The Force & How it Works

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-05 01:59pm

I don't think this has been posted before (I did an archive board search for Force physics thermodynamics to see if it had come up before...), so here it is.

How, within the laws of physics, could the Force conceivably "work"? There are, of course, at least two "layers" of the Force to consider: the precognitive side and the telekinetic side.

So, anybody have any thoughts that aren't "it can't work, don't try"?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-05 02:00pm

Do you mean

How does it do what it does?

or

How does it affect what it does?

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-05 02:03pm

How about both? I'm not entirely sure what the distinction you're making with your questions is, though...

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-05-05 02:05pm

In order to determine how it works, you'd have to first determine the mechanism that lets people interact with it. We've never been given any example of a mechanism outside of possibly medichlorines that can explain it. and then i don't think we've ever been told how they work, which is rather irrelevant to the story in general.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-05 02:12pm

The first is asking what is the Force perse as an energy field that physically grasps or an outside force that somehow bends matter and energy to obey it.

The other is what does the Force and it's effects.

One we can give no answer but what is given...an energy field that binds the universe, because nothing else is given. Literally an outside agency that does obey certain constants.

The other we can give some quantified examples from what we can observe

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-05 02:22pm

Oh, I see. Well, my intention was to try to hash out an explanation for the following:

What is it?
Where does it come from?
How does it achieve the effects it achieves?

Beyond the vague "it's an energy field that comes from living things and moves stuff."

I suppose it'd be meritorious to lay down what we do know and then extrapolate from there.

We know that midichlorians are microscopic lifeforms found within all living cells that allow an individual to "sense the Will of the Force." IIRC, they have been likened to mitochondria in some respects.

We know that the Force itself is an "energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the Galaxy together."

There are two aspects of the Force: the "living Force" and the "unifying Force," but I don't know of any of the specifics on those two...

I'm certain there's more to be added to that.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-05-05 03:00pm

Let me take a crack at this.

1. The Force is an "energy field" that "surrounds and penetrates" the galaxy's inhabitants and "binds the galaxy together". There are different ways of interpreting this. The Force could be a phenomenon unique to the SW galaxy (although the Vong kind of muddle this). By "energy field" they likely mean just that: The galaxy has a "Force field" just like anything has a gravitic or magnetic field. This force would be a lot more complex however, because while it interacts with forces like gravity and electromagnetism those forces are neither the cause nor the source of the phenomenon.

2. This ubiquitous, observable energy field is generated by organic life forms. This is where things start to get fuzzy. From what I know, there's no distinction between carbon and silica based life forms. Furthermore, Vonglife and things like ysalamiri do not contribute to the force and exist independently of it. Artificial life such as droids are also outside the Force. So wherever the Force gets its power, it is likely some form of biochemical process. It is not known exactly what process or how the energy from that gets converted and stored in the Force. Everything in Jedi philosophy says that life creates the Force, and the Force is always stronger in places rich with life.

3. The Force is a sentient being. It has a rudimentary will that it imposes on the galaxy it supposedly sustains. It is not a single consciousness however, but the culmination of the knowledge and experiences of the lives that created it. In the SW galaxy, the Force provides a sort of afterlife, in that the minds of people who die become one with the Force as their life energy returns to the Force. For this reason, the spirits of those strong in the Force can return as visable beings, and the souls of the dead can possess the living.

4. The Force can, to a limited extent, be controlled by living beings. It is not known by what means living things can sense and interact with the Force, or what role the midichlorian microbes play in that. What is known is that it is an innate ability that can only be refined, not learned. This says that the trait is entirely genetic, hereditary and selectable. Although Force attunement is passed on from parent to offspring, it is not failproof, and it is not uncommon for Forceblind parents to yield Force sensitive offspring. Also, the Force can fertilize organisms on its own. Creating a sort of "virgin birth". Because Force sensitivity is a selectable trait, there are entire species where every individual is Force sensitive. The aforementioned ysalamiri have evolved the ability to nullify the Force and keep it at bay. This is a defense mechanism to protect them from the contemporary vornskrs, who have evolved hightened hunting senses through the Force.

At least that's my interpretation of it.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-05 03:08pm

This just occured to me after reading what you said...I don't suppose that the midichlorians could be some kind of unique lifeform that exist on the premise of quantum entanglement, thus allowing indivudals to sense shifts in what happens to the midichlorians from even hundreds or thousands of light years away (Ben's instant reaction to Alderaan's destruction, for instance)?

Further, could the Force perhaps refer to a Unified Field, much as the UFT hopes to unify all four fundamental forces? In that way, manipulating the "Force" would be simply applying familiar fundamental forces. But that presents the question: where does the input energy to do this come from, and how are these fields generated and controlled?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-05-05 03:25pm

Personally, I tend to see the Force as a giant organism rather than an inanimate energy field. I don't think the midichlorians are the cause/medium of Force activity. While they appear in higher concentrations in organisms more powerful in the Force, we really have no idea what that means. For all we know, they could be a mundane bacterium that is attracted to some other byproduct of Force sensitivity.

As I stated before, the Force is a sentient being with a will. While the physical aspects are pretty cut and dried (telekinesis, lightning) the medium of comunication between the omnipresent Force and its biological components is unknown. Since telepathic messages can be sent instantaneously across thousands of parsecs, the telepathy is transmitted through the Force, which is everywhere in the galaxy. However, we do not know how the neurons in a persons brain communicate with it.

Actually, we don't know much about the Force at all. Period. Since I'm fucking lazy, I tend to just think of it as magic. But for lack of a better analogy, the whole galaxy is a giant organism. The individual living components are like cells. Contributing to the whole.

A kid playing in a sandbox isn't some Unified field. He's the sum of the sandbox's living components exerting physical force on the sandbox's nonliving components. The components (cells) communicate with each other via the kid's unique biochemical processes.

Blah. I tried to make that as coherent as possible.

*head explodes*

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-05 03:52pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:Personally, I tend to see the Force as a giant organism rather than an inanimate energy field. I don't think the midichlorians are the cause/medium of Force activity. While they appear in higher concentrations in organisms more powerful in the Force, we really have no idea what that means. For all we know, they could be a mundane bacterium that is attracted to some other byproduct of Force sensitivity.

Sure, that's certainly possible. What I was getting at with the quantum entanglement idea is that the midichlorians are this giant organism -- a collective conscience that can instantaneously share data due to being partially or totally entangled with one another.

However, we do not know how the neurons in a persons brain communicate with it.

I would assume here that there'd have to be some form of mechanism for communication between the synapses in the brain and the midichlorians (assuming my above postulate is true).

Actually, we don't know much about the Force at all. Period. Since I'm fucking lazy, I tend to just think of it as magic.

Yeah, but one could just easily call hyperspace magic. If it can happen, then it must have a scientific explanation--right? Isn't that the whole premise of this entire site?

A kid playing in a sandbox isn't some Unified field. He's the sum of the sandbox's living components exerting physical force on the sandbox's nonliving components. The components (cells) communicate with each other via the kid's unique biochemical processes.

A kid isn't thousands of parsecs across, though. The neural signals do not need to either be FTL or entangled in order to communicate nearly instantaneously.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-05 03:56pm

Actually with the Force the best explaination is what's given.

You can observe it and calculate it's effects but to say where it's from given the source never once touches it, would all be assumptions on our part of a mechanism we have nothing to base upon.

Be no different then if some being shooting fireballs from his hand and trying to explain magic. We can observe and explain the results but as to how does he do it....we have no basis, except he/she must manipulate a field of energy we have not labeled beyond our observation.

BoyRocketeer · Post by **BoyRocketeer** » 2004-05-05 06:10pm

so does it have to do with strong, weak nuclear force or such, or is it on another whole new dimension?

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2004-05-05 06:17pm

The easiest explanation:

the force is a similar thing like magic.

BoyRocketeer · Post by **BoyRocketeer** » 2004-05-05 06:21pm

HRogge wrote:The easiest explanation:

the force is a similar thing like magic.

yeah, but you don't hear harry potter fans argue much about the physics of magical attacks.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-05 06:24pm

BoyRocketeer wrote:so does it have to do with strong, weak nuclear force or such, or is it on another whole new dimension?

No. "The Force" is just what it's called.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-05-05 06:25pm

BoyRocketeer wrote:so does it have to do with strong, weak nuclear force or such, or is it on another whole new dimension?

we simply don't know. there isn't enough information to go by.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-05-06 12:14am

McC wrote:Sure, that's certainly possible. What I was getting at with the quantum entanglement idea is that the midichlorians are this giant organism -- a collective conscience that can instantaneously share data due to being partially or totally entangled with one another.

So the midichlorians would be eucharyotic. Sort of like neurons that communicate through this "organized" entanglement. I think you might be on to something. This begs the question of what biochem functions they leech to get their power, how they manipulate genetic material. And exactly what is this Force that they exert to control mundane matter and energy.

A kid isn't thousands of parsecs across, though. The neural signals do not need to either be FTL or entangled in order to communicate nearly instantaneously.

No, but the basic premise is the same. Simply replace the neural synapses with our x mechanism. In this case, we can use your quantum entanglement. Unfortunately, with the data at hand, this can never be more than pure speculation. I doubt we'll ever be provided with sufficient data to form a theory based on hard facts though. That said, I don't know of anything out there that would contradict this.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-06 12:23am

*nod* There seems to be an awful lot of concern about the fact that we have no data to compare whatever we come up with against. I ask: so what? Why not get a theory that works, even if it's not based on anything more than observation of effects? As long as what we come up with doesn't contradict anything else, I don't see any reason not to go ahead and speculate.

That said...

You wrote:This begs the question of what biochem functions they leech to get their power, how they manipulate genetic material. And exactly what is this Force that they exert to control mundane matter and energy.

The former is particularly difficult, given that we've never heard of anyone feeling cold as a result of using the Force (which would suggest that the source of their energy would be drawing from surrounding body heat or some such). I'm definitely not a biology guy, though, so this is way outside the realm of my limited knowledge.

As to what the force exerted is, am I mistaken in recalling reading somewhere that EM fields can affect neutral particles? Lemme see if I can dig it up...If that's the case, then perhaps it's some kind of manifestation of (un?)conscious EM field manipulation.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-06 12:28am

I really don't see this as a good idea, to be honest. It's like trying to scientificise God or magic: it just doesn't work like that.

The Force is not science, it's metaphysics.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-06 12:33am

Some interesting things that popped up as a result of 'electromagnetic "manipulate neutral particles"'.

Discusses manipulating neutral particles optically

And I dunno how legit this is, but apparently this guy talks about a UFT.

Spanky: Nothing unreal exists. Besides, it doesn't hurt to try does it?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-05-06 12:48am

McC wrote:The former is particularly difficult, given that we've never heard of anyone feeling cold as a result of using the Force (which would suggest that the source of their energy would be drawing from surrounding body heat or some such). I'm definitely not a biology guy, though, so this is way outside the realm of my limited knowledge.

One solitary life form doesn't generate enough energy to do some of the things we se Force users do. I was thinking more that the galaxy's entire biomass contributes to some kind of "power bank" by means unknown on which Force users draw to use their tricks.

Spanky the Dolphin wrote:I really don't see this as a good idea, to be honest. It's like trying to scientificise God or magic: it just doesn't work like that.

If God or magic were real, wouldn't we have to "scientificise" them as well?

The Force is not science, it's metaphysics.

So throw your arms up in the air and go "I don't know and no one cares!"? Speculation on unknown phenomena in a sci-fi universe isn't hurting anything.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-06 01:01am

Lazy Raptor wrote:One solitary life form doesn't generate enough energy to do some of the things we se Force users do. I was thinking more that the galaxy's entire biomass contributes to some kind of "power bank" by means unknown on which Force users draw to use their tricks.

Power like this would have to have some kind of physical capacitor or battery to store it, wouldn't it? You can't just have free-floating Joules waiting to be used, can you? What's the current scientific stance on quantum vacuum energy? Can it be feasibly tapped? If so, perhaps the midichlorians act as a sort of conduit for QVE which can then be used to achieve particular results. Is it reasonable to postulate that telekinetic effects could result from an increase in the amplitude and alteration of the polarity of the human EMF? I don't know anything about the human EMF other than it exists, so I'm just tossing out ideas here in the hopes that it produces a spark in someone's mind who knows more on the topic than I do.

jenat-lai · Post by **jenat-lai** » 2004-05-06 03:17am

the force is metaphysics, not physics. It's like explaining Conciousness in Quantam Mechanics. Done, but a little dumb.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-06 03:21am

metaphysics: The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value

physics: The science of matter and energy and of interactions between the two, grouped in traditional fields such as acoustics, optics, mechanics, thermodynamics, and electromagnetism, as well as in modern extensions including atomic and nuclear physics, cryogenics, solid-state physics, particle physics, and plasma physics.

Metaphysics is a philosophical branch. The Force has manifested, measurable effects, disqualifying it from metaphysics.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2004-05-06 06:21am

[Crackpot New Age theorist] Before the Big Bang everything was a single überparticle, and with the Big Bang, that particle broke up into new particles and energy. Therefore every particle in the universe is entangled to every other particle in the universe. [/crackpot New Age theorist]

If you use this very crackpotty theory you can explain why the Midichlorians are entangled and why they/force sensitives can manipulate everything. If all energy is entangled too, then they can use energy from other places to do what they do. But it can't explain why certain beings are outside of the Force. Perhaps they somehow got un-entangled...

Ah, hell, just shoot me before I become any wackier!