. It the 'Hunt for Aura Sing graphic novel, we see a Jedi & Republic police raid on Calamari. Also the Quarren Senator Tikkes is shown, he's key to the story; because Song is hired to kill him. Calamari is no secret.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-20 06:58pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:

I would venture the following guesses:

1. Only a few hyper routes into the system

Thus creating a bottle neck, in which case the Imps should be able to easily contain them.

2. Hyper routes mined like mad

But the Empires production capacity, vastly outstrips any single planet. Flood the area with drones until the field collapses.

3. Many orbital defence platforms over Mon Calamari

Orbital paltforms have never done very well against capital ships in the EU. Also they can always take the platforms out at long range, since they're imobile. Bombard the planetary shields from long range, the planet can't evade fire either.

4. Mon Calamari and it's moons have powerful planetary shields

A definite possibility; but its possible to crack a planetary shield with far less that SL level power.

5. Mon Calamari and it's moons have shit loads of surface to space weaponary.

See #3

6. Lots of Alliance starfighters and cap ships in area.

Insignificant against the full weight of the Empire.

7. Groups like Hapes willing to press the advantage should the Imps pull ships to invade Calamari.

This is very likely to have been a partial cause.

In other words, MC is a deathtrap for any invader. The Death Star would have probably been the only satisfactory means of dealing with the planet. And we all know what happened to the Death Stars.

I like your thinking. Combine a number of your points together and Mon Cal's gets to continue existencing. I'm still inclined to think that the Imps didn't know the full extent of Calamari's support; because despite all of the above Palpy could easily have crushed them.

Force Storms, anyone?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-10-20 10:38pm

I've never understood what Force Storms do. Is it like the Dark Archon's attack in StarCraft?

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2002-10-20 11:48pm

In the ANH, none of our fish head friends are seen. So it very likily that they waited till it DS1 was destroyed to throw their hat into the rebel cause..

Very likily waiting until they had finished converting their entire fleet into warships.. And the whole battle of Endor was a stage to draw the fleet away from the supporting weaponary of their home world orbital and planet base batteries..

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-21 12:07am

Yes how could they be Isolasionist when its stated in Novlesiations if I remeber corretly that the Mon Cal Crusiers all started life as LUXURY CRUISERS and then had guns grafted on(Thats where the first ten or so came from anyway) and the implication is made that they Built these Hyperspace equiped Crusiers on thier own

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-21 02:17am

So far, all of the responses seem to fall into two categories:

Fighting the Empire directly (impractical, unrealistic)
Not a target for some reason

The second explanation seems far more reasonable than the first. If half of the creativity devoted to the first explanation was devoted to the second, we would probably find an explanation.

My take on it: Mon Calamari has a large ship-building enterprise. Their ships are very common. They are widely used civilian vessels, so it is neither surprising or noteworthy to see one cruising around any given planet. Ergo, their support for the Rebellion was probably not noticeable, might not even have extended to their federal government, and may have been overstated by overzealous New Republic propagandists.

Think about it: we see some MonCal ships with the Rebels. Why do we assume that the MonCal government must be involved? Couldn't some independent group of ship builders have purchased a few MonCal cruisers and converted them to warships, and then gotten some MonCal crewers for them? Why does the presence of a MonCal ship necessarily indicate MonCal federal government support?

If the MonCal federal government did not officially support the Rebellion, the presence of their ships is not necessarily an embarassment for them. They can simply say that somebody obviously bought some of their luxury cruisers and must have converted them to warship. They can't be blamed for what their customers do with their products after they take delivery, can they?

And of course, AFTER the war, the NR pretends that the MonCal were valiant warriors, standing brave and tall before the Imperial Horde. Cue inspirational propaganda music.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-21 05:21am

There you have it. Completely reasonable.

The presence of a Corellian Corvette in the Rebel fleet does not mean Corellia is a Rebel planet. The presence of Calamari Cruisers in the Rebel fleet does not mean Mon Calamari was a rebellious world.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-21 09:23am

Darth Wong wrote:

So far, all of the responses seem to fall into two categories:

Fighting the Empire directly (impractical, unrealistic)

Not a target for some reason

The second explanation seems far more reasonable than the first. If half of the creativity devoted to the first explanation was devoted to the second, we would probably find an explanation.

My take on it: Mon Calamari has a large ship-building enterprise. Their ships are very common. They are widely used civilian vessels, so it is neither surprising or noteworthy to see one cruising around any given planet. Ergo, their support for the Rebellion was probably not noticeable, might not even have extended to their federal government, and may have been overstated by overzealous New Republic propagandists.

Think about it: we see some MonCal ships with the Rebels. Why do we assume that the MonCal government must be involved? Couldn't some independent group of ship builders have purchased a few MonCal cruisers and converted them to warships, and then gotten some MonCal crewers for them? Why does the presence of a MonCal ship necessarily indicate MonCal federal government support?

If the MonCal federal government did not officially support the Rebellion, the presence of their ships is not necessarily an embarassment for them. They can simply say that somebody obviously bought some of their luxury cruisers and must have converted them to warship. They can't be blamed for what their customers do with their products after they take delivery, can they?

And of course, AFTER the war, the NR pretends that the MonCal were valiant warriors, standing brave and tall before the Imperial Horde. Cue inspirational propaganda music.

Thats's the best explanation I've heard.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-21 11:11am

According to the books, and i am sorry for quoting KJA, Ackbar was the personal slave of GM Tarkin and the rebels launced a raid to free Ackbar just prior to the launch of the DS1. Ackbar is reported to have spent the rest of the time convincing the peaceful Mon Cal ppl to join the rebellion and convert the star cruisers. Also KJA made mention of the Empire raiding Mon Calmari and making the best engineers service and refine the ISD. Therefore my conclusion is that the Mon Cals didn't attract much attention from the Empire untill Armed Mpn Cal's started showing up and by then most of the Imperial fleet was occupied at Endor guarding the DS2.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-21 11:36am

You rescue Ackbar in a mission from the original (1993) X-Wing. If I recall you fly a Y-Wing and had to use your ion cannons ... the beginning of the blue blast FALLACY

Your impression doesn't conflict with Wong's. The Mon Calamari DID supply converted warships to the Rebellion, but it's not like the place was blanketed with shipyards as if it was the Kuat system, and the Empire knew perfectly well about this massive war industry and did nothing about it. That's patently absurd. There are so many ship-builders in the SW galaxy all sorts of crap is going to show up in the hands of the Rebellion- they only had some odd half-dozen cruisers at Endor- and that was the entire Rebel fleet fighting there (canon radio play IIRC).

Still, the Mon Cal can build impressive ships. The Home One puts an Imperator-class to shame in terms of size (though its design is quite sub-optimal).

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-21 11:49am

and by then most of the Imperial fleet was occupied at Endor guarding the DS2

Oh not not another one who suscibes to the Fallacy that 30 ships are enough to Control 1 Million Systems

hvb · Post by **hvb** » 2002-10-21 04:29pm

Wong is right (has to be, it's his website

)
Achbar may be lobbying for Mon Cal entry into the rebellion, but he is NOT and has never been described as part of the Mon Cal government.
If the Mon Cal have a large production of luxury liners, it is possible that Achbar convinced some Mon Calamari to join the rebellion, especially if the empire had used heavyhanded recruitment (enslavement say the rebels) of techs, and the techs on the recieving end of this drive would be more likely to come over; result:
A high proportion of Mon Cal shipbuilding/crew in the rebel recruits, so they would be likely to organize a few of their familiar hulls and convert them to warships. (this would be the best use of their existing skills, and the rebellion likely cannot afford too much retraining of recruits anyway)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-22 08:11am

When i say most of the fleet i meant the ready fleet, the part of the fleet not involved in guarding major facilities, protect systems, on pirate partol etc.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-22 10:34am

Muad'Dib wrote:When i say most of the fleet i meant the ready fleet, the part of the fleet not involved in guarding major facilities, protect systems, on pirate partol etc.

Positing that those 25+ ships are the sum of the Empire's ready reserve fleet will get you flamed. It' canon that the Imperial fleet was the local sector fleet; supplemented by the Executor.

Also

1- a larger fleet deployment is more likely to attract attention and leaks from Rebel spies. The Imperials sought to entice the Rebel into attack by tricking them:

Mon Mothma during the briefing: "With the Imperial fleet spread throughout the galaxy, in a vain effort to engage us, it is relatively unprotected"

Clearly, the Rebels thought there fleet would be enough to deal with the few ships they expected to encounter.

2- a larger fleet deployment is not necessary. The Death Star 2 was present, and with its shield up and superlaser functioning the Rebel fleet was apparently doomed. Unfortunately things went wrong, the Death Star 2 was destroyed- but most importantly: the Emperor was killed. The Empire would've continued on its merry way had it not been for this.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2002-10-23 08:32pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:I've never understood what Force Storms do. Is it like the Dark Archon's attack in StarCraft?

No. Palpatine's Force Storm ripped apart the Eclipse and several, possibly all escort vessels in what what is stated to be a Force-generated energy tornado.

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/br/cv-de39.jpg

Modular taskforce cruiser hit by Force Storm, from Robert Brown's site.

As for the question at hand, I always assumed the Mon Calamari didn't support the rebels openly until they had won, unlike Alderaan. We all know what happened there. Anything else doesn't make much sense, not to me at least.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-24 01:59pm

The force storm was used against imperial city as well, and transported Luke and R-2D2 to the dungeonship. That is not a MTC in that pic by the way.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2002-10-25 01:25am

I know it doesn't look like it, but he claims it's a MTC.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-10-25 11:06pm

They do state the Mon Calamari provided the Alliance with the backbone of its capital ship fleet, but I do not believe they ever directly specify that this was carried out at Mon Calamari the planet.

Indeed, we know that there are mobile hyperspace-capable shipyards in the GFFA known as "deepdocks" and we know the much of the Incom Corperation R&D department defected with the X-Wing before ANH. There's no reason to suggest that the Mon Calamari were not operating outside their home system, perhaps in a protected and isolated system in Wild Space/Unknown Regions with a set of shipyards that were moved back to Calamari following the lucky Rebel triumph at Endor.

However, it is additionally possible that the Calamari defeated an initial assault due to Imperial folly, and by that time the Emperor was already having the Death Star II assembled and insisted on leaving the rogue system alone so he could personally obliterate it with his superweapon. There is precedence for this, Lord Vader was to personally capture Rebel personnel and equipment on Yavin and DBZ parts of the surface where neccessary with the Executor, which had not yet been completed. The Imperial Starfleet depolyed a blockade including a flottilla of Interdictors which alone were capable of squashing the base, but were ordered to hold until Vader could personally deliver the blow in the massive flagship. Stupid? Yes. But not without precedent. And certainly, why not let the Mon Cals think they'd repulsed the Empire and crush their hopes later? Why not let them build a few more Star Cruisers that could be filled with pitiful Rebel scum he'd use as target practice for his glorious new weapon?

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