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I've read that in the EU it is stated, with a place called Byss as an example, that Palpatine planned to create a ruling class of Dark Jedi who would feed off of the souls of their slave populace.

That strikes me as terribly inconsistant with the whole Sith philosophy, specifically in that more Sith != good.

Was it, perhaps, just bullshit made up by the NR to make themselves look better? I'm just speculating here ...

Crom wrote:I've read that in the EU it is stated, with a place called Byss as an example, that Palpatine planned to create a ruling class of Dark Jedi who would feed off of the souls of their slave populace.

That strikes me as terribly inconsistant with the whole Sith philosophy, specifically in that more Sith != good.

Was it, perhaps, just bullshit made up by the NR to make themselves look better? I'm just speculating here ...

Nope.

Chris OFarrell wrote:

Crom wrote:I've read that in the EU it is stated, with a place called Byss as an example, that Palpatine planned to create a ruling class of Dark Jedi who would feed off of the souls of their slave populace.

That strikes me as terribly inconsistant with the whole Sith philosophy, specifically in that more Sith != good.

Was it, perhaps, just bullshit made up by the NR to make themselves look better? I'm just speculating here ...

Nope.

Err...allow me to elaborate

Palpy is pure evil--we know this because the movies show the 'absolute truth', and as such if he is pure evil there then he just is, so was the Empire. Thus, anything he is going to do will be evil. So, to my mind, there is no reason to doubt the idea he was trying to create a race of Dark Jedi nazis or some such.

That's how it seems to me anyway.

Crom wrote:I've read that in the EU it is stated, with a place called Byss as an example, that Palpatine planned to create a ruling class of Dark Jedi who would feed off of the souls of their slave populace.

That strikes me as terribly inconsistant with the whole Sith philosophy, specifically in that more Sith != good.

Was it, perhaps, just bullshit made up by the NR to make themselves look better? I'm just speculating here ...

The actions aren't that different from the Sith race........... or even what Exar Kun tried to do.

Just because it was evil doesn´t mean, that it was the smart thing to do. You can see that very nicely in DEII, where two of Palpatine´s most closest friends destroy his cloning-vats.

However this changes (unfortunately, if you ask me) nothing on the truth about it, since this was made clear in the DE-Sourcebook or another one of the accompanying sources. That i have to buy additional material to understand whats going on in a comic ... .

It's just a continuity hickup between what the EU authors thought GL meant (perhaps based on his ever-changing mind) and what we now "know" from the Prequels.

So makeup whatever retcon makes the most sense I guess. ; P

The Sith "Rule of Two" existed solely to keep the Sith Order hidden from Jedi prying eyes before the overthrow of the old order and the extermination of the Jedi.

It isn't some hard-line dogmatic line to adhere to.

New Dark Jedi would simply be extensions of the Emperor's will, just like Executor Sedriss and his "elite" warriors were. Palpatine planned to control every single being in the galaxy, including his own sith order, while at the same time he would live forever by transferring to different clone bodies.

One question though: Is it known what the average lifespan of one of Palpatine's clones was? By DE, the body he was in seemed to be as old as his ROTJ self (76 yrs. old), but he could not have been using that for more than 5 years.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Sith "Rule of Two" existed solely to keep the Sith Order hidden from Jedi prying eyes before the overthrow of the old order and the extermination of the Jedi.

It isn't some hard-line dogmatic line to adhere to.

Thought it was because of the Sith Wars; the Sith turned on each other.

But Palpatine wasn't raising an order of the Sith; he was training Dark Jedi. There's a crucial difference.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Sith "Rule of Two" existed solely to keep the Sith Order hidden from Jedi prying eyes before the overthrow of the old order and the extermination of the Jedi.

It isn't some hard-line dogmatic line to adhere to.

Thought it was because of the Sith Wars; the Sith turned on each other.

But Palpatine wasn't raising an order of the Sith; he was training Dark Jedi. There's a crucial difference.

What is the difference between Dark Jedi and Sith? I must confess to always assuming they were equivalent.

StimNeuro wrote:What is the difference between Dark Jedi and Sith? I must confess to always assuming they were equivalent.

Dark Jedi are basically any Force user (some with prior Jedi training) who uses Dark Side powers. The Sith are members of the Sith Order (essentially the elite of Dark Side users).

IIRC a Dark Jedi was a regular Force User who fell to the Dark Side.

A Sith is one trained specifically in the dark arts.

This is why Vader is both Dark Jedi AND Sith...since his training was overseen by Palpatine after he turned.

President Sharky wrote:One question though: Is it known what the average lifespan of one of Palpatine's clones was? By DE, the body he was in seemed to be as old as his ROTJ self (76 yrs. old), but he could not have been using that for more than 5 years.

Interestingly enough, modern info on cloning-- derived mainly from all the lab rats and Dolly the sheep-- indicate that there's the possibility that clones are, genetically, the same age as their "original". Biologically, they're younger, of course, but the genes are identical and have the same "age"; this is more or less the explanation for why Dolly died at only about six years old (IIRC-- could be wrong) even though sheep can live a good deal longer with proper care, and it's not as if she wasn't pampered...

Anybody think this could be part of it? Additionally, clone-Palpy more or less grows up using Sith magic all his life; the original Palpy likely started when he was older, at least in his teens (the full-fledged Sith magic, that is; no doubt he learned most basic Force skills and the like before he began into the heavy stuff).

Also, there's the issue of appearances to consider, I suppose... might be a few awkward questions if Palpy shows up on Byss, right after ROTJ, all spiffy and young-lookin'... after DE, maintaining the deception wouldn't have been necessary because it was more or less general knowledge afterwards. Of course, this is probably just a wild idea... it does kind of sound like Palpatine's style to me, though. He was nothing if not thorough--his scheme to destroy the Rebellion at Endor demonstrates that; what killed him was a certain Wookiee, leather-clad teddy bears, and a young Jedi's father.

Don't the Sith also have unique traditions and rites and such that your average Dark Jedi does not?

Also, I seem to remember something about the Sith controlling their rage and hatred as a tool, while Dark Jedi are ruled by their feelings. I have a sneaking suspicion that might have been from StarCrossed, though. If so, disregard this paragraph.

Elheru Aran wrote:

President Sharky wrote:One question though: Is it known what the average lifespan of one of Palpatine's clones was? By DE, the body he was in seemed to be as old as his ROTJ self (76 yrs. old), but he could not have been using that for more than 5 years.

Interestingly enough, modern info on cloning-- derived mainly from all the lab rats and Dolly the sheep-- indicate that there's the possibility that clones are, genetically, the same age as their "original". Biologically, they're younger, of course, but the genes are identical and have the same "age"; this is more or less the explanation for why Dolly died at only about six years old (IIRC-- could be wrong) even though sheep can live a good deal longer with proper care, and it's not as if she wasn't pampered...

Anybody think this could be part of it? Additionally, clone-Palpy more or less grows up using Sith magic all his life; the original Palpy likely started when he was older, at least in his teens (the full-fledged Sith magic, that is; no doubt he learned most basic Force skills and the like before he began into the heavy stuff).

Also, there's the issue of appearances to consider, I suppose... might be a few awkward questions if Palpy shows up on Byss, right after ROTJ, all spiffy and young-lookin'... after DE, maintaining the deception wouldn't have been necessary because it was more or less general knowledge afterwards. Of course, this is probably just a wild idea... it does kind of sound like Palpatine's style to me, though. He was nothing if not thorough--his scheme to destroy the Rebellion at Endor demonstrates that; what killed him was a certain Wookiee, leather-clad teddy bears, and a young Jedi's father.

Given their advanded ability at cloning(Boba Fett alone is proof of that), most likely not.

The given thought that the Dark Side of the Force is corrupting within him and destroying him at an incredibly accelerated rate, because of his ability with it is considered the more appropriate answer and one supported much more so in both the EU and canon.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Palpy is pure evil--we know this because the movies show the 'absolute truth', and as such if he is pure evil there then he just is, so was the Empire. Thus, anything he is going to do will be evil. So, to my mind, there is no reason to doubt the idea he was trying to create a race of Dark Jedi nazis or some such.

I must've missed this. Power-hungry? Yes. Domineering? Certainly. Ruthless? Definitely. But pure evil? How do you figure?

To my knowledge, canon never put forth the whole thing about Palpy ruling the galaxy with a cadre of Dark Jedi feeding on everyone and everything. If that's the case, that means it's EU, which in turn means it's colored by NR propagandists. What's the IR gonna do, sue the NR for libel? So unless Palpy actually says something to that effect in Ep III, I'm giving it a healthy dose of skepticsm, personally.

I bet Palpy says "I'm pure evil" (complete with pinky to lip motion) in Episode III and everyone just laughs, 'cause he has them all in his power.

; )

The given thought that the Dark Side of the Force is corrupting within him and destroying him at an incredibly accelerated rate, because of his ability with it is considered the more appropriate answer and one supported much more so in both the EU and canon.

Not to be a canon purist asshole, etc, but where in canon is the idea supported that the Dark side of the Force is "destroying him at an accelerated rate"?

Isn't Palpy's transformation from AOTC to ROTJ 27 (or more) years later more consistent with normal aging, considering his apparent age in the current prequels? Plus artificially aging the clones so they don't take anybody off guard (suddenly he looks like he's 25 instead of 80) probably would make things more complicated wouldn't it?

I dunno...he seems possessed of exceptionally baggy skin...and how do you explain his eyes from just normal aging?

Elheru Aran wrote:*snip*

No, Star Wars technology has full mastery of the genome; only Palpatine's clones deteriorated so rapidly.

The reason being that the Force is apparently amplified by natural growth as a fetus, and the Force is "distanced" when the fetus is growing in a cylinder. Therefore, his clones are more removed from the living energy of the Force, and more subsumed into the Dark Side.

McC wrote:I dunno...he seems possessed of exceptionally baggy skin...and how do you explain his eyes from just normal aging?

His body is physically gnarled from the Dark Side; which has corrupted and mutated other organisms before. Keep in mind humans live well into the second century of their life in SW according to Truce at Bakura; Palpatine's aging was extremely advanced for Star Wars humans' life cycles and medical technology.

Moreover...around five years earlier he had been biologically twenty years old or younger.

Right, that's what I was saying. He seemed too decrepit for his age, meaning that Force corruption was as good an answer as any, since it's supported by EU as well.

Kurgan wrote:I bet Palpy says "I'm pure evil" (complete with pinky to lip motion) in Episode III and everyone just laughs, 'cause he has them all in his power.

; )

The given thought that the Dark Side of the Force is corrupting within him and destroying him at an incredibly accelerated rate, because of his ability with it is considered the more appropriate answer and one supported much more so in both the EU and canon.

Not to be a canon purist asshole, etc, but where in canon is the idea supported that the Dark side of the Force is "destroying him at an accelerated rate"?

The twisted and gnarled tree on Dagobah. It was deformed by the Dark Side.

Intersting (though who's to say the Dark Side deforms humans as well as it does trees). What's the source for that info? ESB novelisation?

His body is physically gnarled from the Dark Side; which has corrupted and mutated other organisms before. Keep in mind humans live well into the second century of their life in SW according to Truce at Bakura; Palpatine's aging was extremely advanced for Star Wars humans' life cycles and medical technology.

I'm most interested in evidence that this "rapid aging" and "dark side degeneration" was happening to him outside of the EU.

Be that as it may, paying attention to the films for a moment, Palpy appears already to be an old man at the time of TPM, which takes place some 37+ years before we see him again in ROTJ (not counting the incident of seeing his hologram in ESB which bears no resemblance to the actor we see playing him later with a different voice).

I say he looks to be in his late 50's (the actor was 52 playing him in episode I IIRC), though AOTC is supposed to be taking place 10 years later, so he looks that much older. BUT, who's to say how old he's really supposed to be in the first film? Just because lifespans are longer in Star Wars doesn't mean that people don't age.

It also can't mean that everybody remains looking like twenty-something's their whole lives since we witness plenty of other humans who are aged, and not even Force users (Chancellor Vallorum, Sio Bibble, etc). Even if they have incredible plastic surgery technology, apparently many people choose not to use it to it's potential.

It would seem rather odd though if Palpy was only 20 years old and nobody commented that he looked 30 years old than that!

Kurgan wrote:Intersting (though who's to say the Dark Side deforms humans as well as it does trees). What's the source for that info?

Donald F. Glut, The Empire Strikes Back, p 141 wrote:Luke shivered. "I feel cold," he said, still gazing at the tree."
"This tree is strong with the dark side of the Force. A servant of evil it is. Into it you must go."[said Yoda]

Heir to the Empire explicitly states that the tree was twisted by the Dark Side, although that's not exactly canon.

Ok, thanks.

Maybe the "dark side degeneration" thing is the NR (Jedi) propaganda?

(I can see it now: "Don't turn to the Dark Side, it'll give you wrinkles!")