About the Chiss issue{this is actually a new one}

[Lex]

I've read thru all Chiss threads, and IMO everyone fails to see that in the Vision of the Future Trilogy, the Chiss EMpire clearly is a part of the Empire, even lead by the Imperial Admiral Parck. Thrawn might conquered the unknown regions as a Chiss, but he did it for the Empire. And the territory of the Unknown regions is, according to Mara and Luke(and that's the only reference we have) almost a quarter of the galaxy. Sure, there are hardly as many stars in the UR as in the core, but still it must be a huge number. So I ask what happened to the Imperials out there? IMO they are still there, having the Chiss Empire included in their territory(in no novel I read one gets to read about their territory size.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh boy..

[Chris OFarrell]

YOu havn't read through the threads.

1. The Chiss are not part of the Empire.

2. The part of the Chiss Thrawn had were a splinter group.

3. They have nothing in the way of real ships or resources.

4. The size of the Unknown regions is very hard to quantify. Some people think its three quaters of the Galaxy, which is a little insane. Other people (specificaly some here) think that it can't be more then a tiny tiny fraction of the Galaxy. Personaly I think that its a significant size, a large fraction of the other part of one Galactic arm from most of the NJO maps. But relativly tiny compared to the rest of the Galaxy.

5. The threats they were refering to are not the Vong or some other uber threat. The statement Steen made has been taken out of context many times. He was in fact talking abotu protecting the CHISS from many of the scum and villians out in that sector of space. Who are no threat to the Republic or Empire, but could easily cause large damage out there.

[His Divine Shadow]

The purpose of the Chiss is to flip out and kill people

[Chris OFarrell]

The purpose of the Chiss is to flip out and kill people

Yes. Yes it is.
Think of them as the Germans of the SW Universe.

[PainRack]

5. The threats they were refering to are not the Vong or some other uber threat. The statement Steen made has been taken out of context many times. He was in fact talking abotu protecting the CHISS from many of the scum and villians out in that sector of space. Who are no threat to the Republic or Empire, but could easily cause large damage out there.

That still leaves the question of what had the firepower to take out the Intimidator, a later model Executor class star destroyer.

[Trytostaydead]

Still the point remains that if the great threat that Thrawn was preparing for was not the Vong, the threat that made him set up contingencies should Bastion OR Coruscant fall.. what is it? Something made Thrawn realize that even with his leadership and the resources of the Galaxy behind him, he STILL might not win. Even Fel felt that way. Hence, the Baron Fel clones all over the galaxy, and God knows who else has been cloned and planted all over the galaxy.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

You obviously haven't read the threads very well, thinking the UR is a quarter of the galaxy.

[FTeik]

Those threats vanished in the mists of the EU, like Callista, Daala and god only knows what else.

The sad fact is, that with the progressing of the EU the Chiss and the Empire of the Hand or both of them together became smaller and more puny with every new source, that was printed.

Blame it on EU-minimalism, but that´s the way things are and is - in my eyes - the waste of a wonderful threat-potential (thats why i still argue for them, argue, that "something has to be out there", even when most of the evidence points in the other direction. But if a civilisation with one million major worlds can build the equivalent of almost four billion ISD (DSII) in a year, why shouldn´t a single world have at least a few dozen of them?)

We will only see large fleets and vast armies waiting in the UR, if the people at LFL have totally run out of ideas for "new" threats and turn back to established "characters", but on that day continuity will have totally been thrown out of the window and i don´t know, if that will be a good thing.

[Lex]

when talking about UR being a quarter of the galaxy, i refer to luke and mara whcih definitly are the only source. even if some in ehre believe otherwise, they have nothing to back that up, have they? now ok, the chiss and this empire out there are 2 different fractions, but what on earth happened to the empire out there? what did parck and fel do?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm not going to bother flipping out and killing people.

Needless to say, I think I've already done my work on the subject.

So, if you have a point, learn spelling, capitalization, etc. and write a concise statement of your assertions, complete with supporting evidence from the Star Wars literary canon.

Don't want to? That ok too, just shut up instead.

[Lex]

your behavior leaves much to be disired... I'm neither a fucking american nor a fucking enligshmen, so believe it or not, english is not my fucking language. I don't care what you've done on this subjec,t if you don't want to post here just fuck off, oK?

[Illuminatus Primus]

your behavior leaves much to be disired... I'm neither a fucking american nor a fucking enligshmen, so believe it or not, english is not my fucking language. I don't care what you've done on this subjec,t if you don't want to post here just fuck off, oK?

Alright then. Your ideas have been duly noted on my invisible typewriter. Piss off.

Don't want to support your assertions? Don't expect someone who has to give you the time of day.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

when talking about UR being a quarter of the galaxy, i refer to luke and mara whcih definitly are the only source.

[Rogue 9]

5. The threats they were refering to are not the Vong or some other uber threat. The statement Steen made has been taken out of context many times. He was in fact talking abotu protecting the CHISS from many of the scum and villians out in that sector of space. Who are no threat to the Republic or Empire, but could easily cause large damage out there.

That still leaves the question of what had the firepower to take out the Intimidator, a later model Executor class star destroyer.

Wait a minute, when was the Intimidator taken out? (I haven't read all of the NJO, but if it was taken out by something other than the Republic, Imperial Remnant, or the Vong, then I'm highly interested.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

That still leaves the question of what had the firepower to take out the Intimidator, a later model Executor class star destroyer.

It wasn't battle-damaged. Nothing said that. Just that it was scuddled out on the rim of the galactic bulge. Starships can't have emergencies?

[President Sharky]

It is suspicious when an Executor-class Star Destroyer is found damaged beyond repair at the edge of the Galaxy. What kind of emergency could have taken place to have damaged it to such an extent?

AOTC shows that the Republic has charted not only the whole of the main galaxy, but 2 satellite galaxies as well, meaning that the assertions of the UR being a quarter of the main galaxy are totally false. The UR makes up only 15% of the galaxy (main galaxy, satellites, clusters, halo), and is comprised of only about 100,000 stars. 15% of the main galaxy would certainly contain several billion stars.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Doesn't work bub. Common fucking sense, and simple logistics show that the entire galaxy should've been charted and homogeneously colonized and exploited rather early in the twenty-five thousand year history of the old Republic.

Besides, the 15% quote also tells us the Unknown Regions contains a few hundred thousand stars.

[PainRack]

What was the orginal Unknown Regions gamemaster section notes? Wasn't it something along the lines of a region of space that's sparsely population, with numerous settlements that are uncharted ,no central control by the Empire and of course, smugglers, pirates and characters with a past to hide would hide out in the UR?


2 sectors of planets to collect plunder and tax from, a few isolated military bases and factories, training bases could easily be established. Similarly, militant alien races, indeed, the entire reason why the UR are unknown in the first place could exist in the region, isolated from mainstream civilisation by short-range hyperdrives. Considering the known military weakness of both NR and IR forces at the time, the talk about a threat being hidden there that could threaten the New Republic is certainly valid.


Regarding colonisation and exploration, that need not be true. The distribution of wealth and population pressure may dictate the general direction of colonisation, furthermore, settlements in the UR may not had been successful enough as to dictate the notice of the Old Republic. The Galactic Survey, noticed in the BFC trilogy certainly suggests that the Old Republic did not have current political authority or knowledge of every single settlement in the galaxy.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What was the orginal Unknown Regions gamemaster section notes? Wasn't it something along the lines of a region of space that's sparsely population, with numerous settlements that are uncharted ,no central control by the Empire and of course, smugglers, pirates and characters with a past to hide would hide out in the UR?

That's fine, what we're all saying, and what Saxton has said, is a spiral galaxy's arms are basically homogeneous in composition (in other words, the kind of space containing important locales such as Sluis Van, Eriadu, etc. will be located throughout the galactic disk). This kind of a region will not be found well within the perimeter of the galactic disk. The range of useful space in a spiral galaxy ranging from "dense and useful" to "sparse and shit" will basically be in concentric disks.

The Unknown Regions is generally a stupid idea for logistical and all manner of realistic purposes (and Mike and Saxton agree with me on that basis). However, since it must be rationalised, it should exist throughout the galactic halo outside denser regions of stars and nebulae.

Similarly, militant alien races, indeed, the entire reason why the UR are unknown in the first place

That makes no sense; militant alien races, particularly those like observed examples (the Nagai, Tofs, Yevetha, Yuuzhan Vong, etc.) are expansionist. This would attract mainstream galactic attention and eventually precipitate their submission and incorporation into the mainstream galactic civilisation, as they simply lack the industrial and military capacity to compete or even to remain independent. These groups are the equivalent of militant native Caribbean tribes before the arrival of the Spaniards; their territories comparitively less than the meager islands of the West Indies, and territory and resources reflect technological and societal maturity--the Spaniards had the advancement to match their land, resources, and population. It is tempting to regard the scale disparity between these "hostile alien races" and the mainstream galactic civilisation as the same kind of disparity between the Spaniard conquistadores and the Carib natives; encounters between the two in both cases possibly an example of an "Outside Context Problem." The disparity is simply enormous, the scale difference in population and territory and resources is measured in the many orders of magnitude, even when compared with a single modest sector of the old Republic.

For example, the Tofs and Nagai simply could not compete with the mainstream galactic powers. The Yevetha only politically threatened a confederation of a relative handful of galactic worlds (the NR comprehended ~1% of the Galactic Empire's territory ten years after the Battle of Endor); the YV could not match the selfsame politically corrupt and incompetent confederation. It is hard to imagine how the Yuuzhan Vong ever imagined they could totally conquer the whole galaxy--they simply do not have enough ships or men, particularly taking into account their ridiculously inefficient and impractical religious agendas: trashing all existing infrastructure and manufactures because of heretical "machinery" (this is due to abominable writing standards and creativity in the SW EU, but I digress).

As Dr. Saxton notes, the Yuuzhan Vong invasion could only be relatively successful in this brief turmoil in the galactic order and civilization. Even in the pre-Prequel Era, the Yuuzhan Vong would face single species and corporations capable of easily fielding no less than tens of thousands of two-mile starships (the Trade Federation and the Nemodians), single species believing themselves the capability to construct a battlestation the scale of a small planetoid (the Geonosians and the Death Star).

isolated from mainstream civilisation by short-range hyperdrives. Considering the known military weakness of both NR and IR forces at the time, the talk about a threat being hidden there that could threaten the New Republic is certainly valid.

Hardly. If you read Vision of the Future, Stent sndiely regards Mara as "soft," contrasting her and her people's lot as "safe behind a ring of starships" against him and the Chiss, which are portrayed at peril. The hyperbole of a "hundred blood-freezing threats" doesn't necessarily mean that those threats would threaten the Imperial Remnant or New Republic, especially if Stent does not enjoy contradicting himself.

Besides, by your proposal, your hypothetical threat would be incompetant to launch attacks and capture and hold strategic targets, simply due to deficiencies in drives.

Regarding colonisation and exploration, that need not be true. The distribution of wealth and population pressure may dictate the general direction of colonisation, furthermore, settlements in the UR may not had been successful enough as to dictate the notice of the Old Republic. The Galactic Survey, noticed in the BFC trilogy certainly suggests that the Old Republic did not have current political authority or knowledge of every single settlement in the galaxy.

All resources, interesting locales, useful locations for colonization, etc. will have been explored and cataloged in twenty-five thousand years of technological stasis and hyperdrive flight. Moreover, those locales will be homogeneously spread through the galactic disk. Any patches of overlook or uninteresting destinations will be very local and similarly spread through the seams of the galaxy. The majority of overlooked settlements and regions should be in the galactic halo, where lower density means that, for good reason, it is avoided and ignored.

[PainRack]

What was the orginal Unknown Regions gamemaster section notes? Wasn't it something along the lines of a region of space that's sparsely population, with numerous settlements that are uncharted ,no central control by the Empire and of course, smugglers, pirates and characters with a past to hide would hide out in the UR?

That's fine,

Actually, I just wished to confirm that was what WEG said about the Unknown Regions. It been years since I saw that bit of info and I don't even recall which sourcebook it was from.

That makes no sense; militant alien races, particularly those like observed examples (the Nagai, Tofs, Yevetha, Yuuzhan Vong, etc.) are expansionist. This would attract mainstream galactic attention and eventually precipitate their submission and incorporation into the mainstream galactic civilisation, as they simply lack the industrial and military capacity to compete or even to remain independent. These groups are the equivalent of militant native Caribbean tribes before the arrival of the Spaniards; their territories comparitively less than the meager islands of the West Indies, and territory and resources reflect technological and societal maturity--the Spaniards had the advancement to match their land, resources, and population. It is tempting to regard the scale disparity between these "hostile alien races" and the mainstream galactic civilisation as the same kind of disparity between the Spaniard conquistadores and the Carib natives; encounters between the two in both cases possibly an example of an "Outside Context Problem." The disparity is simply enormous, the scale difference in population and territory and resources is measured in the many orders of magnitude, even when compared with a single modest sector of the old Republic.

Not neccesary. The Zhou Empire maps of the steppes and territory further south was extremely vague due to the presence of frontier barbarians. The military, resource and technology advantage of the Zhou empire was sufficient to had overwhelm any individual nomadic tribe attempt to physically defend a set territory. Furthermore, any attempts to had conquer the nomadic plains and jungles south of China would had been a vast expenditure of resources, without any noticeable short-term gains as the terrain was unsuitable for chinese agriculture, no noticeable mineral wealth was present and too much strain would had been placed on internal China to supply these conquests. Furthermore, since it was impossible for China to had wiped out a nomadic tribe existence, the continued existence of an external threat would had meant continued stationing of military forces in the region, along with the increased costs of transporting grain, military equipment and maintaining roads and labour animals.

to extent that analogy to the Republic, individual sectors of the Galactic Disk may never had been well explored due to the presence of militant alien races, that were limited by their own resources, internal fighting and sheer distance from the centre of Republic civilisation. The Republic never devoted its attention to the Unknown Regions, facing more drastic internal problems like the Sith Wars and etc etc etc. While individual factions of the Republic, and certainly traders would had ventured into the UR, politicaly, the UR just didn't factor in on their radar. Attempts to have colonised in the region could also had been counter-productive, due to the lesser density of stars and the costs of maintaining those worlds.

If we ignore some aspects of the NJO depiction of the Unknown Regions, and simply accept that the Unknown Regions merely consist of space where mainstream civilisation infomation is extremely out of date, with little knowledge of whether any planet/star is colonised or the continued viability of that settlement, whether a supernova had destroyed a system and so on and forth, its certainly plausible.

Hardly. If you read Vision of the Future, Stent sndiely regards Mara as "soft," contrasting her and her people's lot as "safe behind a ring of starships" against him and the Chiss, which are portrayed at peril. The hyperbole of a "hundred blood-freezing threats" doesn't necessarily mean that those threats would threaten the Imperial Remnant or New Republic, especially if Stent does not enjoy contradicting himself.

Besides, by your proposal, your hypothetical threat would be incompetant to launch attacks and capture and hold strategic targets, simply due to deficiencies in drives.

Note: I never said that there existed in the UR civilisations that can conquer the IR or the NR. To elaborate, I said that there existed in the UR, civilisations, that if they had the technological and logistical reach, could threaten the IR or NR. Threaten, as the nomadic tribes of Rome in republican days, the nomadic tribes of the northern steppes in China, mountain tribes in the Indian civilisation, pirates in various maritime civilisations threaten. They could cause vast destruction in a localised region, carry off large amounts of plunder and cause embarrasing military defeats, that the central authority cannot afford or adequately defend against. We do know that both the IR and NR were drastically short in equipment, men and cash.

All resources, interesting locales, useful locations for colonization, etc. will have been explored and cataloged in twenty-five thousand years of technological stasis and hyperdrive flight. Moreover, those locales will be homogeneously spread through the galactic disk. Any patches of overlook or uninteresting destinations will be very local and similarly spread through the seams of the galaxy. The majority of overlooked settlements and regions should be in the galactic halo, where lower density means that, for good reason, it is avoided and ignored.

Agreed. The UR is probably located in the galactic halo, and as opposed to the Vector Prime map, more likely consist of localised regions of space that were just not politically up-to-date. However, combine sufficient numbers of localised regions of space together, especially if we remember that Outer Rim worlds were usually poorer and commanded less political authority than Core worlds, meaning that the radius of authority Outer Rim capitals could command is shorter than Core worlds, then the borders of Outer-Rim sectors may become a section of unconnected space that is relatively unexplored.


Its certainly not without precedent. Just last year, or was it 2001, Indonesia conducted a vast maritime survey that discovered the existence of a further 100 islands in its territory. Considering the scale of the Republic and if we remember that Unknown basically refers to out of date, its plausible that a sufficient number of regions were lumped together to become the Unknown Regions. Absurd perhaps, but plausible.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, this thread has progressed pretty much along the lines I thought it would.

[PainRack]

I'm not interested in glorifying the Chiss. I'm more interested in why the Unknown Regions is still unknown.

[Crown]

Doesn't work bub. Common fucking sense, and simple logistics show that the entire galaxy should've been charted and homogeneously colonized and exploited rather early in the twenty-five thousand year history of the old Republic.

Of course, the fact that China had 3 mast sailing ships that they could have used to colonise the rest of the world with, 200 years before the European powers were ready to, is totally ignored.

We know that the outer rimworlds weren't part of the NR from TPM, why is it hard to assume that worlds that are even futher away or even more remote would generate little, to no interest from the Republic?

Besides, the 15% quote also tells us the Unknown Regions contains a few hundred thousand stars.

I would have thought that the 'Unknown Regions' are just to sparse, distant, backwater dregs of the galaxy that no one cared about having diplomatic relations with, hence why they are 'unknown'. So I would readily agree with this.

[Luzifer's right hand]

It is suspicious when an Executor-class Star Destroyer is found damaged beyond repair at the edge of the Galaxy. What kind of emergency could have taken place to have damaged it to such an extent?

AOTC shows that the Republic has charted not only the whole of the main galaxy, but 2 satellite galaxies as well, meaning that the assertions of the UR being a quarter of the main galaxy are totally false. The UR makes up only 15% of the galaxy (main galaxy, satellites, clusters, halo), and is comprised of only about 100,000 stars. 15% of the main galaxy would certainly contain several billion stars.

Only 100.000 stars altogether or 100.000 inhabited star systems?