Sandtroopers, Snowtroopers, etc.

[Galvatron]

Is there anything unique about these troops or is it just a brainbug that the Empire has whole crops of special troops devoted solely to a certain type of environment? Couldn't they just be regular stormtroopers who wear cold-weather gear ("snowtroopers") and long-range patrol gear ("sandtroopers") when the situation calls for it?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

They're just nicknames for the more proper designations.

[Aaron]

Is there anything unique about these troops or is it just a brainbug that the Empire has whole crops of special troops devoted solely to a certain type of environment? Couldn't they just be regular stormtroopers who wear cold-weather gear ("snowtroopers") and long-range patrol gear ("sandtroopers") when the situtation calls for it?

I've often wondered about this myself. After all thats how real armies operate. If they're going to the desert they wear desert uniforms, if their going to the arctic they where cold weather gear and bring special equipment. They don't have arctic soldiers or desert soldiers. There are very few armies that maintain units for specific enviroments.

Edited for spelling and content.

[Kurgan]

Snowtroopers, Scout Troopers, Stormtroopers, Stormtroopers with dirty uniforms and backpacks... (and those variant trooper armors used by various pilots in the films)

Seems logical that they'd be able to outfit their troopers in other ways for other environments (including the white clad troopers covered in red hearts for hiding in the Rebel leaders's underwear drawers).

The only thing one wonders of course is if they had troopers with full camo & gear for the jungles why the didn't use those at Endor, but oh well.

[Howedar]

I've often wondered about this myself. After all thats how real armies operate. If they're going to the desert they wear desert uniforms, if their going to the arctic they where cold weather gear and bring special equipment. They don't have arctic soldiers or desert soldiers. There are very few armies that maintain units for specific enviroments.

Edited for spelling and content.

The spread of environments on Earth pales in comparison to that of the Empire. Earth does not have any environment (worth fighting for) like Hoth, nor are there vast radioactive wastelands, entire nations of swamp, hundreds of square miles of open pits of lava, etc.

[Aaron]

The spread of environments on Earth pales in comparison to that of the Empire. Earth does not have any environment (worth fighting for) like Hoth, nor are there vast radioactive wastelands, entire nations of swamp, hundreds of square miles of open pits of lava, etc.

True enough. But would it be cost effective to maintain units for these conditions? Or would it be better to just equip the unit for a mission on a lava planet, and then the next day for fighting on a Hoth type planet.

Another thing, how often are these units used? I'd imagine that there wouldn't be too many inhabited ice planets or radioactive wastelands. These units would probably spend alot of time in garrison.

[Galvatron]

Exactly. I think "sandtroopers" are just regular stormtroopers and their "desert gear" is what they'd wear on any long range deployment.

[willburns84]

With millions upon millions of planets to police, and octillions (?spelling?) of credits to spend upon the military, I don't see why they wouldn't spend money on special training for selected units of stormtroopers, not only training for using the new equipment but also making the most of the local environment, etc.

Rad troopers, seatroopers, sandtroopers and more. One could say that Stormtroopers are all around good troopers, and I agree with that, but if I were a sector commander, I'd want to have a corps of specialist troops that I can deploy in any conceivable environment.

One large real world formation that I am familiar (and I am by no means an expert), that has quite a bit of specialised training is the US Army's 10th Mountain.

[Galvatron]

While I'd think that standard stormtrooper training would already take into account the various hostile environments they'd encounter and their technology would compensate for the rest (e.g. "snowtrooper" gear).

[Howedar]

True enough. But would it be cost effective to maintain units for these conditions? Or would it be better to just equip the unit for a mission on a lava planet, and then the next day for fighting on a Hoth type planet.

Another thing, how often are these units used? I'd imagine that there wouldn't be too many inhabited ice planets or radioactive wastelands. These units would probably spend alot of time in garrison.

I don't see why not. When it takes a day to move essentially as many forces as you want anywhere, you can afford to have some specialized units.

[willburns84]

While I'd think that standard stormtrooper training would already take into account the various hostile environments they'd encounter and their technology would compensate for the rest (e.g. "snowtrooper" gear).

Hmmm.

Well, I suppose a lifetime of training could do that, but I'm just saying it's a matter of something that a Seatrooper does day in day out rather than generic trooper who has to wear five, ten, or twenty different hats. It just reminds me of the differences between a reservist/militia and professional soldiers - the professional soldier is a soldier everyday, training, practicing, honing their skills, rather than the reservist who does it every so often if they're lucky.

[Aaron]

One large real world formation that I am familiar (and I am by no means an expert), that has quite a bit of specialised training is the US Army's 10th Mountain.

Actually thats false. The 10th Mountain Div takes it's name from the 10th Mountain Division of WW2 fame that was specially trained to operate in mountainous regions. The present day unit has no specialist training.

[willburns84]

One large real world formation that I am familiar (and I am by no means an expert), that has quite a bit of specialised training is the US Army's 10th Mountain.

Actually thats false. The 10th Mountain Div takes it's name from the 10th Mountain Division of WW2 fame that was specially trained to operate in mountainous regions. The present day unit has no specialist training.

Ah... Crap. Thanks for the correction.

[YT300000]

The Empire encompassed thousands of worlds, with countless climate and terrain challenges. Their stormtrooper ranks reflected this through specialized units trained and equipped to operate in specific environments.

When you're as big as the Empire, having specialized units JUST for ice planets and JUST for desert planets isn't much of a problem (resourcewise or logistically).

[Aaron]

I can see having some specialist units. After all "Seatroopers and Radtroopers" operate in hostile enviroments. But as to having "Snowtroopers and Sandtroopers" there's no point. I was in the Canadian Army and I can tell you that a standard soldier can learn to survive and fight in both the arctic and the desert with no problems at all. In fact arctic training is a 2 week course and theres a refresher every year. So there's no point in having special units for these conditions when a standard soldier with specialised equipment will do fine.

[PainRack]

On the other hand, different environments require different equipment. Not all equipment work well in various environs. For example, the Apache systems initially malfunctioned in the humid environ of Panama. Equipment meant for the desert requires special filters for dust, sand, cooling mechanisms, lubricants, etc etc etc, whereas equipment meant for the artic will similarly require different types of lubricants and the like.

It is possible that in order to rationalise equipment types, and to prevent the kind of deployment problems that retraining in different types of equipment, they just had a specialised unit so as to facillate rapid deployment of troops.

[Howedar]

I can see having some specialist units. After all "Seatroopers and Radtroopers" operate in hostile enviroments. But as to having "Snowtroopers and Sandtroopers" there's no point. I was in the Canadian Army and I can tell you that a standard soldier can learn to survive and fight in both the arctic and the desert with no problems at all. In fact arctic training is a 2 week course and theres a refresher every year. So there's no point in having special units for these conditions when a standard soldier with specialised equipment will do fine.

If you're suggesting that a specialist won't do better than a guy with a two-week course every year, I have to question that one. Yes the normal soldier will do well, I'm not questioning that.
But surely a specialist would do better.

[Galvatron]

Well, I suppose a lifetime of training could do that, but I'm just saying it's a matter of something that a Seatrooper does day in day out rather than generic trooper who has to wear five, ten, or twenty different hats. It just reminds me of the differences between a reservist/militia and professional soldiers - the professional soldier is a soldier everyday, training, practicing, honing their skills, rather than the reservist who does it every so often if they're lucky.

Okay, because aquatic and zero-G environs are so radically different from solid land, I can accept the possibility of specially-trained stormtroopers for sea and space ops (e.g. Imperial SEALs).

But snow? Sand?? Regular stormtroopers should be well enough suited to any land-based operations with little more than special gear to deal with all but the most extreme conditions.

On the other hand, different environments require different equipment. Not all equipment work well in various environs. For example, the Apache systems initially malfunctioned in the humid environ of Panama. Equipment meant for the desert requires special filters for dust, sand, cooling mechanisms, lubricants, etc etc etc, whereas equipment meant for the artic will similarly require different types of lubricants and the like.

It is possible that in order to rationalise equipment types, and to prevent the kind of deployment problems that retraining in different types of equipment, they just had a specialised unit so as to facillate rapid deployment of troops.

I'm assuming, of course, that SW technology is not only more advanced, but also more durable than ours. R2-D2 weathered falling into the swamps of Dagobah without any apparent damage. Luke's X-wing was still spaceworthy after its bath. I'm assuming stormtrooper gear is also capable of enduring harsh cold and humidity with ease.

[Aaron]

If you're suggesting that a specialist won't do better than a guy with a two-week course every year, I have to question that one. Yes the normal soldier will do well, I'm not questioning that.
But surely a specialist would do better.

I know that a specialist will do better than a regular soldier, theres no question about that. I'm just questioning whether the difference in effectiveness would be enough to warrant having a special unit.

[YT300000]

If you're suggesting that a specialist won't do better than a guy with a two-week course every year, I have to question that one. Yes the normal soldier will do well, I'm not questioning that.
But surely a specialist would do better.

I know that a specialist will do better than a regular soldier, theres no question about that. I'm just questioning whether the difference in effectiveness would be enough to warrant having a special unit.

Like I said earlier, if you're the Empire, it's no real trouble, so any minor gain, especially when applied on a galactic scale, is worth it.

[willburns84]

If you're suggesting that a specialist won't do better than a guy with a two-week course every year, I have to question that one. Yes the normal soldier will do well, I'm not questioning that.
But surely a specialist would do better.

I know that a specialist will do better than a regular soldier, theres no question about that. I'm just questioning whether the difference in effectiveness would be enough to warrant having a special unit.

When you're the Empire - you don't give a shit about wasting credits or personnel - you have them in number beyond counting. Besides, one thing about the Empire is its bureaucracies which have no small amount of infighting, everyone wanted their own "specialist" and even regular troops to throw around. COMPNOR had their own assault troops, seperate from the Army. The Army was technically seperate from the Stormtroopers. The Navy had their own troopers. It reminds me of Nazi Germany and Goering (?spelling?) and his Luftwaffe Field Divisions, and I'm talking about the late war formations that never had a prayer of being air-dropped, they were bloody leg-infantry. Not to mention the SS, and of course the regular army thrown in...

Besides, having "in house" specialists, it let various commanders conduct operations and the like they wouldn't want others to find out...

[Sarevok]

Why bother using specialised troops? Standard stormtroopers are equipped with battlesuits. They should be able to survive in a wide variety of enviroments.

[hvb]

With their long time-in-service it is not inconcievable that many, or even most, stormtroopers are trained & equipped for one "specialist" environment, while also trained and normally deploying in "standard" environments like shipboard security & temperate planet / urban warfare. (note that urban warfare is the standard for core worlds, not the exception )
Thus the stromtrooper companies who have currently unutilized specialities would serve in "standard" positions from which they could be quickly replaced, by any reserves available disregarding their specialty, to ship out for a specialist target. This would give maximum flexibility and maximal utilization of the forces available while only requiring the individual trooper to have one additional environmental MOS beyond what we see in modern day Spec. Ops. Capable or professional regular army formation. (and we do not have a solid core of "lifers" in the form of a highly experienced clone NCO cadre to make it work, they do, those guys hit the ground fighting on Geonosis, and if they aren't dead yet, they are still on the job, wiping the noses of the "green" COMPNOR / regular army inductees to the stormtrooper corp ).

[Shroom Man 777]

Why bother using specialised troops? Standard stormtroopers are equipped with battlesuits. They should be able to survive in a wide variety of enviroments.

Hm? Standard stormies are not equiped with flippers and aquatic thrusters, therefore you can't use them underwater. Standard stormies are not equiped with rocket thrusters, therefore they can't be used in space. Standard stormies don't have extra radiation protection, they can't be used in over irradiated wastelands....

And you can't equip a stormie with everything and you can't train a stormie to use everything and fight everywhere, and even if you could, it's better to have troops who are specialized in a particular or in a few environments than trying to cram the entire thing into one soldier's head.

Who would be a better swimmer in one week?

You, constantly training in swimming, footballing, basketball, golf, ping pong and horse riding in the alloted time?

Or Bob, who spends the entire week swimming in a pool until he grows gills and dermal dentacles?

See.

And even if it would be difficult to mass produce specialized units, I don't think it would be too hard for garrisoned units to be specialized for their planet's terrain (ie. the stormies living in Hoth and guarding it would be ice troopers while the stormies stationed in Magma World would be lava troopers, etc.).

[PainRack]

On the other hand, different environments require different equipment. Not all equipment work well in various environs. For example, the Apache systems initially malfunctioned in the humid environ of Panama. Equipment meant for the desert requires special filters for dust, sand, cooling mechanisms, lubricants, etc etc etc, whereas equipment meant for the artic will similarly require different types of lubricants and the like.

It is possible that in order to rationalise equipment types, and to prevent the kind of deployment problems that retraining in different types of equipment, they just had a specialised unit so as to facillate rapid deployment of troops.

I'm assuming, of course, that SW technology is not only more advanced, but also more durable than ours. R2-D2 weathered falling into the swamps of Dagobah without any apparent damage. Luke's X-wing was still spaceworthy after its bath. I'm assuming stormtrooper gear is also capable of enduring harsh cold and humidity with ease.

Read what I said.

I said that in order to rationalise equipment types, and to prevent the kind of deployment problems that retraining in different types of equipment will mean, they just had a specialisde unit so as to facillate rapid deployment of troops.


C3PO in ANH complained that the dust and sand in his joints was making him unable to move. The sentry droid in the begining of the movie was broken down by ages of dirt and grime. IOW, as infalliable as SW equipment is, its still subjected to the same causes of fatigue and breakdown as in real life. Which is good cause its realistic.

Furthermore, we do know that the Empire uses specialised equipment for specialised environs, so as to enhance the combat effectiveness of its troops. Which is cool. Now, why do they do so? The reasons I just stated, to rationalise equipment types, and to facillate rapid deployment of troops suggest why such specialised units are maintained.