An interpretation of the OT

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-21 11:58am

An intepretation purely in terms of the Empire versus Rebellion issue, and exactly why the Empire lost.

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Number one thing to remember before we get started: The Emperor is the Empire. With the Emperor dead, and no clear line of succession ... oh shit.

The Rebel fleet an Endor was the ENTIRE Alliance fleet (canon radio drama). I've heard a few times on this board "the rebel fleet was so small, if the Empire was so big, how could they have been a threat?".

Answer: they weren't a big threat. Look at the events of A New Hope. Does that look like a really threatening Rebellion to you? They were a thorn in the Empire's side, nothing more.

The major issue for the Empire in the OT is the hunt for Luke Skywalker. In comparison, the Rebellion was a minor issue.

Evidence:

- Let's just pretend that somehow Obi-Wan goes to the Death Star by himself to retrieve the plans, rescue Leia, and deliver the plans to the Alliance. Vader will kill him. But let's just pretend that Han manages to rescue Leia on his own, and delivers the plans. The Death Star is on its way to Yavin via the tracking device.

- Who's going to make the shot to destroy the Death Star? It was an impossible shot for a targeting computer: and Luke accomplished it through force instincts alone, obviously. Yes, Han Solo saved Luke from his father, but it's not like Han could've made the shot.

- "We have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker ... He could destroy us"- Emperor Palpatine identifiying the magnitude of the threat in Empire Strikes Back

Therefore, in my opinion the entire Battle of Endor trap was set up to kill two birds with one stone.

Of primary importance:

- Turn Luke Skywalker to the Dark Side. The destruction of the Rebel fleet and the death of his friends on Endor would be enough to let his anger take over. It almost worked.

Of secondary importance:

- Get rid of the Rebellion.

If Luke hadn't managed to turn his father back to the Light:

- The Emperor would have lived, and escaped. The destruction of the DS2 would've been a mere drop in the ocean- just like the first.

I don't agree that the reason the Empire was defeated was because the Emperor was pre-occupied with the Skywalker family drama. The reason the Emperor was killed was because he overestimated the hold he had over Darth Vader. As long as Luke Skywalker lived, he was the only thing that could stop the Empire- i.e. the Emperor and his Sith Lord. This was demonstrated dramatically in A New Hope. All else was secondary- the Skywalker 'family drama' was of utmost importance to the survival of the Empire.

Whaddya reckon?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-21 12:41pm

I agree the Rebellion was no more than a thron in the Empire's side.

Skywalker represented a middling threat. He had the potential to ressurect the the Jedi Order, a mjor threat to him and his pet darksiders. Also a major rallying point since he destroyed the DS1.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-10-21 02:20pm

Absolutely correct. When seriously attempting to take on the Empire in anything other than minor harassment, I always assumed that a massive military machine would need to be built up, even before I started looking at the Technical Commentaries. The Rebellion barely qualified as a nuisance.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-10-21 06:21pm

The Rebellion was the modern-day equivalent of a bunch of guys with box cutters, and look at the sort of damage that can do.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-21 07:52pm

SPOOFE wrote:The Rebellion was the modern-day equivalent of a bunch of guys with box cutters, and look at the sort of damage that can do.

They were a little more sophisticated but the analgoy holds up pretty well.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-22 02:52am

Thanks for the feedback guys- I plan to cut and paste from this post whenever I hear some idiot disputing Imperial fleet numbers by pointing out the small size of the Rebel fleet.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-22 08:06am

a Major attack group in the Alliance consisted of what 5 Mon Cal Cruisers and support ships. Most of the Empire's forces was devoted to stopping cultures killing each other. Palpys mistake was over estimating Skywalkers threat to him. Luke was a half trained boy, even a phamtom menace padewan seems to have more control. Palpy let his obsession with the Jedi to get the better of him, and he put too much trust in Vader and not enough in his other Darksiders, why have just Vader waiting for him when he could have sent Jade, Jerric and a few other dark Jedi he had on tap. Vader would have found it hard to kill his wn son, fallen jedi or not, so Palpy shoulda send more forces to make sure Vader went through with it or died with him. The second gripe was building the DS2 in somewhere as badly open as Endor, why not build in KDY or any other secure system, admitidly palpy had a whole fleet but why take chances.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-22 10:32am

Muad'Dib wrote:a Major attack group in the Alliance consisted of what 5 Mon Cal Cruisers and support ships. Most of the Empire's forces was devoted to stopping cultures killing each other. Palpys mistake was over estimating Skywalkers threat to him. Luke was a half trained boy, even a phamtom menace padewan seems to have more control. Palpy let his obsession with the Jedi to get the better of him, and he put too much trust in Vader and not enough in his other Darksiders, why have just Vader waiting for him when he could have sent Jade, Jerric and a few other dark Jedi he had on tap. Vader would have found it hard to kill his wn son, fallen jedi or not, so Palpy shoulda send more forces to make sure Vader went through with it or died with him. The second gripe was building the DS2 in somewhere as badly open as Endor, why not build in KDY or any other secure system, admitidly palpy had a whole fleet but why take chances.

What we saw was the entire Alliance fleet: there were over half dozen Mon Cal cruisers involved in the attack.

Now:

1- Canon only. All this other dark side force user stuff goes out the window. Especially considering they come from computer games, and George Lucas when he was making the film had obviously not envisioned such things.

2- Building the Death Star II at Endor was the POINT. The entire thing was a TRAP: "It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator ..." The entire DS2 thing was an elaborate leak. It was not built at Endor to be safe from attack, it was built there so it would BE attacked.

3- The trap was a risk; but as I pointed out- even if everything had gone totally awry- if Vader hadn't thrown the Emperor to his death (due to Luke's influence), the Emperor would've gotten away and the Rebellion would have lost its one chance at killing the Emperor. Luke was the key. I cannot emphasize it enough.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-23 10:34am

It is later suggested that Palpy did nt want the rebels to know the location and he made up the trap thing to cover up fir Imperial Intelligence's mistake.

Luke was a half trained farmboy with no concept of his own power. Palpy should have killed him and not toyed with him. How come in every filem the bad guys are morons who have the chance to kill the hero but come up with elabourate ways to kill them.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-23 10:58am

Muad'Dib wrote:It is later suggested that Palpy did nt want the rebels to know the location and he made up the trap thing to cover up fir Imperial Intelligence's mistake.

Luke was a half trained farmboy with no concept of his own power. Palpy should have killed him and not toyed with him. How come in every filem the bad guys are morons who have the chance to kill the hero but come up with elabourate ways to kill them.

IIRC, official material (Shadows of the Empire) says that Prince Xizor persuaded the Emperor to perform this elaborate trap.

Yes Palpatine definitely miscalculated. Remember how it was Vader who persuaded him: "If he could be turned, he would be a powerful ally", because he still had some good in him- and as Luke pointed out in ROTJ: "That's why you couldn't destroy me."