Endor battle?

[atkindave]

Actually I don't believe it did but still doesn't deny the fact that rebels didn't have an alternate longer ranged plan of landing elsewhere or destroying said installation through orbital means.

In TESB the Imperials wanted the Rebels alive, the Alliance would have no such compunctions against the Endor installation.

So to not hijack the thread in this tangent, if someone wishes to pursue this; present a theory that fits RoTJ that why would th rebellion opt for a route that would involve stealing a shuttle and shield codes or better still not bombard the installation from orbit if said shield did not encase both Endor and the DS2.

Here's what I think:

While it does not appear that Endor's shield covered the entire planet, it does appear that the installation is protected or the Alliance would not have had to get through the shield in the first place. The shield itself was too strong for the rebel fleet to penetrate quickly. A BDZ type operation, melting the crust around the base may have been distasteful for the Alliance on an inhabited world, and may have taken too long. The rebels wanted the shield down shortly before or simultaneously coinciding with their emergence from hyperspace. Too much warning beforehand would allow the generator to be repaired and/or a star fleet to be called in (kinda moot, as a fleet was there anyway, and the DS was operational...)

The alliance was expecting a token guard force at the shield generator, no more than a few ships and TIE's in Endor's space, and a DS that didn't work yet. As long as those things are true, the plan makes sense. If the opposite was true in any of the three cases, the plan shouldn't work. And yet it did, must have been the will of that pesky old Force.

[Ghost Rider]

Here's what I think:

While it does not appear that Endor's shield covered the entire planet, it does appear that the installation is protected or the Alliance would not have had to get through the shield in the first place. The shield itself was too strong for the rebel fleet to penetrate quickly A BDZ type operation, melting the crust around the base may have been distasteful for the Alliance on an inhabited world,and may have taken too long.

Why?

The fate of an inhabitated world weighed against the complete victory of the Empire?

Somehow I sincerly doubt they would've paid much heed.

Also a BDZ is done by one ISD...they had at least 4-5 Vessels of ISD capablity or more so in the forms of the MC-80, let alone Home-One.

The length of time is usually around an hour or less.

The rebels wanted the shield down shortly before or simultaneously coinciding with their emergence from hyperspace. Too much warning beforehand would allow the generator to be repaired and/or a star fleet to be called in (kinda moot, as a fleet was there anyway, and the DS was operational...)

But beggars why if the shield didn't protect the planet completely.

Remember supposing the Alliance is squeamish towards warfare is a bit of leap of logic given the stakes involved.

The alliance was expecting a token guard force at the shield generator, no more than a few ships and TIE's in Endor's space, and a DS that didn't work yet.

I doubt that, given that they were expecting the Emperor to stay for their attack.

As long as those things are true, the plan makes sense. If the opposite was true in any of the three cases, the plan shouldn't work. And yet it did, must have been the will of that pesky old Force.

Actually it worked because the Emperor was arrogant, to add in the will of the Force is adding in character shields.

And moving to Pure Star Wars because the topic is qwholly SW then ST vs SW .

[Deathstalker]

I just had a thought today. I am sure it has been mentioned before. Appearantly the DS2 was not as "fully armed and operational" as the Emperor boasted. If it had all it's systems working, then the DS2's shields would have come up as soon as the shield from the moon was dropped. No fighters flying into the guts of the Station, no explosion, smashed Rebel Fleet.

[Ghost Rider]

I just had a thought today. I am sure it has been mentioned before. Appearantly the DS2 was not as "fully armed and operational" as the Emperor boasted. If it had all it's systems working, then the DS2's shields would have come up as soon as the shield from the moon was dropped. No fighters flying into the guts of the Station, no explosion, smashed Rebel Fleet.

Actually we have no idea if the DS2 could produce a shield on that order of magnitude.

The closest thing we have is the first and the fighters had no trouble penetrating it.

[Stormbringer]

Why?

The fate of an inhabitated world weighed against the complete victory of the Empire?

Somehow I sincerly doubt they would've paid much heed.

They might well have. Remember that most of them are rather sappy idealists after all.

Also a BDZ is done by one ISD...they had at least 4-5 Vessels of ISD capablity or more so in the forms of the MC-80, let alone Home-One.

The length of time is usually around an hour or less.

True, but they don't generally have to blast through a very tough shield (IIRC they mentioned that the sheild could deflect anything they could throw at it) and fight off a fair size imperial fleet to while doing so.

But beggars why if the shield didn't protect the planet completely.

If it covered a signficant portion of the planet the only option migth be a total BDZ operation which they would have to conduct under fire. Not the easiest proposition.

And that assumes they consider it acceptable to BDZ the planet.

Remember supposing the Alliance is squeamish towards warfare is a bit of leap of logic given the stakes involved.

It's not unreasonable to think they'd be squeamish about it. I mean callusly wiping out an entire would, complete with cute fuzzy, helples primitives probably wouldn't be a happy choice for the rebels and it would be pretty bad PR wise anyway.

[Deathstalker]

I thought they could get through the shield on the first DS because they knew where the shield's seams were. The only reason the DS2 had the planet generated shield was because it wasn't operational and still underconstruction.

[Ghost Rider]

But all that sums up why go under the shield to directly reach a point which is not close to the Genrator?

Literally the space battle would've taken longer but this does not in any way preclude why they simply didn't take a longer trip to reach the shield generator with better equipment and such not.

Before someone goes "The Emperor could leave at any second" with that frame of mind, he could've left the day they were planning to assault...they never knew when so they were hoping he stays.

Also while being sappy, the weight of one specis versus the control of the Galaxy fully in sway of the Emperor?

Somehow I don't think anyone is that sappy no matter how much they seem to be if they are in any way a compentent military.

[Ghost Rider]

I thought they could get through the shield on the first DS because they knew where the shield's seams were. The only reason the DS2 had the planet generated shield was because it wasn't operational and still underconstruction.

Not really...they went through quite nicely(some rockiness)...also beggars how did the Millenium Falcon get out? Ben only deactivated the Tractor beam. If they had some sort of shield, barring the foreknowledge we have of Vader and Tarkin allowing them, they would've needed a plan to deactivate that as well.

Also Dodonna's first plan to assualt the DS1 was to use Cap ships and basically assualt it the same way Ackbar was saying(no knowledge of the Main reactor but to just pound on it...simply because it was the only plan they had before the finding of the Exhaust port)

[Stormbringer]

Also while being sappy, the weight of one specis versus the control of the Galaxy fully in sway of the Emperor?

Somehow I don't think anyone is that sappy no matter how much they seem to be if they are in any way a compentent military.

Given that they did have an alternate, if risky option they might well choose to forgoe a planet killing bombardment. The simple fact is they did choose to forgoe a BDZ bombardment so I'd say they might well be that sappy. Certainly if the EU is any indication, they're sappy enough to throw purely military considerations out in favor of political and idealogical concerns. They did do some thing similar with regards to Coruscant after all, an equally important objective.

[Ghost Rider]

Also while being sappy, the weight of one specis versus the control of the Galaxy fully in sway of the Emperor?

Somehow I don't think anyone is that sappy no matter how much they seem to be if they are in any way a compentent military.

Given that they did have an alternate, if risky option they might well choose to forgoe a planet killing bombardment. The simple fact is they did choose to forgoe a BDZ bombardment so I'd say they might well be that sappy. Certainly if the EU is any indication, they're sappy enough to throw purely military considerations out in favor of political and idealogical concerns. They did do some thing similar with regards to Coruscant after all, an equally important objective.

Coruscant also has important properties other then just a single shield generator. Literally an attack of that nautre on Coruscant one would have to use caution since BDZing Coruscant wouldn't just lower a Generator.

Remember they only knew that the DS2 was non operational.

The whole plan to go "Raid the generator, then have the fleet pound on the DS2" especially if the Fleet could accomplish both goals is military stupidty at it's height. You're risking troops and nearly your entire fleet on a silly idealogy of saving a few sentients in the face of total defeat?

[Deathstalker]

Ghostrider, this is why I think Death Stars have shields. Link

Either they were not operational on the DS2 or they take time to "warm up" to operational status.

[Stormbringer]

Coruscant also has important properties other then just a single shield generator. Literally an attack of that nautre on Coruscant one would have to use caution since BDZing Coruscant wouldn't just lower a Generator.

Actually, Ackbar had proposed a blockade but they rejected it on the basis that a protracted seige would have unacceptable political reprecussions. Instead they were forced to try an equally risky operation in order to drop the sheilds.

Remember they only knew that the DS2 was non operational.

The whole plan to go "Raid the generator, then have the fleet pound on the DS2" especially if the Fleet could accomplish both goals is military stupidty at it's height. You're risking troops and nearly your entire fleet on a silly idealogy of saving a few sentients in the face of total defeat?

I'm not arguing that it makes sound military sense. But the simple fact is if they could have brought down the sheild with the ships, they chose not to. Presuming that all the calculations are accurate they should have been able to. So the only option we're left is that they chose not to for idealogical reasons.

[Ghost Rider]

Ghostrider, this is why I think Death Stars have shields. Link

Either they were not operational on the DS2 or they take time to "warm up" to operational status.

I've read it and it still does not show that the DS1 had some way of halting Starfighter. The shields protected them from the debris that came from Alderran destruction but were easily penetrated by X-Wings and Y-Wings. They never mention any such seams.

Thus presuming that the DS2 had as a powerful shield as Endor would be fruitless given the Emperor was bluffing and so far nothing is presented in canon to actually contradict said statement.

[Ghost Rider]

Coruscant also has important properties other then just a single shield generator. Literally an attack of that nautre on Coruscant one would have to use caution since BDZing Coruscant wouldn't just lower a Generator.

Actually, Ackbar had proposed a blockade but they rejected it on the basis that a protracted seige would have unacceptable political reprecussions. Instead they were forced to try an equally risky operation in order to drop the sheilds.

Different circumstances given what Endor was vs what Coruscant was

Remember they only knew that the DS2 was non operational.

The whole plan to go "Raid the generator, then have the fleet pound on the DS2" especially if the Fleet could accomplish both goals is military stupidty at it's height. You're risking troops and nearly your entire fleet on a silly idealogy of saving a few sentients in the face of total defeat?

I'm not arguing that it makes sound military sense. But the simple fact is if they could have brought down the sheild with the ships, they chose not to. Presuming that all the calculations are accurate they should have been able to. So the only option we're left is that they chose not to for idealogical reasons.

But we cannot apply that they are saps. It's a subjective view...literally on a wholly objective view we have to find out why they couldn't take down the generator from orbit.

The facts fit easier if the fleet had no way of destroying the shield generator vs they were saps and risked the entire operation and the Alliance's existence on not doing the obvious thing.

[Stormbringer]

Different circumstances given what Endor was vs what Coruscant was

But they were still willing to avoid an obvious and expedient military solution in favor of a riskier operation that's more likely to result in casualties.

But we cannot apply that they are saps. It's a subjective view...literally on a wholly objective view we have to find out why they couldn't take down the generator from orbit.

And the possibility that they simply are that sappy has to be taken into account. I'd dearly love to hear why it is they couldn't even attempt to down the shield.

The facts fit easier if the fleet had no way of destroying the shield generator vs they were saps and risked the entire operation and the Alliance's existence on not doing the obvious thing.

They would fit more easily. But I see no reason they couldn't take down the shield.

[Rogue 9]

In one of the EU novels (I think it may have been an early one in the X-Wing series, but I'm not sure) Leia mentioned that Mon Mothma had been loathe to attack the Death Star with the Emperor on board at first, not wishing to commit political assassination and lower herself to his level. Leia, Ackbar, and Madine had to talk her into it. Given that she was unwilling to assassinate the man most responsible for their situation in the first place, I would think that she would refuse to order a BDZ of Endor.

[Ghost Rider]

Then either of you show beyond dialogue a reason that made them NOT use the fleet to disable the shield.

Storm has brought up they loathe to do so, Rogue uses EU to back up they are saps.

This still does not dissuade that WHY didn't they use the fleet to commence a small scale assualt on Endor. Be it small scale bombardment or large scale land assault.

Literally all Sappy, tree hugging aside...any objective reason why they couldn't?

Why not do a two pronged assualt of a MAJOR force landing on Endor?

Why have a small strike force, capture a shuttle, capture a code, all to accomplish what could've been done by a major military strike which this was?

Literally the scenario is either there is some unknown reason why they couldn't militarily accomplish the Endor objectives opr the shield prevented any sort of major landing thus they needed the inflitration route.

[NhikRath]

So you're saying why didn't they split the fleet up into two parts: one would attack the Death Star and one would attack the shield generator? You're asking why they didn't split up their forces? Howabout this somewhat obvious reason: what would keep the Imperial fleet from just attacking the rebel division that's trying to take down the shield generator? If that force fails, the other is useless. I guess that's why they didn't do it.

The use of a small covert force makes total sense in the light of superior numbers and force. Remember that Han, Luke, and Leia weren't surprised to see the Executor-class Star Destroyer at Endor: they knew the rebel fleet would be going up against a superior force. It was the fact that the rebel fleet was lured so close to the Death Star, and then trapped by the Imperial Fleet, that screwed them over. Why would you split up your fleet if you know you're already outgunned? That seems kinda silly.

[Ghost Rider]

So you're saying why didn't they split the fleet up into two parts: one would attack the Death Star and one would attack the shield generator? You're asking why they didn't split up their forces? Howabout this somewhat obvious reason: what would keep the Imperial fleet from just attacking the rebel division that's trying to take down the shield generator? If that force fails, the other is useless. I guess that's why they didn't do it.

The use of a small covert force makes total sense in the light of superior numbers and force. Remember that Han, Luke, and Leia weren't surprised to see the Executor-class Star Destroyer at Endor: they knew the rebel fleet would be going up against a superior force. It was the fact that the rebel fleet was lured so close to the Death Star, and then trapped by the Imperial Fleet, that screwed them over. Why would you split up your fleet if you know you're already outgunned? That seems kinda silly.

Let's see so how does this show that Endor had a semi shield again?

I am asking for someone to prove that they could not do anything except a small party to inflitrate Endor to get to a bunker to disable a shield so that their main fleet could then attack the Death Star aside from the Rebels are tree Huggers who feel that doing a small bombardment upon said planet wouldn't destroy said generator in the first place.

I am asking for objective proof to see is the Endor shield ONLY protecting the Death Star and the small fraction of Endor.

[NhikRath]

I am asking for someone to prove that they could not do anything except...

It's kinda impossible to prove a negative. They obviously could have done anything other than what they did, it's impossible to prove otherwise. They could have just gone home and played Counter-Strike.

I am asking for objective proof to see is the Endor shield ONLY protecting the Death Star and the small fraction of Endor.

I'd have to say that the diagram on Home One that showed the shield protecting the Death Star and the small fraction of atmosphere between the shield generator and the Death Star is my main reason for believing that it did just that. Of course there is a possibility that this diagram was an abstraction, and not actually based on technical relevance, but then there's also a greater possibility that it did actually have technical relevance to what the shield was actually doing.

[Connor MacLeod]

Jesus fucking christ. Why is this argument still occuring?

[NhikRath]

You're right, I'll go play video games now and watch Survivor.

Seriously, this argument is not the worst of things that we could be partaking in.

[Ghost Rider]

Okay...here goes.

I want someone to show that did the shield covered only the DS2 and a small part of Endor

Because unless the Rebellion are complete FUCKTARD MORONS; A larger military strike from either orbit or with a larger group would've had a grerater chance of success then implementing a single strike force of 20-30 troops to destroy a bunker.

Literally so far I've gotten nothing, tree hugging and ideals.

Let's see.

The novel describes the shield being a web like grid with Endor being at the center.[Page 82]

On another page they mention that Endor and the Death Star both lost the shield around them[Page 168-169]

Thus unless someone can present Movie proof otherwise(and if I hear the hologram I want to hear how the Rebellion knows this said shield only protects the DS2 and not flash fry the generator from orbit).

It stand that the shield protected both fully.

[Ghost Rider]

And for exact

[page 82 3rd paragraph]

Vader, Piett, and Jhoof watched the viewscreen in the control room, as the wbe like deflector grid readout parted to admit the Shuttle...

[Page 168-169]
Ackbar looked at the viewscreen; the electronic generated web was gone. The moon and the Death Star ,now floated, in black, empty, unprotected space

[Rogue 9]

Okay, conceded.

This now leaves the question of how that one generator shielded the entire moon.