StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Maybe I'm just stupid and using the wrong search terms on both Google and this site (and Wizards of the Coast and Star Wars and ...), but I'd like a consensus on which "EU" source is considered higher for the purposes of comparing starships and starfighters. Basically, I've had a running argument for the past few days with people I deal with over a fighter design that while legal by the Star Wars RPG standards (those were the rules that the fighter was created by), many felt that the ship was too powerful for use in X-Wing Alliance (the last of the X-Wing series games). Now, I acknowledge it was powerful, but when the discussion of standards came up, many stuck with the X-Wing games while I was behind the RPG rules (while I acknowledge the games, but as a lower source), was that a correct stance?

The role playing games are higher than the video games, though both are still somewhat low.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The role playing games are higher than the video games, though both are still somewhat low.

I would disagree in terms of starship characteristics, as far as WotC is concerned. Not only do they repeat every noteworthy error of their predecessors, but they add a whole bunch more to them.

In terms of ranking in the Canon/EU hierarchy, the WEG/WotC RPGs are above the video games.

What fighter design were you arguing about, anyway?

It's a custom design, something a friend and I put together.

Game MECHANICS are probably the lowest of anything, however story is another ..heh story

Super-Gagme wrote:Game MECHANICS are probably the lowest of anything, however story is another ..heh story

Yes. One example of "story" and non-mechanics bit is everyone's favorite, the BDZ, which, to my knowledge, first appeared in WEG's "Star Wars Imperial Sourcebook." And hell, has it appeared anywhere else other than Stavro's fic which reduced the surface of the Klingon homeworld to a molten state? Official source material, mind you.

Base Delta Zero and what it pertains is mentioned in the Canon ICS for AotC. I believe it is also mentioned in several EU sources.

Off the top of my head, The Hutt Gambit, Specter of the Past, Vision of the Future, Scavenger Hunt, The New Jedi Order Sourcebook, the Star Wars Technical Journal, and several short stories in the Star Wars Adventure Journal.

Is there a hierarchy within the EU?

I never knew there was. My assumption would be whichever one agrees more (ie: doesn't contradict) with the pure canon (films and direct film based official materials) would be the "higher." It's possible that they both have strengths and weaknesses.

But yeah, it seems like that despite how we say games are the lowest rung of official they still have a huge influence on the rest of the EU...

Kurgan wrote:Is there a hierarchy within the EU?

Yes, of course there is.

The EU hiearchy goes

Movies
Movie Support material (i.e Radio Dramas, Novelizations, Source books)
TV Shows/TV Movies (i.e Clone Wars cartoons, Droids Cartoon, etc, Ewoks Battle for Endor, etc)
Books (novels)
Books (comics)
RPG Stories, Video Game Stories

seeing that x-wings on their own are able to take down ISDs within the videogames, i wouldn't recommend using the capabilities presented in them as canon.

Darth_Zod wrote:seeing that x-wings on their own are able to take down ISDs within the videogames, i wouldn't recommend using the capabilities presented in them as canon.

Heck they are considered Apocrypha.

Given that according the X-Wing Games...or Rogue Squadrons. I ALONE can defeat everything anything up to an SSD alone.

So game mechanics in SW games are thrown straight out because of the sheer skewing toward the players.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Darth_Zod wrote:seeing that x-wings on their own are able to take down ISDs within the videogames, i wouldn't recommend using the capabilities presented in them as canon.

Heck they are considered Apocrypha.

Given that according the X-Wing Games...or Rogue Squadrons. I ALONE can defeat everything anything up to an SSD alone.

So game mechanics in SW games are thrown straight out because of the sheer skewing toward the players.

I perfer to think that the fighter stats are more or less correct, its just that the Capital ships stats are lowered for your amusment.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Darth_Zod wrote:seeing that x-wings on their own are able to take down ISDs within the videogames, i wouldn't recommend using the capabilities presented in them as canon.

Heck they are considered Apocrypha.

Given that according the X-Wing Games...or Rogue Squadrons. I ALONE can defeat everything anything up to an SSD alone.

So game mechanics in SW games are thrown straight out because of the sheer skewing toward the players.

You can do it alone without the cheats and/or unlimited waves?

I mean, I suppose if one fighter could keep shooting at an ISD long enough and not get blown to tiny pieces, then yes, one X-wing could bring it down. Probably take far longer in "reality" than it does in the game though.

RogueIce wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

Darth_Zod wrote:seeing that x-wings on their own are able to take down ISDs within the videogames, i wouldn't recommend using the capabilities presented in them as canon.

Heck they are considered Apocrypha.

Given that according the X-Wing Games...or Rogue Squadrons. I ALONE can defeat everything anything up to an SSD alone.

So game mechanics in SW games are thrown straight out because of the sheer skewing toward the players.

You can do it alone without the cheats and/or unlimited waves?

I mean, I suppose if one fighter could keep shooting at an ISD long enough and not get blown to tiny pieces, then yes, one X-wing could bring it down. Probably take far longer in "reality" than it does in the game though.

No, because an ISD shields are going to replenish faster than the X-wing can degrade them. If the shield generators blow up due to act of plot before the fight, then it may be barely possible for the X-wing to eventually kill it(provided that Gomner Pyle is manning all of the ISD guns, and Luke is flying the X-wing).

consequences wrote:

RogueIce wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: Heck they are considered Apocrypha.

Given that according the X-Wing Games...or Rogue Squadrons. I ALONE can defeat everything anything up to an SSD alone.

So game mechanics in SW games are thrown straight out because of the sheer skewing toward the players.

You can do it alone without the cheats and/or unlimited waves?

I mean, I suppose if one fighter could keep shooting at an ISD long enough and not get blown to tiny pieces, then yes, one X-wing could bring it down. Probably take far longer in "reality" than it does in the game though.

No, because an ISD shields are going to replenish faster than the X-wing can degrade them. If the shield generators blow up due to act of plot before the fight, then it may be barely possible for the X-wing to eventually kill it(provided that Gomner Pyle is manning all of the ISD guns, and Luke is flying the X-wing).

For RI: Yes, it took a damn long time and lot of weaving but yes.

While some ships had the whole limitless wave, you could literally weave, and circle the dumb ship and have it's gun kill some of it's TIEs.

consequences: to make it worse...not even then...literally the amount of constant firepower the X-Wing would have to apply is akin to you and a toothpick trying to break down the Great Wall of China.

I mean if we gave the X-Wing somehow a limitless firepower and the pilot limitless provisions...and the ISD just sorta hunkered there shieldless....sure .

The X-Wing Series games and the RPG (Wizards of the Coast version, not West End Games ) also disagree on the weapon load outs of the fighters. For instance, in none of the X-Wing Series games does the B-Wing have the Autoblasters that the RPG states it should have (assuming E1 version, since the E2 version was released after the Battle of Endor and none of the X-Wing Series games take place in that timeframe).

Also, I don't recall shields ever replenishing on a capital class vessel in any of the X-Wing Series games (I've played them all).

RogueIce wrote:You can do it alone without the cheats and/or unlimited waves?

Slightly off-topic, but: I think it may be different depending on the difficulty level settings, but in XWA there are at least three "safe" spots on the SSDs. If you can blow the "shield generator" domes and then park yourself on that spot of a stationary SSD, you can just hold down the trigger until the thing is going to blow.

This is even funnier to pull off if you can get the SSD's fighters to fire on it and piss it off, and then place the SSD between you. Seeing the fighters trying to get to you but have to keep flying away as the SSD fire on them is... amusing...

In the X-Wing PC game series (i.e Tie Fighter, XwVsTie), if you know how, you can blast open the front warhead launcher on a Star Destroyer and fly inside the hull and just pound it from in there.

Solauren wrote:In the X-Wing PC game series (i.e Tie Fighter, XwVsTie), if you know how, you can blast open the front warhead launcher on a Star Destroyer and fly inside the hull and just pound it from in there.

Thought that was just X-wing vs. TIE Fighter. Couldn't do it in X-Wing (they had no warhead launcher) or in TIE Fighter that I ever noticed.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Solauren wrote:In the X-Wing PC game series (i.e Tie Fighter, XwVsTie), if you know how, you can blast open the front warhead launcher on a Star Destroyer and fly inside the hull and just pound it from in there.

Thought that was just X-wing vs. TIE Fighter. Couldn't do it in X-Wing (they had no warhead launcher) or in TIE Fighter that I ever noticed.

Only in XvT.

In X-Wing...you just shot for a while...same with TIE.

Pardon my skepticism, but is there REALLY an EU hierarchy (defined by LucasFilm) or is this just what we fans WANT it to be? (otherwise let me say that list makes sense)

No offense intended, I'm not saying that Rogue Squadron III is more accurate than the Clone Wars cartoon series, I'm just asking for honesty and fact-checking here.


Then again, I sort of assumed it was a case by case basis thing, not necessarily defined. Sort of like how we say storylines in games probably happened, but like gameplay stats probably don't (except when some EU writer takes them from a game and publishes them as a book, and as long as it doesn't contradict the books).